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#2265516 - 04/22/14 08:17 PM Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck
Marko in Boston Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 611
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Well done PianoManChuck! Great explanation. ( OT: Check out all his stuff on YouTube if you have a chance. Everything he does is so entertaining and thoroughly informative)







Edited by Marko in Boston (04/22/14 08:25 PM)

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#2265525 - 04/22/14 08:38 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Phlox Offline
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Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 106
Loc: The Netherlands
Great explanation !!

THX PianoManChuck !! Looking forward to the next in this series smile




Great find Marko

EDIT: Typo


Edited by Phlox (04/22/14 08:40 PM)
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#2265540 - 04/22/14 08:51 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
lolatu Online   content
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Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 242
Loc: UK
After 10 minutes of explanation, I still don't get what the third sensor adds - why not just put the first sensor lower down, where the second sensor is in the triple sensor arrangement? Maybe the first sensor is required to sense when the key is lifted far enough to apply the dampers?

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#2265549 - 04/22/14 08:59 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8427
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Yep, nicely done. wink

James
x
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#2265552 - 04/22/14 09:06 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: lolatu]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8427
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: lolatu
After 10 minutes of explanation, I still don't get what the third sensor adds...


May I refer you to the explanation (and audio clips) on this page:

http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11/detail/touch/

Cheers,
James
x
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#2265570 - 04/22/14 09:47 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Kawai James]
lolatu Online   content
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Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
May I refer you to the explanation (and audio clips) on this page:

http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11/detail/touch/

You may, but that still doesn't tell me what Sensor 1 is bringing to the party in the diagram. If you only need sensors 2 and 3 to sense velocity for your repetitions, what's Sensor 1 for?



edit: it says "allows the sound of a single note to be gradually ‘layered’ without the previous tone being lost.". I guess this means it's so that the damper isn't applied, like I mentioned above, and is not mentioned in Chuck's video.


Edited by lolatu (04/22/14 09:50 PM)

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#2265574 - 04/22/14 09:54 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: lolatu]
ando Offline
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Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3348
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
May I refer you to the explanation (and audio clips) on this page:

http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11/detail/touch/

You may, but that still doesn't tell me what Sensor 1 is bringing to the party in the diagram. If you only need sensors 2 and 3 to sense velocity for your repetitions, what's Sensor 1 for?



The first sensor lifts the damper. if you trill only between sensors 2 and 3 without lifting high enough to reach sensor 1, you have the notes overlapping each other, which is a smoother sound. On a 2 sensor action, a trill cuts off each note each time it's released. I actually believe Pianomanchuck doesn't understand this - he was referring only to the fact that you can trill faster with a 3 sensor action, but it's also about the fact that notes don't get cut off on a shallow trill.

Having 3 sensors also makes for a more accurate judgement of the travel of the hammer too. The velocity may be slightly decreasing or increasing through the keystroke. 3 sensors can somewhat allow for this. 2 sensors can't do it at all.

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#2265575 - 04/22/14 09:55 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: lolatu]
Kawai James Offline
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Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: lolatu
If you only need sensors 2 and 3 to sense velocity for your repetitions, what's Sensor 1 for?


To detect when the key is released.

James
x
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Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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#2265583 - 04/22/14 10:03 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
TheodorN Online   content
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I'm not sure I understand it completely, but PianoManChuck said the third sensor was needed for fast repeats, like trills. If you have only two sensors, you have to lift your finger(s) high enough to trigger the first sensor, so it can measure the speed, by computing the distance between the two sensors.

If you have three sensors, the second one is triggered somewhere between the first and third, that is triggered just before you release the key. Thus, the speed can be calculated without lifting your finger completely up from the key, because the distance between sensors two and three is known.

By playing repeatedly the same key without releasing the key (all the way up) you never trigger the first sensor, when you have only two. That way the piano can't measure the speed, as it has no starting point to build on, for measuring a distance in a fixed time period, between some ( or not defined) point to the place where the latter sensor is triggered.

Let me emphasize these reflections are more of a guess, than a thorough understanding of the subject.
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#2265594 - 04/22/14 10:26 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
MiguelAngel07 Offline
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Registered: 10/03/13
Posts: 68
I am only guessing as well, but I think the higher sensor is kept to avoid loosing resolution in the calculation of velocity. The longer the distance between the two sensors, the longer it takes for the key to travel, the more acurate the velocity calculation (velocity = distance / time), which translates in increased sensitivity to the pianist touch.

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#2265599 - 04/22/14 10:32 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Musical Dan Offline
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Registered: 05/27/10
Posts: 38
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I doubt the development will stop with three sensor. I can see potential use for up to 5 sensors (or possibly more). The fourth sensor you could use for half damper (rather than using the pedal). You could also have one more sensor very close to the top sensor to accurately calculate the key-off velocity.

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#2265660 - Yesterday at 01:20 AM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Musical Dan]
doremi Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1692
Originally Posted By: Musical Dan
I doubt the development will stop with three sensor. I can see potential use for up to 5 sensors (or possibly more). The fourth sensor you could use for half damper (rather than using the pedal). You could also have one more sensor very close to the top sensor to accurately calculate the key-off velocity.

Technology already exists to measure distances such as key travel with practically infinite resolution, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidar Software can then actuate an arbitrary high number of events to happen as the key travels.
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#2265698 - Yesterday at 04:40 AM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
peterws Online   content
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Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3167
Loc: Northern England.
Will somebody explain how a single sensor DP can still reproduce different tonal quality when hitting notes at different speeds? Because it has been mentioned that the Yamaha CP1 had only one sensor; is that true?
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#2265711 - Yesterday at 05:29 AM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Phlox Offline
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Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 106
Loc: The Netherlands
Indeed Doremi, if we talk about advancing technology with more sensors, why not use optics ??
Then you can calculate and measure a much higher resolution.

These rubber contacts are being used for ages now. And can wear and get dirty.

So time for a new and better method I think.
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#2265716 - Yesterday at 06:06 AM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: peterws]
toddy Online   content
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Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1321
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: peterws
Will somebody explain how a single sensor DP can still reproduce different tonal quality when hitting notes at different speeds? Because it has been mentioned that the Yamaha CP1 had only one sensor; is that true?


If it measured how hard the key or hammer came thumping down, then that would be sufficient to sense velocity - and therefore timbre etc.

Or a single sensor with a timing circuit - that could do it too. The longer the contact, the lower the velocity.
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#2265718 - Yesterday at 06:57 AM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Phlox Offline
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Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 106
Loc: The Netherlands
It puzzles me why they are still using these old rubber sensors !!
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#2265774 - Yesterday at 10:13 AM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Phlox]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3677
Loc: North Carolina
Simple: It's because they're inexpensive.
Originally Posted By: Phlox
It puzzles me why they are still using these old rubber sensors !!

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#2265777 - Yesterday at 10:16 AM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Phlox]
Lester Burnham Offline
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Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 101
Originally Posted By: Phlox
It puzzles me why they are still using these old rubber sensors !!


What should they be using instead?

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#2265829 - Yesterday at 12:51 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Phlox Offline
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Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 106
Loc: The Netherlands
Something like PNOscan. With optical sensors.
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#2265831 - Yesterday at 12:52 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Phlox]
Lester Burnham Offline
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Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 101
Originally Posted By: Phlox
Something like PNOscan. With optical sensors.


What would be the advantage, what would be the cost difference, and how do they compare in terms of service life, calibration and longevity?

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#2265833 - Yesterday at 12:57 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Phlox Offline
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Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 106
Loc: The Netherlands
No moving parts, so no wear and tear. Don't have to clean them.
And more precise.


Edited by Phlox (Yesterday at 12:57 PM)
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#2265839 - Yesterday at 01:07 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2240
Loc: UK
The Yamaha hybrids (AG and NU1) use optical sensors.

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#2265841 - Yesterday at 01:10 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4277
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: lolatu
After 10 minutes of explanation, I still don't get what the third sensor adds

Let me rewind the clock to the time I was 4 years old...

ZZzzzz.... And this was clearly edited down to 10 minutes! Presumably the part where his fetal ears perceived the first tinkling of piano while suspended in utero ended up on the cutting room floor.

He says very few DP manufacturers have triple sensor technology - yeah, only Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, Casio, etc., etc. have the nuclear secrets hard drive.

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
To detect when the key is released.

Exactly.

I'm not sure why he was saying the timing between various and sundry sensor events would be useful, particularly on the way to key down. They could be, but I kind of doubt if any DP manufacturer actually does this.

Originally Posted By: MiguelAngel07
The longer the distance between the two sensors, the longer it takes for the key to travel, the more acurate the velocity calculation (velocity = distance / time), which translates in increased sensitivity to the pianist touch.

It's actually the opposite. You want the middle and bottom sensors to be quite close to each other and as near the bottom as possible so that any variation in the velocity is averaged over a smaller interval of travel and final velocity is best measured. Timing available on even a fairly asthmatic processor is usually more than sufficient to resolve and measure events from closely spaced sensors.

You want the top sensor as near the top as possible, or at least sufficiently far away from the middle sensor, so that trills don't damp.
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#2265843 - Yesterday at 01:14 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: spanishbuddha]
Phlox Offline
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Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 106
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
The Yamaha hybrids (AG and NU1) use optical sensors.

So why not put it in the other DP's too ??
I would see this as a plus for the manufacturer.
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#2265850 - Yesterday at 01:39 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Phlox]
MacMacMac Offline
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Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3677
Loc: North Carolina
Once again ... it's all about cost.
Rubber buttons are cheap to build and cheap to assemble.
Consider that the same type of rubber buttons are used in TV remote controls ... even in those that sell for $10.
They're very inexpensive, and they work well.
Originally Posted By: Phlox
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
The Yamaha hybrids (AG and NU1) use optical sensors.
So why not put it in the other DP's too ??
I would see this as a plus for the manufacturer.

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#2265872 - Yesterday at 02:29 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Phlox Offline
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Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 106
Loc: The Netherlands
Yeah, your probably right.
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#2265965 - Yesterday at 05:52 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Phlox]
Lester Burnham Offline
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Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 101
Originally Posted By: Phlox
No moving parts, so no wear and tear. Don't have to clean them.
And more precise.


I'm just not really seeing the upside, really - it maybe cooler tech and all - which sometimes is an end in it's own right - but would it be a comprehensively better solution for the end user?

There's nearly always something that can be gummed up or affected by calibration or dust when optical stuff is used. There's also going to be repetitive vibration.

If it was cost neutral - which I doubt - then is servicability and MTBF definitely superior?

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#2266306 - Today at 07:07 AM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Marko in Boston Online   content
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Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 611
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Here's a followup video comparing triple sensor between Kawai VPC1 and Casio PX5S:


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#2266478 - Today at 03:21 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
Lester Burnham Offline
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Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 101
I tried a test similar to what PianoManChuck does, with the repeated and very small lift of the key, on my AP-245 - which should have the same action as the PX5S (common action on the current PX and AP Casio series), with triple sensors.

At first I couldn't get it to miss notes, but if I consciously tried to defeat it by only lifting the key by the smallest amount possible, I got missed notes - but I had to actively try and do so, whether I'd find that in normal playing I'm unsure - doubtful, even.

Then I tried the same test on my real piano (an upright) - this was the big surprise to me. It was almost exactly the same as my AP-245 - in fact I'd say it was slightly easier / took less effort to defeat my real piano.

Accepted I've only ever played grand pianos on truly very occasional instances, is there much difference in that sort of response between an upright piano, and a grand?

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#2266487 - Today at 03:41 PM Re: Dual vs Triple sensor technology - PianoManChuck [Re: Marko in Boston]
TheodorN Online   content
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Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: Helsingborg, Sweden
The strange thing is, the VPC1 is double the price of the PX-5S in the U.S., but Thomann (Germany) offers the VPC1 with the Ivory II American Concert D, at approximately the same price as the PX-5S, when considering what Ivory II ACD costs.

I've often thought I would have loved Kawai VPC1 instead of Casio PX-5S, but then again the piano voices of the PX-5S are quite good, it has great organ sounds, guitars, harpsichords and so on. It does have it's advantages to be free from hooking a laptop (or a smart computer) to your digital piano.

It's good to know that the tri-sensor technology of Kawai's VPC1 is superior to that of Casio's flagship, assuming this test is scientific. Regardless, the VPC1 seems a pretty advanced MIDI controller. That is of great importance, at least to European consumers.
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