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I always go back to the analogy to language. If we want to speak a language, we have to understand it. We can't just learn words from the language and put them together any way we want to.
I agree to a point, but music doesn't have the same shared meaning that words have. A word has a (more or less) specific meaning to everybody (who understands the language) but chords or musical phrases do not. The rules of syntax are fairly strict whereas no such rules exist for musical phrases or pieces.
I agree, it's not a perfect analogy by any stretch. Just meant to point out that it's hard to speak or write in a language that's not understood through a certain amount of absorbtion.
Originally Posted by beeboss
Originally Posted by Scott Coletta
I guess this is pretty vague and could be over-analytical, but I think there has to be some kind of function at work, otherwise we could just noodle around on the blues scale and it would sound good. We all know that doesn't work.
I tend to think that is just what I do, just play around with the notes, putting them in places that appeal to me. I have long since given up trying to work out why some combinations appeal and others don't, as probably somebody else just has a different idea about what sounds good. If I go further I could probably say that any combination of notes would sound good in the appropriate place - hard to prove though as note choice is virtually unlimited.
Yeah, but you speak the language. You've spent enough time absorbing and practicing it that it comes automatically... which it should. Some of us are not to that point yet. If we don't absorb enough, we think alot about how to "say" things and it comes out weird... even if it is understood what is meant. "I no speak a English. You tell me where is bathroom?". We need more time absorbing things so we don't sound like "foreigners".
Yeah, but you speak the language. You've spent enough time absorbing and practicing it that it comes automatically... which it should.
Of course I understand the value of vocabulary, which is why I'm refocusing my attention a little.
However, please refer back to the Pilc video I posted. The intervallic playing he demonstrates there over F Blues doesn't really exist in 'standard' vocabulary.
This why I'm noting that expected analogies don't really define anything so well in jazz. If you stick to idiomatic styles then of course I can understand the strictness of this approach.
But someone like me was influenced by a style that I could not describe as following the idiom. Here's a repost of my teacher's playing.
We went through every device he used here and so that's an example of my vocabulary. I still don't have the guts to play this way BTW so I end up playing snippets and then it sounds out of place because my intent is not so strong.
Now understand that whatever he plays here follows harmony very very strictly (we did work it out in detail like I said). However, it should be obvious then that it's a reharm.
Man oh man, Weather Report. One of my absolute favourite bands, the stuff they came up with together . . . and Zawinul, Master of The Keys! Thanks for reminding me, got to have a WR marathon soon. Zawinul was a great blues player too (this tune was the first time I ever heard the Rhodes, it was love at first hearing:
The Blues. It has nothing to do with harmony, its not about the chords, but melodic phrases - and a solid rhythm beneath. Not forgetting a 12-bar form that keeps it together. Blues is story-telling.
I think you should stick to what you believe. Especially if you have a mentor who is already enjoying success doing it, and can show you the road. You'll never be able to convince anyone that the blues scale is "limiting". The only limits are your ear and your technique. What you can accomplish while staying within the "blues idiom" is amazing. But you don't have to stick to the blues idiom. Really, as long as it sounds good, I don't think anyone here will give you trouble. People might say "it's not the blues", or like my old teacher used to say "you're playing like white boy", but who cares. It's your music.
You should post some of this stuff you are talking about. Here is really the place to do it. I think with the band might be difficult. Depends how good everyone's ear is, I guess. As always, solo piano is the best option here. No bass to "limit" you.
Of course I understand the value of vocabulary, which is why I'm refocusing my attention a little.
However, please refer back to the Pilc video I posted. The intervallic playing he demonstrates there over F Blues doesn't really exist in 'standard' vocabulary.
This why I'm noting that expected analogies don't really define anything so well in jazz. If you stick to idiomatic styles then of course I can understand the strictness of this approach.
But someone like me was influenced by a style that I could not describe as following the idiom. Here's a repost of my teacher's playing.
I think your teacher knows the language. His playing is evolved beyond standard approaches, but the language and tradition is still there. Have you asked him if he feels that he's absorbed the tradition?
Take poetry for example... it's not "standard vocabulary". The phrasing and timing are unusual, not to mention the hidden meanings. But try to write poetry in a language in which you can't correctly ask where the bathroom is. You might think it's poetic, but for those who are familiar with the language and poetry in that language, it's probably not.
Language is more than just understanding what words mean and the grammatically correct way of arranging things. There's all kinds of hidden meanings, slang, non-verbal cues etc. This can only be absorbed through being immersed in it. You can't study this on paper or in discussion.
>>However, please refer back to the Pilc video I posted. The intervallic playing he demonstrates there over F Blues doesn't really exist in 'standard' vocabulary.
But isn't Pilc there basically bashing playing intervallically ? He's calling it "intellectual construction", "like so many people play these days", "looking at your feet". Instead, he is telling us to play melodies.
Scott, like I said, we worked on that tune in detail. So basically we worked out "a vocabulary". Of course, it doesn't sound like bebop. But I learned it.
In your definition, I didn't learn a vocabulary. In my mind, I did. It's just his. Now whether it's steeped in tradition or not, I learned it so whatever history it has or doesn't have, I got it too.
But like I said, I'm hesitant to try that style out here because it sounds 'out' and I don't have enough 'hearing' to do it like he does. I can only copy the actual notes he used. That I know.
I can tell you, since I know him well, that although he studied under the same masters steeped in deep tradition (like one his teachers is a well-known stride master), he clearly created his own sound.
Whether you or others like it or not, it's a sound that drew me to the jazz style originally. I didn't learn of jazz by listening to swing. I actually came in at the latter end mostly with an introduction to Herbie (Maiden Voyage was one of my early draw to jazz).
So I admit I'm different in what I like and do. Some have actually said that my likes have skipped the "black history" part of jazz. But I can't help it. It's what drew me in to the genre.
I think you should stick to what you believe. Especially if you have a mentor who is already enjoying success doing it, and can show you the road. You'll never be able to convince anyone that the blues scale is "limiting". The only limits are your ear and your technique. What you can accomplish while staying within the "blues idiom" is amazing. But you don't have to stick to the blues idiom. Really, as long as it sounds good, I don't think anyone here will give you trouble. People might say "it's not the blues", or like my old teacher used to say "you're playing like white boy", but who cares. It's your music.
You should post some of this stuff you are talking about. Here is really the place to do it. I think with the band might be difficult. Depends how good everyone's ear is, I guess. As always, solo piano is the best option here. No bass to "limit" you.
Give me time to get the confidence to do it. I really am too anxious to post it. I used the Pilc example only because it's the rare example of intervallic playing that I can remember easily. My teacher's version of intervallic was very melodic though so I can see what Pilc is talking about.
This stuff is so advanced though because as you know it's so hard to "hear" it. I think one has to learn to hear it. I hear portions. The story isn't complete.
I think the effect is to confuse my "message". I think part of this is confidence and intent. Not there yet.
In the meantime, I always post more traditional playing (straight harmony with a few variations).
BTW - when my teacher (the prior one, not Bill) criticizes my playing, he's saying that I can play to the changes but he wants to see me extend the idea beyond just the current chord (horizontal playing -- common tones -- ala Miles Davis). That's what led me to go beyond just the 1-3-5-7 chord tones.
But like I said, I'm hesitant to try that style out here because it sounds 'out' and I don't have enough 'hearing' to do it like he does. I can only copy the actual notes he used. That I know.
I'm guessing you can't hear it yet because you still don't have the basics down. I've been through the same thing.
Originally Posted by jazzwee
I can tell you, since I know him well, that although he studied under the same masters steeped in deep tradition (like one his teachers is a well-known stride master), he clearly created his own sound.
Whether you or others like it or not, it's a sound that drew me to the jazz style originally. I didn't learn of jazz by listening to swing. I actually came in at the latter end mostly with an introduction to Herbie (Maiden Voyage was one of my early draw to jazz).
So I admit I'm different in what I like and do. Some have actually said that my likes have skipped the "black history" part of jazz. But I can't help it. It's what drew me in to the genre.
Both of my teachers in school were steeped in tradition as well, but also had their own sound. Especially Willie Pickens. Check him out if you haven't.
Also, I wasn't drawn to jazz by swing either. I came to it by way of Medeski Martin & Wood. And my favorite stuff is definitely not straight swing and traditional. I prefer Mehldau, Herbie, KJ, and stuff that's even more modern than that. And initially, I denounced the need to play anything that wasn't modern, with the belief that I could bypass it and get to the "good stuff". But I've since realized that the control needed to play the advanced stuff comes from getting the basics first. That's why I play the way I do right now. I'm absorbing the basics. If I try to play "out", it sounds bad. I understand intervalic playing, "advanced" reharms and all that ... at least on paper. But I haven't absorbed enough of the basics yet to be able to really pull that off in improvisation. And I now know that I was never going to get it by going directly to the advanced stuff, as much as I wanted to. You just can't run before you can walk.
I'm guessing you can't hear it yet because you still don't have the basics down. I've been through the same thing.
Scott, of course that's true. However, how I'm trying to sound has a little different path and has different issues.
What I've been saying is that some of the criticism about my harmony choices is not part of the 'basics' issue. I've clearly made some choices though you and others may not like it. I've already stated some of the reasons for my choices earlier.
The basics I'm missing, IMHO, relate to hearing what I want to play and then that translates into some other melodic construct.
And I have tons of other developmental issues that come with time on the instrument (like groove, technique, LH, melodic phrasing, on and on... etc.).
I will not sound like anyone else here. That much I can guarantee.
My teacher BTW made a point in his personal playing to NOT QUOTE any vocabulary. In fact, he said he would cringe if did quote vocabulary. It's because he wants to come up with something different.
I don't think Charlie Parker was quoting vocabulary either. For some reason, they already had a message. Amazing when you think about it.
Here's why I don't play intervalic, quartal, outside/chromatic kind of stuff. This is Cm blues with overdubbed bass lines. LH is only quartal voicings with chromatic side-stepping. RH is mostly pentatonic/modal and triad pairs, again with chromatic side-stepping.
I just don't have the control needed for this. I've practiced this kind of stuff alot, but I can't quite hear and predict where I'm going and keep it connected to the underlying changes so that it's clear what's happening.
Anybody else care to take a stab at this approach?
Oh, and the background noise in the recording is my washing machine!
If I go further I could probably say that any combination of notes would sound good in the appropriate place - hard to prove though as note choice is virtually unlimited.
I'm not sure this is true. There is always something that makes melody make sense, as there are always a number of things that detract from a group of notes having any meaning, otherwise what would the difference be between a cat walking across a keyboard and a jazz player playing certain notes over the same changes? Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by appropriate place exactly. Doesn't this imply some rules?
I'm fairly certain there is some algorithm that can be applied to how melody BASICALLY works, especially given the constraints of some underlying harmonic structure, implied or stated.
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.
If I go further I could probably say that any combination of notes would sound good in the appropriate place - hard to prove though as note choice is virtually unlimited.
I'm not sure this is true. There is always something that makes melody make sense, as there are always a number of things that detract from a group of notes having any meaning, otherwise what would the difference be between a cat walking across a keyboard and a jazz player playing certain notes over the same changes? Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by appropriate place exactly. Doesn't this imply some rules?
I'm fairly certain there is some algorithm that can be applied to how melody BASICALLY works, especially given the constraints of some underlying harmonic structure, implied or stated.
If there is an algorithm then why hasn't anybody been able to find it? Could it be because it doesn't exist? Of course it is just my opinion, but Pilc says exactly the same thing here… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo71IYASARo "what makes a good melody nobody knows"
I learnt that myself by spending a rather long time transcribing those beautiful long chromatic lines that Jarrett plays. When I played them out of context they sounded like nothing, bad even, but in the right place they are just perfect. I can analyse the notes and scales and relationship to the harmony but that is not what makes them good imo. The magic is in the moment and not the notes.
That is burning. I have never heard of that pianist before but a little sleuthing told me who it was. Brilliant. I was going to post me playing a blues but I think he said it all.
I've been playing with a lot of people. Dozens, I guess that's what happens when you're an amateur like myself, you try everybody out.
Few weeks ago, I got invited to fill in for a rehearsal. No biggie. It's a tenor I had played a couple of gigs with before. At the drummer's house, small Korg keyboard. Whatever. The guys all brought sheets from obscure tunes. I played very average all evening, not knowing the tunes, and on a keyboard that wasn't mine, you know how it goes. Anyway, I was very impressed with the drummer. It was like, everything I was about to play, he already knew. Anytime, I'd pick a comping pattern, he'd be right there. Any solo I'd play, he'd get the hits perfect, as if he knew exactly what I was gonna play. All that with a constant smile on his face.
I asked my regular bass player last week if he knew him. He said, "Yes, of course, that guy's amazing. Did you know he knew Bill Evans? He played with everybody". Ah, and apparently, he's been enjoying a medical career and now taking it easy with retirement, playing with folks that I play with, making the small bucks like the rest of us amateurs.
So, I've invited this guy to come over and play with us. I have a really solid tenor player and bass, so that could be exciting....
