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Hello guys and gals, this will be the Grad school thread where learning Jazzers at the Intermediate to Advanced Levels can ask questions, blog, learn, share ideas, post music, discuss more advanced Jazz concepts.

If you're an expert and are beyond learning, and have a Jazz Grammy or think you deserve one, then you don't belong here.

I'm hoping that more advanced players can pop in and share and critique. Just to be clear, I'm not going to be the 'expert' here providing information. I'm just learning too and will use this to blog about my progress and hopefully others will too. So the goal here is that learning together perhaps we can learn from each other.

I'm starting this thread in the Adult Beginner's Forum because it's a lot friendlier here and it is assumed that we're all learning. We don't care how many years you've been playing Jazz. As long a you think you're still learning, you're welcome here.

If you're at a beginning level and want to ask more beginning level questions, please see this thread:

Jazz Study Group: Autumn Leaves, ATTYA, etc.

Credit to Wizard of Oz for this fantastic link:

Bill Evans Interview - McPartland Jazz
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92185496

Here he talks about Rhythmic displacement as something he specifically worked on.

To me Evan's Rhythmic displacement is just grouping the notes with accents. For example, when I learned this before, in a 4/4 tune, one would group notes in accented groups of three.

But what else is he doing here? This is not the same concept of Brad Mehldau's Rhythmic displacement I think where ideas cross over the barline to a different chord (ahead or behind). Or at least I couldn't hear it the first time if it's there.

Maybe you sharper guys can point out specific points in the recording to listen to.

BTW - the quality of the recording is fantastic. One really gets a sense of Bill's control over the piano. His tone is amazing.

Evans notes above that he always has a 'structure' (theoretical) figured out for his tune. He pre-plans the concepts.

A very 'anti-Gyro approach'

Good idea jazzwee. All musicians learn until the day they die.

Right now I'm working on 2 things:

1) Playing with singers.

I'm doing rehearsals with a singer, and I don't have much experience playing accompaniment. I'm so used to playing lead where I play the melody and dictate the pace.

With a singer, I need to be listening to where she is is going with the tune, and not dictate the pace. I've found timing to be very important, you can't use rubato as liberally.

I'm going to also be jamming with an opera singer, just meet up and see what happens. That should be interesting!


2) Playing modal pieces.

I'm playing some Wayne Shorter tunes right now, Nefertitti and Infant Eyes. The melodies sound great, but the harmony doesn't follow standard jazz progressions. Shorter throws in these non-functional chords that shift the tone of the piece. Infant eyes uses sus chords alot and resolves by going down a semi-tone major 7th.

What I have most trouble with is balancing the harmony, because say G sus to Gb major 7th isn't used too often as a progression.

Herbie Hancock's Dolphin dance is another I love. It uses more pedal points that don't resolve normally.

I find I need to go over small chunks of the song and really drill into my mind the progressions. You can't just wander aimless on a 2-5-1 over these things.

Agreed -- but I figure we should be exclusionary of anyone with too big of an ego

BTW - Dolphin Dance is one my faves and maybe I can try recording where I am with that one of these days. We can compare notes.

One other thing I'm working on (as if I have enough time), is to learn about McCoy Tyner type of stuff from Roger (Lot2Learn). Great stuff. Once you follow the logic of his voicings, it's pretty simple. I jammed on it a little last night.

Would love to hear your version of it jazzwee. Marian Mcpartland herself played it on her show, the one where Christian McBride was the guest.

Big egos are all too common with musicians, just look at some rock stars and the way they act.

Miles Davis was known to be a gruff. Most of the jazz giants seem quite humble. Herbie, Chick, Evans, Oscar, when you hear them talk they respect the music.

Keith Jarrett on the other hand needs to lose the attitude, esp his insistence on complete silence and no flash photos from the audience. One cough and he'll stop playing mid song. His outburst at the Umbria jazz festival a few years back was infamous. These are the very people who are making him rich.

Wiz, I thought we were buddies. Now you put me in the same sentence with Marian McPartland. Am I supposed to play Dolphin Dance at her level?

I don't understand what it is you don't understand. Understand?

Balancing the harmony with...?

Ok, I actually found one in the Mark Levine book...but there is no Gsus to Gbmaj. Was it the Gbmaj to Fsus you are talking about in bars 5 to 6? In any case, have you tried looking at the chords as groups rather than independently? What strikes me is that one voicing can be used for about two or three chords at a time, with the notes of the chords changing functions depending on what the bass is doing.

Wiz, if I see | Gsus | GbMaj7 | then I'd assume it's chromatic and look for the common tone, which in this case would be F right? The rest I just imagine the chord tones a half step away.

There's a tune I used to do. Along Came Betty (Benny Golson), which had a lot of these chromatic chords and it's good to focus on the common tone to connect ideas.

That seems to simplify it for me.

+1

Ok, I've got something else: Scale theory! Seriously though. Try this.

Forget the number thing I was talking about for a bit, and look at the notes F, G, Bb and C on the piano. That's your scale until you get to the A7 chord. After that A7 Chord, which is the transition you will use the notes Eb, F, Ab and Bb as your scale notes.

If you play your melody with only those notes on the Infant Eyes changes (until the pedal section which is another set of stuff) you'll get the quartal melody stuff you may be seeking. But maybe that wasn't your question?

Then you can put the numbers back in and see how they fit if you like.

I haven't really done Wayne Shorter much, maybe because he's not a pianist. I love his compositions too, though Footprints is probably the only one I know well (will have to change that...).

Is Wayne Shorter into quartals too? I know his music is Modal, but for example, Maiden Voyage is clearly quartal in nature with all those Sus chords and of course the voicing.

There's nothing new under my jazz sun, apparently!

Word just in: "...jazz musicians think of scales, or modes, when they improvise, because it's easier than thinking chords." Any guess who, among others may have said this? initials ML, pg. 59, para 3. TJPB, if anyone knows this guy.

I got this book probably over 20 years ago when it was first published, and only now do I come to realize what he is talking about!

So it turns out I'm not nuts, or even original (not that I thought numbering notes was original.)



I'm still not sure how others play Waynes Infant Eyes, but it really works as a with thinking about entire sections of bars with one set of melody notes. But in the Mark Levine example that got me interested in playing this tune, it appears that it may not have been intended that way.

Anyone else know?

What you are talking about with trying to use the same melody notes within several bars is exactly the "theme" idea I was talking about with your numbered notes thread. It's what my teacher calls a step above thinking of modes, scales, or even chord tones.

It requires some thinking of the structure of the music in advance (exactly what Bill Evans was saying in the video above). Searching for common tones and such. Dolphin Dance would be a great example of where this is applicable because the jumps in the chords and modulations will make you forget where you are. Now I don't seem to get lost in Dolphin Dance and the melodies are in my ear and not in my fingers anymore.

Wiz -- I haven't had time yet to record but I tried playing Dolphin tonight and apparently I can still play it. So I'm shooting for some free time to do it.

You may want to record where you are with it. I spent quite a bit of time studying the voicings to use in it and my teacher with the bionic ears picked it out from the recording, hopefully exactly (where practical to use in solo piano).

I see. Ok, then let's take the discussion from there when I am talking about this scale theory thing. It has occurred to me for a long time that the only successful way to move through changes was to find that 'hidden scale' or the theme as you call it. If this isn't somehow prevalent in the soloing, then it can sound like one is really just moving between different scales.

As for planning ahead, I think that is how it must have happened for me, too. I had to play through Infant Eyes a few times to see if I could help Wiz, and the notes just kind of floated up as the structural basis for why the chords were there. I'm not sure I have ever really done it on songs that I've played a billion times. I think this is because I become programmed to wanting to sound good, rather than to look for a superstructure and deal with how the whole song really works.

I'm finding it harder these days too, NOT to sound like the people I'm listening to. In some ways this is pretty cool, but in other ways I don't like being called or thinking of myself as a poor imitator of someone. I don't even want to be a good imitator, and have never sought that.



How unfortunate. Both ears?!? Was it some sort of industrial accident? I've read about things like bionics, but have never met anyone that actually has them.

hey guys...good discussions here. If I could play Dolphin Dance 1/10th as good as Herbie I'd be very happy. And McPartland is quite the player herself. I love her enthusiasm for jazz, it shows in her interviews. She does a special improv for certain guests, called "A Portrait for..." when she's in the mood. Totally improvised and cool.

As for Infant Eyes, I saw it first from the Levine book too, then heard the recording. Beautiful song. Yeah it's the Major7 to Sus progression, I forget the exact chord as I didn't have it with me.

What I find hardest for these types of songs is memorizing the chord progression. Especially DD, the melody is in my head, but sometimes the left hand takes a second to react as I'm trying to remember where it goes.

sceptical...I think I finally got your numbering system, it was just a different way of saying it. Thinking of melody first and foremost. I sometimes envy those horn players who only need to think of 1 note at a time while playing, Miles had it easy!!

I need to buy a recording device. I borrowed my friend's for my older songs but don't have it now. That's my excuse so I want to hear you play it first! hahha...kidding.

I just finished listening to a killer version of Dolphin Dance, Herbie's trio with Jack D and Dave Holland.

You can get it here:

http://urge2burge.wordpress.com/2007/11/25/hancockhollanddejohnette-montreal-2662003/

btw, that site is like being a kid in a candy store. I did some recordings from the public radio here and sent him some, he's got pretty much anything you'd want to hear.

Wow -- great site Wiz! Listening to that version of DD. Nice to be able to get an MP3. Very different from his other DD versions. They're all great.

The original version though is almost delicate in it's simplicity.

I just found a version of DD done by Bill Evans, on his album I will Say Goodbye. Never knew he did a cover of it. I'm going to try and have a listen.