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#2265185 - 04/22/14 06:02 AM Schubert concert tune
de villiers Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 6
I have contacted quite a few piano tuners in South Africa,
and none of them know what I am talking about if I mention above tuning. The piano is a Grotrian Steinweg Mod 185.
Is there any literature I can give the tuner that will enable
him to do this tuning? (even with electronic tuning)
de Villiers

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#2265186 - 04/22/14 06:16 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Where did you hear about it? What context?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2265189 - 04/22/14 06:42 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1241
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
There is a tremendous resource at Jason Kanter's site. Rollingball.com

I wouldn't call it Schubert tuning, but rather well-temperament. I have a number of words written for one side of the controversy at my web sites, listed under my signature line.
Hope that helps
Regards,

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#2265214 - 04/22/14 08:22 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Ed Sutton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 42
This is the Holy Grail tuning of Perri Knize's book _Grand Obsession_.
She has a Grotrian Steinweg piano.
You can hear it on http://www.grandobsession.com/
There is no historic connection with Schubert.

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#2265220 - 04/22/14 08:46 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1677
Loc: Chicagoland
If any of the techs use the Verituner software or electronic tuning device, I can give them information to emulate the tuning in the book.

In aural terms, the temperament is set a bit narrower than normal to get a little sweeter sound to the thirds. (favoring a 4:2, balanced with a 2:1 - about 70% 4:2 and 30% 2:1)

Going up, transition to a pure 4:2 octave by A5. By A6, lean towards the 4:1 double octave - about 60% 4:1 and 40% 4:2. Transition to a 4:1 double octave by the top

Going down from the temperament, start bringing in the 6:3 to fully transition to a pure 6:3 by A2 - balance between a 4:2 and 6:3 to guide the transition. Going down to A1, start leaning towards the 4:1 double octave - 80% 4:1 by A1. For the bottom octave, lean towards the 12:6 octave for depth - about 75%, checked with the 6:3 about 25%.

The above is based on the the electronic tuning file for her specific piano. I used that to set a tuning on another piano of the same model - close serial numbers. Then used the Verituner balancing function style creator to match the stretch the best I was able.

Ron Koval
_________________________
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#2265380 - 04/22/14 03:45 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
That's the first time I've heard anyone speak of "Treble Temperament". Very informative. Every aural technician should be making conscious decisions on how they are tuning treble octaves, IMHO, even if it is the same way each time. In the very least, it produces consistent stretch from one tuning to the next, saving on tuning time.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2265703 - 04/23/14 04:58 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
de villiers Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 6
In the book written by Peri Knize "Grand Obssesion"
a piano tuner Marc Weinberg tuned a Grotrian with
a Schubert concert tune

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#2265893 - 04/23/14 03:12 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Originally Posted By: de villiers
I have contacted quite a few piano tuners in South Africa,
and none of them know what I am talking about if I mention above tuning. The piano is a Grotrian Steinweg Mod 185.
Is there any literature I can give the tuner that will enable
him to do this tuning? (even with electronic tuning)
de Villiers


de Villiers, what temperament do you usually have your piano tuned in?

What part of South Africa are you from?

Regards,
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2265955 - 04/23/14 05:38 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2362
Loc: Lowell MA
My good friend and colleague Marc Wienert created the "Schubert Tuning".

It is something that exists between Marc and Perry and it is a specific tangible result.

I am familiar with what Marc did for Perry, though I would recommend talking to Marc about it, presuming he is willing.
_________________________
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Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
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978 458 8688
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#2266711 - 04/25/14 03:07 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Mark Davis]
de villiers Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 6
My tuner says he tuned the piano with an equal temperamant. Also said something about 4.2.
I live on the East Rand Gauteng

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#2266715 - 04/25/14 03:21 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: RonTuner]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Well, Ron Koval, in one of the earlier posts has given some advice on how to go about tuning what you are looking for. So, hopefully your tuner can assist you.

All of the best,
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2266790 - 04/25/14 08:57 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1677
Loc: Chicagoland
Like any of the differing stretch approaches to setting equal temperament on a piano, the effect can vary based on the listener. To most, there won't be any difference heard, or it may be a very subtle change. To the author of the book, the effect the tuning had on her was enough to go looking for again; to find the tech that had been doing the tuning for the piano store...

An aural tech can approximate the result by just favoring 4ths over 5ths when setting the temperament - and then expanding out favoring double octaves over single octaves.


Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2268502 - 04/29/14 04:00 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
de villiers Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 6
Thank you all for the informative and knowledgable replies
to my post. My tuner contacted Ron Koval, and he will be tuning the Grotrian Steinweg in the near future.
Without your help, I would have always wondered about
the tonal quality of the Schubert concert tune.
de Villiers

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#2268849 - 04/29/14 08:57 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

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#2268919 - 04/29/14 11:07 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: pianoloverus]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 902
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

If that is the case, why are instruments tuned at all, and why have musicians and composers agonized over tunings for hundreds of years? The music that composers write presupposes some form of organization of the relations between notes that they want to hear and expect the listener to hear. Is it not our job to try our best to provide that foundation on which to perform their music?

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#2269154 - 04/30/14 04:07 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 860
Loc: Seattle
Tuning and temperament methodology can indeed have a profound influence on "composer intent." Yes, the instrument is the medium but the tuning is the foundation. Can you imagine Debussy in Quarter Comma Meantone? Eekk!
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#2269191 - 04/30/14 05:49 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: pianoloverus]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

In a very basic sense, this is true. But so much added pleasure, for the listener and performer alike, is derived when the instrument receives a tuning which is "from within the piano" rather than "applied to it." The best of tuners listen to the instrument and don't just go by the numbers on an ETD.

Even ET is tempered. Some attempts are better than others.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2269199 - 04/30/14 05:57 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 761
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

In a very basic sense, this is true. But so much added pleasure, for the listener and performer alike, is derived when the instrument receives a tuning which is "from within the piano" rather than "applied to it." The best of tuners listen to the instrument and don't just go by the numbers on an ETD.

Even ET is tempered. Some attempts are better than others.

I think pianoloverus may have been referring to a "type" of temperament rather than quality of tuning.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2269212 - 04/30/14 06:29 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Chris Leslie]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think the skill of the pianist and basic tonal quality of the piano are incredibly more important than the type of tuning used.

In a very basic sense, this is true. But so much added pleasure, for the listener and performer alike, is derived when the instrument receives a tuning which is "from within the piano" rather than "applied to it." The best of tuners listen to the instrument and don't just go by the numbers on an ETD.

Even ET is tempered. Some attempts are better than others.

I think pianoloverus may have been referring to a "type" of temperament rather than quality of tuning.

I believe that the two things are completely intertwined. Whether ET or UT, a good tuner brings out those "little extras" which may be inherent in a fine piano, but have never been drawn from, or tended to, in the instrument.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2270213 - 05/02/14 02:05 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2362
Loc: Lowell MA
Hello All,

I spent the day in Manhattan NY yesterday with Marc Weinert. I mentioned this thread and the comments.

So far, what is described here is not the "Schubert" tuning. Marc suggested I mention this here.

It is unlikely Marc would be inclined to post here.

Guessing is not likely to come up with the correct answer. Perhaps Perry would be willing to say something here.

Ron K will do a very good tuning but not the Schubert tuning.

.

Larry
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#2270263 - 05/02/14 04:13 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Being so shrouded in mystery, has 'the quest for the Schubert Tuning' now taken on the aura of "the search for the Holy Grail?"

wink
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2272209 - 05/07/14 06:14 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
de villiers Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 6
I am at a lost to understand how it is possible that apparently only
Marc is able to do a Schubert tuning.(Implication of Marty,s last post)Being a Clinical Psychologist of profession, I cannot help to wonder why the values on
Perry,s piano(on an Accutuner) are kept secret?
I am sure that very many pianists around the world,would like to hear how this tuning sound,especially now that Perry,s book is translated into German and Italian.

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#2272218 - 05/07/14 06:47 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1612
Loc: The Netherlands
@de_villiers.. As far as I know Marc tunes pianos for a living.. So why can't he keep it a secret? Do you think he needs to throw away his intellectual property?


Edited by wimpiano (05/07/14 06:47 AM)
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Schimmel 116 S ...

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#2272258 - 05/07/14 08:17 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Also, it would diminish some of the mystery involved in the book.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2272274 - 05/07/14 08:41 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2362
Loc: Lowell MA
@de_villiers,

BTW, Marc tunes by ear only. The values inserted into an Accutuner were for a local tuner to be able to provide Perry a result without Marc. The parameters for Marc's "Schubert" tuning are Marc's intellectual property. There should be respect for that.

Thank You Marty and wimpiano.

The "Schubert" tuning is a result created by Marc and named by Perry.

In a recent conversation with Marc, I was commenting on Murray Perahih's interpretation of Schubert and Marc commented on his motivation for the "Schubert" tuning.

Murray Perahia does play Schubert beautifully.

Cheers,
Larry
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#2272277 - 05/07/14 09:00 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: Larry Buck]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Murray Perahia does play Schubert beautifully.

Murray Perahia plays beautifully!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2272359 - 05/07/14 12:34 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2362
Loc: Lowell MA
Marty,

I have some of his recordings in my car .... Boston traffic doesn't seem so bad during the commute time.
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#2326592 - 09/11/14 11:07 PM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
everything i know about what the schubert concert tuning is is already in my book, grand obsession. anything i wrote here would just be a repeat of what i wrote there.

marc created the tuning for me. it has to be adapted to the piano it is put on. just taking the numbers from the accutuner doesn't work because it's not going to sound the same on another piano.

but, having said that, you can ask your technician to give you a quieter, more narrow tuning, i.e. one that has a narrower stretch characteristic. tell him you want something that will sound good with schubert, or mozart. i believe marc said he strove for pure octaves. but again, reference the book. it's all in there.

you may not even like it. not everyone responds to the same thing.
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#2326661 - 09/12/14 04:13 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: de villiers
I am at a lost to understand how it is possible that apparently only


I am sure that very many pianists around the world,would like to hear how this tuning sound,especially now that Perry,s book is translated into German and Italian.



And in French (trad Marc Valdeyron).

I just like to know if it is an equal temp or no.

Of course even on a similar piano numbers from a ETD would only give an approximation.

At some point in carrier, many ("aural", I hate that terminology) tuners prefer low "natural" stretch, if they have been used to add some on top of their octaves.

possibly also the high spectra presence lowers in the ear of aging tuners an they like or hear better the mellow tone of non stretched octaves.






Edited by Olek (09/12/14 04:19 AM)
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#2326680 - 09/12/14 06:55 AM Re: Schubert concert tune [Re: de villiers]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1677
Loc: Chicagoland
Yes, equal temperament.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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