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#2266730 - 04/25/14 04:41 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: TimR]
Gary D. Online   content
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Originally Posted By: TimR

What I would argue instead is that either answer should be accepted.

That's probably not going to work, because it is (apparently) a multiple guess format, and considering two possible answers does not work well in that format.
Quote:

I would also suggest that they revise the test with a an example of an appoggiatura that can't be mistaken for something else, since obviously they think it is important that the student be able to identify one. I would include a proposed example with my request for adjustment of the test score.

That is probably a much better idea. Remove that question from the McDowell altogether.

This whole question becomes REALLY sticky if you consider notation such as Mozart's for his sonatas, where he does not even differentiate between two different realizations of the same writing. There you have a little note followed by a big note (principle note), and only knowledge will allow the performer to know when the little note is quickyl, or when it gets half the value of the note following.

I'll follow with a link that will illustrate how murky this all becomes.
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#2266732 - 04/25/14 04:45 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Online   content
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http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/a/ab/IMSLP00212-Mozart_-_Piano_Sonata__K_281.pdf

You will have to scroll down to the Rondo, movement 3. Here you will see straight 8th notes in the first full bar.

F Eb D C. This would seem to be an example of our "accented passing tone".

But it is rewritten. In Mozarts autograph, and also in my edition, which STICKS to this, the F is written as a little note, then the following Eb is a quarter.

And in the edition I have the little note is referred to, clearly as a "long appoggiatura".

Then there is a long intro discussing how to tell which of these little notes is a "long appoggiatura" and which one is a "short appoggiatura.

I could then call this editor, Nathan Brody, an idiot or at least an ignorant man because he does not refer to the note in question as a "accented passing tone".

Do you see how anal this gets? And how the terminology completely defeats our analysis of what is actually happening, or how to play?

Simple answers for simple (stupid and ignorant) people...
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#2266772 - 04/25/14 07:56 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Offline
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I found it interesting in your link, that the German calls it "Vorschlag", and almost humorous to state that the "Vorschlag" (pre-play) is to be played "auf dem Schlag" (on the beat). My multilingual dictionary then has these kinds of definitions for Vorschlag:
"cap" which is "frein" in French (the idea of braking a note - which is another feel for leaning). Then there is "orn. (ornament) - appoggiatura). This "ornament" sticks out.

My old theory book says

"
Originally Posted By: book

Melodic Decoration

The appogiatura is one of the ornaments (or graces) that were common in the 17th and 18th centuries. It is an accented dissonance that leans on the following chord note, thus displacing the consonant chord note."


This goes in the direction of what A443 said but perhaps in simpler word. The main point being that it is a device of the 17th and 18th century and that there is the sense of it being an ornament - a kind of grace note decorating a main chord-note that pushes the chord note off to the side, delaying its entrance. That also goes nicely with the French word "frein" - that you are putting on the brakes and then releasing, to slide into that note.

This is an exercise in the book where we were to turn the grace-note appearance into notation:


So far, so good. But then we got to short excerpts from existing music and I have a scribbled note from an observation from my teacher, "Many are not true appogiaturas". So as soon as we try to get to actual music, the neat definitions fall apart. Or - as soon as you try to move forward in history or composers who are more adventurous, it gets murky.

The other theory book which tried to follow the same RCM syllabus, but without examples from music (which is why I added the above book, for the musical examples) says this:
Originally Posted By: other book

Appogiatura
The appogiatura is a non-chord tone that occurs on the strong beat, or a stronger part of the beat than the note of resolution. Appogiaturas are approached by leap, and left by step. They resolve to the chord tone that they replace.

In the 17th and 18th centuries, the appogiatura was often written like a grace note, but unlike a grace note, the appogiatura is played on the beat. Thus it is an accented non-chord tone.

This is followed by frantic scribbles about "accented neighbour tone" which "moves step-wise from and to a chord note: appogiatura approached by leap, left by step; "echappe" = incomplete neighbour tone arrives by step, leaves by leap in opposite direction

This material is probably parallel to that of the CM in many ways. The student is left to memorize a tone of definitions, head spinning with notes that fly in from above or below, probably memorized long enough for an exam, and then?

This second book manages to use appropriate material for analysis, but then we're stuck in a narrow period of time. As a student, one might be left thinking that this is how all music works, because the theory books stay within this time frame, so they see nothing else. The other book tried to push the envelope, but then ran into other problems.

As per:

Originally Posted By: Gary
Do you see how anal this gets? And how the terminology completely defeats our analysis of what is actually happening, or how to play?

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#2266793 - 04/25/14 09:08 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: A454.7]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: A443
@keystring, my response to your question about generalised vs. specific learning examples is VERY LONG.

Basically, I think definitions are useless; you need experiences in order to apply learned knowledge. So, I think if you want a student to understand what an appoggiatura is, you need to give them examples of 200 different instances. It is a random number, but they need to have experiences and make their own connections first...in my opinion.

The bigger problematic is the whole big picture. You have the entire world of musicianship put into the hands of a single teacher, given that next to nothing is taught in school. An experienced and dedicated teacher might have managed to organize "all that needs to be learned" for musicianship into some kind of order, assembling all the materials he needs in his own fluid package. But most people rely at least to some degree on method books, systems like the RCM, CM etc., or something. It's not a question of appogiatura - but of everything that needs to be learned.

Here we're in the context of CM. Since I'm not familiar with it I'm sticking with what I know, the RCM. The timing for this kind of exam is when the student is at some grade - maybe gr. 5, 6 or 7 for the practical portion. Why would they do it that way? Well, probably because the student will have played a lot of material by then, and so will have encountered all of these things in music first (which goes with your idea). But it doesn't happen by osmosis. If a teacher is planning for students to do the theory exams and/or wants those things to be learned, then for the 5 years that the student is working with music, he can be pointing out these things as they come up. IF getting these names seems important, which it may not be.

If the main goal is to get high grades in exams, then the number of pieces played by the student may be limited - the classical picture of few pieces drilled to perfection we hear about - then this will happen even less.

We also have the fact that this theory is rooted in the 17th and 18th century. One of my theory books actually warns about it in a small print preface "to the teacher". So the student is playing music from all periods (but maybe Baroque is more heavily done "traditionally) but learning theory geared to one period of time. There is an additional side effect -- Namely, the theory won't be seen as belonging to a restricted period of time. There will be the impression that this theory reflects music as a whole, since that is all that is learned.

But at least, when examples are given, and exams are created, if the theory is 17th & 18th century, then the music should be as well. IF one wants to go the exam route.

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#2266808 - 04/25/14 09:57 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: Gary D.]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
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Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: TimR

What I would argue instead is that either answer should be accepted.

That's probably not going to work, because it is (apparently) a multiple guess format, and considering two possible answers does not work well in that format.


You would know the personality of the system better than I.

I am sometimes surprised by the unwritten structures.

I went back and got an engineering degree later in life, and some of the administrative regulations that made sense to a student were a hardship for me, working nights full time in a hospital.

So I decided to appeal one of them, and went to see the Dean. I asked for the appeal process, and the group of them looked at each other in horror, and told me "you don't want to do that." ..."We'll just make an exception for you, no problem." I got the feeling they wanted to avoid setting a precedent that might constrain them later, but were perfectly willing to accomodate a reasonable request.

Maybe they would re-score the test for one student, without admitting error or fault or changing anything.
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#2266852 - 04/25/14 11:38 AM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1027
Loc: Irvine, CA
I think appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic-tone is not exactly the same as in the ornament context?

Are they the same or not the same?


Edited by ezpiano.org (04/25/14 12:47 PM)
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#2266950 - 04/25/14 02:08 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I think appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic-tone is not exactly the same as in the ornament context?

Can you explain what you mean (expand on it)?

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#2266974 - 04/25/14 02:30 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: keystring]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I think appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic-tone is not exactly the same as in the ornament context?

Can you explain what you mean (expand on it)?


My understanding is close to what ez asked, but of course I could be completely wrong.

From the wiki:
Quote:
In music, ornaments or embellishments are musical flourishes that are not necessary to carry the overall line of the melody (or harmony), but serve instead to decorate or "ornament" that line. Many ornaments are performed as "fast notes" around a central note
.

To me, an acciacatura is an example of that kind of decoration, but an appoggiatura has a definite purpose, to add emphasis to that particular note or point in the line. There could be other ways to do the same thing - a sforzando, a subito dynamic change, etc. But at any rate, the appoggiatura IS necessary to carry the line, not just an embellishment.

If I'm wrong let me know, I'll change my answer.
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#2266985 - 04/25/14 03:09 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1027
Loc: Irvine, CA
Appoggiatura in the context of ornaments are the one that tiny little notes that has a line connect to the bigger notes. Mostly mistaken as "grace note" that has a line crossing it.

How can I insert picture correctly?
[img:left]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxdJp3V5iKZqOURxU3RVQnhnaEE/edit?usp=sharing[/img]



Appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic tone are the one that perfectly looks normal and blend into the music itself. The circled note in MacDowell would be the example of it. This Appoggiatura are as big as other normal notes and there are no tiny lines to connect to the bigger notes.
[img:left]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxdJp3V5iKZqRGtUekNrMTVOUTg/edit?usp=sharing[/img]
This is very bad...

Let me know if this make sense.

I know they looks differently, and also played differently, am I right or wrong?






Edited by ezpiano.org (04/25/14 03:11 PM)
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#2266992 - 04/25/14 03:16 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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Registered: 06/16/11
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Loc: Maine
You can't really judge by how the notes are written, because the edition of the music you're using might write the tiny ones out as big notes.

Also my own impression is that even though they may have been written tiny originally by the composer, that the composer means them as an essential part of the musical effect of what is played.

At least this is true for the historical examples: for example, Mozart. More recent conventions about how dissonances are written may operate differently.
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#2267001 - 04/25/14 04:01 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: TimR]
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: TimR

You would know the personality of the system better than I.

Probably not, because I am a rebel who has refused to join organizations. Mostly for this kind of thing I just give moral support to other people who have to face bureaucracies. smile
Quote:

So I decided to appeal one of them, and went to see the Dean. I asked for the appeal process, and the group of them looked at each other in horror, and told me "you don't want to do that." ..."We'll just make an exception for you, no problem." I got the feeling they wanted to avoid setting a precedent that might constrain them later, but were perfectly willing to accomodate a reasonable request.

Doesn't this remind you a bit of the military? "Don't make waves!"
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#2267003 - 04/25/14 04:02 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
You can't really judge by how the notes are written, because the edition of the music you're using might write the tiny ones out as big notes.

Yes, as I understand it, conventions fluctuated and the same music might be written differently in different editions at different times. The chapter I referred to began with Clementi, which they showed two different ways. My own version of the same Clementi piece has what looks like a series of eighth notes - no grade notes.

I`m inserting the exercise that I posted before. This represents two ways of writing the same thing. It is played as indicated in the second version (no red grace notes), but we still have this feeling of moving into the `main note` which is off beat.

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#2267006 - 04/25/14 04:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I think appoggiatura in the context of non-harmonic-tone is not exactly the same as in the ornament context?

Are they the same or not the same?

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usim...-autograph-.pdf

Compare this to whatever Mozart sonata edition you use. It should answer a lot of questions.

It should also make you ASK a lot of questions.

And no one has all the answers.

To this moment people still argue about how to perform this music, so when you pick edition A or B, you are buying someone's idea of what Mozart meant, or would have done himself.

The people who are wrestling with the hows and whys of the composition and performing of music are too busy listening and creating to worry about exact names that describe EVERYTHING that happens in music.

So you can spend the rest of your life trying to define exactly what an "appoggiatura" is, but you will still run into disagreements.

Which is exactly what is happening in this thread.
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#2267011 - 04/25/14 04:17 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1027
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: Gary
So you can spend the rest of your life trying to define exactly what an "appoggiatura" is, but you will still run into disagreements.

Which is exactly what is happening in this thread.


I agree with you Gary.

So, let's close this case and agree to disagree and practice more piano!!

Thanks!!
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#2267043 - 04/25/14 05:12 PM Re: Non Harmonic Tone [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Originally Posted By: Gary
So you can spend the rest of your life trying to define exactly what an "appoggiatura" is, but you will still run into disagreements.

Which is exactly what is happening in this thread.


I agree with you Gary.

So, let's close this case and agree to disagree and practice more piano!!

Thanks!!

I'm not disagreeing with anyone! I'm simply saying that "simple problems" become more complex with more knowledge.

My objection to "tests" is that scoring well has more to do with figuring out what those who MAKE the tests are looking for than it has to do with what has been learned.
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