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#2265644 - 04/23/14 12:32 AM Playing from photocopies
lacrymosa85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 81
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
This query will vary depending on country, but I'm interested in everyone's thoughts or experiences.

I have an AMEB Certificate of Performance exam in June and the editions of sheet music I have are very awkward for page turning.

Do you think I'll be able to photocopy the entire piece (up to 5 pages) to avoid page turning altogether, and bring in the original score?

Thanks
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#2265645 - 04/23/14 12:42 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
PianistOne111 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 292
Loc: Utah
I have participated in exam systems before, and I always played the performance portions from memory. Are you playing something particularly difficult to memorize? If it is, I think they should allow you to have a page turner. Also, in all competitions I've been in, judges have been fine with photocopies or they don't care to look at the score at all.

But if you must, there is no reason not to allow a performer to rearrange the score in a more convenient layout.


Edited by PianistOne111 (04/23/14 12:44 AM)
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#2265646 - 04/23/14 12:45 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
It's an exam, so I think you should just ask ahead of time, if you can't learn it by heart!

If you actually own the scores, my guess is that you can photocopy parts of it, but I'm not the own judging you...
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#2265648 - 04/23/14 12:52 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: PianistOne111]
lacrymosa85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 81
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: PianistOne111
I have participated in exam systems before, and I always played the performance portions from memory. Are you playing something particularly difficult to memorize? If it is, I think they should allow you to have a page turner. Also, in all competitions I've been in, judges have been fine with photocopies or they don't care to look at the score at all.

But if you must, there is no reason not to allow a performer to rearrange the score in a more convenient layout.


I've actually memorised the performance but it's been so long since I've performed that I don't think I could rely on my memory without having a memory lapse.

The sheet music is really a safety net..
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#2265748 - 04/23/14 08:51 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: PianistOne111]
Yzorah Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/10/14
Posts: 6
Loc: Canada
Do you have a syllabus that you can check? I know that the Royal Conservatory here in Canada has defined their stance on photocopies in their syllabus. Usually, if you own the original book, you are allowed to make one single photocopy, at least for practice and performance purposes.

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#2265752 - 04/23/14 08:57 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
My understanding of the RCM exam position is that if you are using RCM-published music, you are allowed to copy one single page for page-turning purposes. I always wonder, when I read this: but what if there's more than one awkward page turn?

ISTM that a safe way to proceed would be to buy a second copy of the music, detach the pages, and assemble your five-wide score that way. This may be taking excessive precautions; do see if you can get an answer from AMEB about their precise photocopy requirements and allowances for exams.
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#2265769 - 04/23/14 10:05 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: PianoStudent88]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3925
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
[...] ISTM that a safe way to proceed would be to buy a second copy of the music, detach the pages, and assemble your five-wide score that way. [...]


The only problem with that is that scores are printed front and back, hence the page turns. And believe me, you don't want to be turning loose sheets of paper! wink

To lacrymosa85, who says:

Originally Posted By: lacrymosa85
[...] I've actually memorised the performance but it's been so long since I've performed that I don't think I could rely on my memory without having a memory lapse.

The sheet music is really a safety net..


I'd encourage you to commit to one or the other. Either play completely from memory, or completely from the score (if allowed). Keeping a score on the music desk as a safety net means you are practically inviting a memory lapse, since you are planning so carefully for it. And, in the heat of the moment, should a memory lapse occur, finding your place in the score will take seconds and seconds of precious awkward obvious time, and what your were hoping to avoid in the first place becomes a mental (and most likely a musical) mess despite your "safety net."

Instead, plan the other way.

Either 1) have the piece memorized as air tight as possible, practice it in front of people to get through the nerves, and realize that mistakes are a part of the deal and that there is no such thing as a perfect performance (especially when you want perfection so badly, if that's what you want. (In that case, your attention is on the wrong thing--playing mistake free rather than playing excellently. Those two things are very, very different, and your mindset about them will result in very different performances).

Or 2) practice page turns. Intentionally. Start with a phrase before the turn, do the turn, and end a phrase after. Lather, rinse, repeat. Over and over. One PW member, jefferyjones, is an incredible page turn artist. As an accompanist, he has developed an astounding deft quickness. Boggles the mind, actually. Also with tricky page turns, you might adjust fingering to free up one or the other hand. Several times, when I've been called to play music that I was barely familiar with, I'd write in pencil in the lower corner "LH" or "RH" to remind me which hand to use to turn the page. And, many times, I've simple memorized only the measures that precede and follow the page turn--just enough to get the job done. Otherwise, I am fully engaged in reading the score as I play (I like to read the score more than I like playing from memory. I like seeing all of the squiggles and dots and letters and notes, and somehow, each time I play through the piece, it still seems new to me. crazy

If you *do* play from a string of taped together photocopies, then *practice* from the string of taped together photocopies. You might be unpleasantly surprised at how awkward it is to your posture to read from so far to the left to, eventually, so far to your right. It can really throw off your balance and other body mechanics, especially if, say, the thrust of the piece moves bass while the reading of the score moves right. frown

A caveat about page turns--different pianos are sized differently, with the music desk sitting higher above the keys and further away from your position on the bench, or lower and closer, or some other odd combination! If you practice page turns on one piano, the mechanics and timing are likely to be very different on the performance piano.

If I were you, and I had the piece memorized, and I was just afraid of having a memory lapse, I'd confront my fear. Dealing with the score in this case seems like it would present more distractions for you than anything else. Instead, concentrate on making the music you know how to make. Playing on a strange piano will be enough of a challenge to keep you occupied.

And what's the worst that could happen? I mean, nobody's ever died of embarrassment, have they? And you live to fight another day. Plan for a good day. wink

--Andy


Edited by Cinnamonbear (04/23/14 10:15 AM)
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#2265861 - 04/23/14 02:01 PM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Cinnamonbear, I think you misunderstood me. I meant have two purchased scores that you disassemble, one for the rectos and one for the versos. Then tape the pages together five-wide. If OP wants to keep the original score/book intact, this will require purchasing two extra copies of the score. When I said one extra copy, I was perhaps assuming more of a willingness to deconstruct one's music books than is perhaps there.

[ETA: I like everything else you said.]


Edited by PianoStudent88 (04/23/14 02:03 PM)
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#2265877 - 04/23/14 02:40 PM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18131
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: lacrymosa85
[...]Do you think I'll be able to photocopy the entire piece (up to 5 pages) to avoid page turning altogether, and bring in the original score?

Thanks


Do we think ...? I think that your safest bet is to ask the examination board what their specific requirements are in this area. You might get all sorts of suggestions from the Pianist Cornber, but how do you know - if you don't ask the right people - what will be accepted?

I know of one organisation that does not allow photo-copies of music at examinations. I don't think that your knowing of experiences in other countries is going to have any particular effect on the AMEB requirements.

One more personal opinion - since you asked : I (personally, just me) think nothing looks as un-professional as a string of photo-copied pages spread across the music stand, even when taped together somehow. Some music stands don't hold that fifth page upright, so you have to compromise and have both ends swaying in the breeze, as it were.

Professionals who use music learn to manage page turns.

Regards,
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#2265881 - 04/23/14 02:50 PM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1411
BruceD is right (i.e., about asking the source), but I say fight the power: you bought the original music--someone already got paid--read off of whatever you want!


Edited by A443 (04/23/14 02:52 PM)

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#2265987 - 04/23/14 06:23 PM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: A443]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: A443
BruceD is right (i.e., about asking the source), but I say fight the power: you bought the original music--someone already got paid--read off of whatever you want!
It's unwise to "fight the power" if the rules clearly state you cannot use photocopies. Not worth risking your time, effort and (considerable) entry fee, is it?
Check the rules with the AMEB. I could tell you what I think they are, but rules change from time to time and I'd always advise contacting them directly. Having said that, I don't think a string of photocopies is a good look. As Bruce said, if you're using the score, learn to turn the pages. You can memorise sections to tide you over to the next convenient turning place.
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#2266001 - 04/23/14 07:04 PM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1411
@currawong, perhaps my point was unclear: YES, it is absolutely worth risking MY time, effort, and entry fee if I am standing up for what I think is right. But, that is just me. Besides, apparently no one knows yet if that is the case or not.

Many organisations side with publishers for copyright reasons. However, if they have purchased music, then that point is moot. If the poster wants to visualise their music in a certain way, they should be allowed to do so; mandating how they see music is somehow anti-artistic. You want them to perhaps play/perform in a prescribed manner too?!?

With all that said: memorise your music! But, that is not the point of this topic...


Edited by A443 (04/23/14 07:05 PM)

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#2266025 - 04/23/14 07:48 PM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: A443]
lacrymosa85 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 81
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Thanks for your comments all. Very useful, as usual.

It sounds like the consensus is for me to commit to either memorising or page turning. I think I will do the latter and employ the tips discussed above :-)
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#2266049 - 04/23/14 08:26 PM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: A443]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5943
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: A443
@currawong...You want them to perhaps play/perform in a prescribed manner too?!?
Of course not. I was just pointing out that making a protest against exam rules at the point of doing the exam (rather than writing a letter perhaps, or putting forward your view in some other way) may have consequences which you should be aware of.
But you have to know what the rules actually are first.
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#2266232 - 04/24/14 02:28 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18131
Loc: Victoria, BC
Someone with access to the RCM (Toronto) piano syllabus may correct me on this; I don't have mine with me, as I am writing from Paris (alas! smile )

It used to be that at the most advanced level examination (ARCT performance diploma) the RCM (Toronto) requires performing from memory. If one uses the score, one will get adjudicated and will receive written comments on the performance, but no mark will be given and no formal credit nor any diploma will be given for the examination.

If this "Certificate of Performance" examination is an advanced one, one should be sure of the rules.

Regards,
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#2266235 - 04/24/14 02:42 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
Hmm..

A semi-related question popped in mind: I'm a composer and a publisher. If someone acquired a written permission from me to photocopy a work that I've composed (and/or just published), would the examination board have an issue at that?

I'm asking this, since I think that all of this issues about photocopying have to do with copyright issues, rather than anything practical really.

And, btw, in advance level piano exams, it's also my experience that the examination board requires performing from memory!
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#2266251 - 04/24/14 03:27 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4823
Loc: USA
I apologize for how OT this is, but I have a couple questions regarding publishing.

Nikolas,

1) Does your company produce physical copies? (always been curious)

2) How do modern composers get their music published by quality publishers? Are there any publishers producing high quality scores like those of urtext editions? How does a guy like, say, Kapustin get his music published?

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#2266254 - 04/24/14 03:30 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
huh??!?!

1. OBVIOUSLY! And we actually ONLY do physical copies at the moment (bound to change in the next few months, but that's another issue).

2. What do you mean "quality publishers"? There's huge publishers, there's small publishers. There's huge publishers that have so many names and thus don't have the time to deal individually with each composer, and there's tiny publishers that don't have the means to main stream distribution...

BTW, I consider the scores of our company to be of high quality (like "urtext editions"). Check our catalog out wink

http://www.musica-ferrum.com/catalog.php

Or check amazon.com (and very soon in JWPeppers (YAY))
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#2266257 - 04/24/14 03:35 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4823
Loc: USA
Cool! Don't ever stop producing physical scores. (as if what I say makes a lick of a difference grin)

Your editions look great by the way.

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#2266261 - 04/24/14 03:40 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5300
Loc: Europe
First of all a pic:



This is a small sample from our scores.

Also, A LOT of our scores have audio, or youtube videos (most have youtube videos actually), so I'd guess that you didn't search too hard! grin

EDIT: You keep editing your posts, before I have the time to notice! :Grin:


Edited by Nikolas (04/24/14 03:42 AM)
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#2266265 - 04/24/14 03:44 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: Nikolas]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4823
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Also, A LOT of our scores have audio, or youtube videos (most have youtube videos actually), so I'd guess that you didn't search too hard! grin

I noticed this pretty soon after I posted, so I edited that part out. ha

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#2266315 - 04/24/14 07:54 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: Nikolas]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18131
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Hmm..

A semi-related question popped in mind: I'm a composer and a publisher. If someone acquired a written permission from me to photocopy a work that I've composed (and/or just published), would the examination board have an issue at that?
[...]


My first response - although not necessarily a well-informed one - is to consider whether or not the examination board has chosen your work as one of the accepted examination pieces.

Second : In an examination repertoire list, where candidates are sometimes allowed to substitute one of the exam pieces for a piece of their choice, the piece (sometimes) has to be submitted to the examination board for acceptance before the piece is allowed. In other cases of an "own choice" selection which has not had to be pre-approved, the candidate is advised that if the piece does not conform to "grade level" standards, the candidate risks losing marks for the imappropriate choice of repertoire material.

Finally, if the above criteria are met and the only copy available is a photocopy, then that would surely be accepted. If there is also a print copy, the law of the examining board would prevail.

I think!

Regards,
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BruceD
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Estonia 190

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#2266354 - 04/24/14 10:22 AM Re: Playing from photocopies [Re: lacrymosa85]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13796
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I think you'll have to comply with whatever regulations are set by the AMEB. Either that, or risk being disqualified or receiving a low score.

Regardless, the question is probably best addressed by consulting the syllabus or contacting the AMEB officials.

Originally Posted By: lacrymosa85
This query will vary depending on country, but I'm interested in everyone's thoughts or experiences.

I have an AMEB Certificate of Performance exam in June and the editions of sheet music I have are very awkward for page turning.

Do you think I'll be able to photocopy the entire piece (up to 5 pages) to avoid page turning altogether, and bring in the original score?

Thanks
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