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Well the OP stated he heard chinese pianos were "trouble" and wanted to know all thoughts concerning this. Go back and read his last paragraph instead of just the caption of this thread.

Chinese pianos are not trouble, but they're not the very best.

Wimpiano, the Bluthner model S is the largest of their range but it's not a great piano to be honest. It has good tone but the action lets it down. The model B is a far superior instrument.

I would say the very best pianos are:

Bechstein 8, Bluthner B, Bosendorfer 130, Steinway K, Yamaha SU7, Steingraeber 138 and 130, Grotrian Steinweg (can't remember the model but it's nice). These are the premium uprights I can remember playing and there's pretty much something for everyone there. There's not one better than the other, but my preference out of that lot are the Yamaha, Bechstein and Steinway.

I don't know much about the Sauter, Seiler, Petrof, Schimmel etc.

I know that the Kawai K8 and Yamaha U5 are beautiful pianos and in a more accessible price bracket.

I don't know much about the current chinese pianos - the Brodmanns and such like, but I haven't liked any of the previous Chinese uprights I've played. I last played a Brodmann upright in 2007 though so that's a long time ago.

When going for an upright, I would (personally)steer clear of pianos that need to be rebuilt. The costs involved in rebuilding pianos are the same whether its a grand or an upright, and some uprights don't take well to having soundboards replaced due to the effort it takes to get the old parts out and the new parts in. It's not that you can't find good rebuilt uprights, and sometimes you can find 100 year old uprights with perfect soundboards etc. If I'm being perfectly honest with you though, I've played a rebuilt Bechstein model 8 (original board which was in excellent condition) and while it was a good piano, and it looked beautiful with its rosewood cabinet, it wasn't a patch on a Kawai K8, and certainly not a patch on the new Bechstein 8. It's price was about £10,000 which put it at the same range as the Kawai. That's only my opinion.

Bluthner made some wonderful overstrung uprights in the early 20th Century, but even the over damper models are very difficult to get parts for, and I was advised that they would need to install an entirely new upright action, which would involve making a new action frame, because of the way certain parts were made and installed to start with, that are now no longer made, and the cost of doing this would end up almost matching the cost of a new piano because it would be a one-off job. So it's not that I'm saying DON'T go for a reconditioned or rebuilt project piano, but in my experience you have to prepare yourself for very high costs which won't necessarily match the quality you get at the end of the day.

@Grandman The chinese piano's was merely a sidenote and has been adressed. Anyway, no pun intended but it was because this thread reminds me of fightclub: "Everything is a copy of a copy of a copy"..

Hi WG40,

My vote would be the Sauter Masterclass 130. I purchased one of these last January and have been absolutely in love with it ever since. My teacher and two piano technicians have all commented on how wonderful it sounds as well as the quality of the action, build and design.

I'm sure you would also be happy with many of the pianos already mentioned. I hope you enjoy your piano shopping!

I believe your experience to be a rare one. Most dealers asking 15K for an upright will certainly spend a few hours if need be getting a piano show ready, as this only cost us about $100. The ROI just makes sense.

Furthermore, we know that the piano has to be in top form because it not only directly competes against the standard brands of Yamaha, Kawai and Steinway; but also the high end European pianos. I will say that Perzina pianos are so good out of the box that they do not generally require more than a tuning.

This is because each Perzina is unboxed in California tuned, regulated and voiced. Then the head distributors for U.S. sales Chris Vance personally inspects and plays each piano before it is approved to leave the warehouse and travel to its final destination.

In addition, Perzina USA has a full time concert piano technician, independent of the Perzina factory that meticulously goes through each and every piano bound for the United States.

I find the Perzina's quality control to be among the industry's best and am confident to compare their product to pianos costing 3 times as much.

Come on guys give me a break..

Yes wimpiano. They are that good. Detach yourself from conventional wisdom because Perzina is a very unconventional piano maker. As Grandman has pointed out in other threads. Perzina pianos are original German designs, using mainly European components, just made in China.

We're back to Ye Oldde Sales Pittche

My general impression is not that Chinese piano's are trouble, they're quite good. But stay the heck away from some people who sell 'm.. what a mess..
If Elvis would've lived today he would've sung: If your looking for trouble, go to a "Chinese Piano" salesman.

Perhaps a question is in order that should have been asked early on to help clarify:

Are you prepared to spend $30-40k on a new vertical?

Then we'd have to stay away from virtually every piano dealer because everyone from Steinway down sells Chinese pianos these days. Fazioli don't, not in their own showrooms in Italy, but many of their agents do :-)

Most Chinese pianos these days are quite well built, and do use good quality parts. Some Chinese pianos suffer from some shoddy workmanship and shoddy assembly of those quality parts. But it's improving all the time.

You know what, if you buy a Chinese piano and find after five years that you're not all that impressed with it or want an upgrade, it's really not the end of the world if you've had five good years from it. You might even get 10, or 20!

I think one of the main problems with Chinese pianos is that sometimes (*sometimes*) the regulation isn't right when they leave the factory, and some (*some*) dealers don't have the time, or don't spend the time, doing a full regulation on them. They'll tidy some things up, but they won't want to do a full strip down and re-setting. Often, these pianos used to suffer from bad action centres and low quality action felts making regulation a pain in the arse, but I think a lot of these problems aren't an issue now.

I've seen several Bluthners and Bosendorfers that were coming out of the factory with bad regulation - or were neglected at some point between leaving the factory and being sold. I've played concerts on virtually brand new Bosendorfers that have had sluggish, heavy actions, and Bluthners that have no repetition simply because the jack was set incorrectly. That doesn't mean the piano is bad, it means the preparation on the piano is bad. Once these issues were fixed the pianos played like a dream. It's the same with Chinese pianos.

The only thing I will say about Chinese pianos is that they don't have the full spectrum that tier one pianos have - you don't get quite the full picture. My Brodmann also had some poor glue on it but it was a first generation model (grand, 187). I hear that the latest models don't suffer from these things.

A lot of Chinese pianos are voiced too bright and that can be difficult to correct - they sound good when they're first delivered but after a few years of playing the hammers can be like rocks hitting the strings, but perhaps a good technician would be able to break down and deep tone the hammers. Again, I've seen that on tier one pianos too.

The fact is that over the years the quality gap between low and high priced pianos is changing. There are some tier one pianos that I wouldn't buy, because I couldn't justify the quality-price ratio. If you put a Steinway K next to a YUS5 Yamaha and prepared them both to the absolute max, and if I had that amount of money to spend on a piano, then I would have to think really carefully before buying the Steinway (or Bluthner, or Bechstein, or Bosendorfer). Perhaps you could even do the same with a Ritmuller 132 and a YUS5 and I would choose the Ritmuller based only on touch and tone, which means I would effectively be choosing the Ritmuller over the Steinway and saving a small mortgage in the process. Perhaps not?

The man who rebuilt my piano for me said that he spend some time looking at some Pearl River uprights, and that he was astounded at the quality when he considered the price. He said they were really very good pianos and when you consider they were selling for under £5000, it really was a sign of the times. He doesn't sell them.

Dear Friends:

For as long as I can remember, the finest upright piano has been the C. Bechstein. However, I believe that the scene has changed in the last ten years or so, and certainly quite recently with the introduction of the Kayserburg artist series. I'm reliably informed that the top Sauter uprights are superb. The largest August Forster and Steingraeber uprights are truly beautiful pianos. As an American, it pains me to say that no American upright can compare to the above. The Hamburg Steinway K, however, is a beaut.

Some remarkable results have accrued when artist re-builders have been given a blank cheque to rebuild old American uprights that have been in families for many years. One immediately thinks of the Bush & Lane pianos, but there are several others.

Personally, after selling our grand, we recently purchased a 52" Cunningham that will more than suffice until we're re-located in our retirement digs. My famous technician has nothing but praise for it, esp. as it's very modestly priced.

Just my opinion and not intended to offend or annoy ANYONE for ANY reason.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

@joe80 sorry I was just trying to write off the frustrations about the ongoing sales pitch of the Germ.. Anyway I agree with you.

Yes, I do prefer Kawai's over Yamaha's in most situations and for my price-range, but I still do like Yamaha's, especially their bigger grands. I'll take a CFX if anyone's offering.

I agree with Joe on (paraphrasing) the manufacturing sloppiness of some Chinese pianos. Perzina less so. Hailun & Ritmuller more so, but I still think Yamaha and Kawai's come out way more refined still. Yamaha and Kawai get's bunched in with "Asian pianos' but I think that's unfair. Japan is more like Germany and the US in almost every way than it is to Korea, China or Indonesia. The people may be physically similar, but not product wise.

Yes, but i didn't think you were referring to a cfx when you mentioned the yamahas you were looking at in the store. Otherwise, yamis generally have a more percussive sound that's quite different than kawai. I also agree with you that in general, japanese workmanship is better than china, at this time. But, the gap is narrowing and general statements can't necessarily be applied to specific piano making companies. For example, Samsung makes a pretty darn nice phone with the galaxy and i believe their lcd flatscreen televisions have surpassed sony in quality some time ago. The japanese built their reputation in the 80s with their automobiles, not their pianos. That reputation still lingers in the minds of many in thinking japan alway equated with quality. The thing is, in the early 70s, made in japan was a sign of junk. It wasn't always perceived as it is today. The japanese had to learn how to make things better and they did. The koreans and chinese are now learning this. Nothing inherently superior about the japanese way of doing things that can't be learned.

Not all chinese piano manufacturers make great pianos. Some make very poor pianos. I get that and i agree. But, even the piano buyer's guide, in referencing pianos made in china today, notes, "Over the years, however, both the technical and musical qualities have taken big leaps forward. While some remain at the entry level, others rival the performance of more expensive pianos from other parts of the world. Just as you think it is unfair to lump japanese pianos with other asian piano manufacturers, it is just as unfair to lump all chinese manufacturers together. Some chinese companies are government owned. Others are privately owned by foreigners. Each has differing standards of quality control. To the extent the japanese hold any edge in quality control, many chinese made pianos now use better parts. This is also noted in the piano buyers guide, wherein it states,"A growing trend now is to manufacture and sell somewhat higher-priced pianos that have added value in the form of better components, often imported to China from Europe and the U.S., but still taking advantage of the low cost of Chinese labor. The best ones are not just a collection of parts, however, but also have improved designs developed with foreign technical assistance, and sufficient oversight to make sure the designs are properly executed....Some Korean and Chinese makers are importing parts and technology from Germany, Japan, and the U.S., producing pianos that sometimes rival the performance of more expensive pianos from the West. Global alliances are bringing new products to market that are more hybridized than anything we’ve seen before. Although the old pecking order still has some validity, the number of exceptions is increasing, causing temporary confusion in the marketplace until a new order emerges."

I'm sorry to have digressed so far from the OP's question, but things are changing and there are some damn good pianos being made in china today. Maybe not the best (as others have been so eager to hammer home to me) but damn good. You just have to find them while maintaining an open mind. Oh, and all this talk about resale value means squat when you're already paying twice as much today just to get that resale value you hope to recoup later on. I've found the market is flooded with so many old yamahas and kawais, they're practically a dime a dozen,in the used marketplace, at least here in southern California. i haven't seen it being easy to move any old, used piano in today's marketplace.

Although I understand the arguments of Grandman, we are talking about performance grade instruments. In my opinion the Chinese brands try to be successful by their price tag - which is fine, but not compatible with performance grade. If you try to build the best of the best, it will be expensive. It's just not the focus of their lines.
Then again, if you look at the Japanese brands Yamaha and Kawai, how efficiently they are run and can produce, I find it hard to believe that the same quality can come from a much lower price. Unless you want to rob your employees.
As I've even mentioned in my list before, I have played very good instruments that were China-made, but I have a hard time putting them with the best of the best.
You usually get what you pay for in new instruments.

Not if you understand the difference in labor and exchange rates. If you wanted to build two pianos exactly the same, same parts, design, labor, etc., and built one in china and one in japan, taking into consideration the exchange rate and labor costs, it'll cost twice as much to build it in japan. Why do you think i phones are made in china? What chinese pianos lack is a history and brand recognition. Like i said, maybe not the best yet, but some are pretty darn good. If you're aiming for the absolute best, forget japanese pianos and focus on european makes like steingraeber, fazioli, bosendorfer, bechstein and bluthner, to name a few.

Labor and exchange rates have nothing to do with "the best of the best." I agree with Woodfrog, those pianos are not coming from Asia, and certainly not from China. The truly special verticals come from the highest level of the European builders.

An emerging builder is very different than a master builder.

Very well said Marty.

Thanks Wim.