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#2264884 - 04/21/14 09:20 AM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7419
Loc: France
Something can be noticed :

You hear the primary beat at a certain level

It is then more easy to recreate it in the tuned unison , at that level (for instance you hear a 4:2 beat more evident, and create a 2nd partial beat in the unison, both beats have the same coloration.

Now about final justness, that one relates more to theoretical model of partial matching justness than on congruence of partials all together (plus fundamental) .
I accept partial matches as a reality of course, but their usefulness for tuning is limited in my opinion .

To learn, yes, to learn to be precise, too, then a small switch to intervals activity (or beat speed) may be useful in my opinion.

Best regards
_________________________
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#2264907 - 04/21/14 10:51 AM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 405
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano
Do NOT play D5 while detuning the DSU.

Ok. So you have determined that A5 is flat by about 1bps from pure. You also insightfully refer to the sensitivity of the pin.

So, you know that A5 must go up by the smallest amount.

Play A5 ONLY, and listen to the clean DSU you recently tuned.

Play the A5 DSU and pick a string and nudge it up, breath on it, massage it up, whatever. You just want to hear the tone change a tiny bit. Maybe its colour just brightens a bit, or you hear a slow whine. If the NSL tension is close to the tension band limit, it will move. If not, you have two choices: massage harder, or move the foot. Impact may also work here.

For me, it is at this point that I get the best feedback on where, exactly, the NSL tension is, within the tension band, and can be more sure of my stability, without test blows.

Then, bring the other string up, erasing the colour or whine you just created, and restoring the unison colour you like, blooming or dead on.

Now, you have just raised the pitch of A5, the smallest amount possible.


Okay, this answers the question for me. I have a good deal of experience with shimming, so no need to explain there.

You listen to the tests, and then separately move the unison. Every time then, the movement is a guess. You must not be tuning by whole tone, but strictly by estimation of partial distances to where the note is within tolerance.

This is what has always frustrated me with this approach. Talking with you about it has brought me something - to hear someone so passionate and also experienced with a technique; to confirm that the issues I've experienced with it are the same.

The only disagreement I have with the claims of this technique is: error from the ideal point can still be larger than the Weinreich effect. Other than that, it should be a quick way to estimate pitches, putting more emphasis on unison stability, which may be a great practice for beginners.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

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#2264950 - 04/21/14 12:50 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1129
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Consider that there is no ideal. Only a window in which we are pleased.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2264972 - 04/21/14 02:09 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7419
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Consider that there is no ideal. Only a window in which we are pleased.


I like to think I have some sensibility that allows me to perceive the margin, top and bottom, while those 2extremes seem to result from a different approach to the problem.
Circumstances are also allowing that margin to be more or less small.

On any tuning, in the end, an accurate listening will point some weakness in a part of the resulting harmony.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2265006 - 04/21/14 04:32 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7419
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
YES! I thought so.

Do NOT play D5 while detuning the DSU.

Ok. So you have determined that A5 is flat by about 1bps from pure. You also insightfully refer to the sensitivity of the pin.

So, you know that A5 must go up by the smallest amount.

Play A5 ONLY, and listen to the clean DSU you recently tuned.

Play the A5 DSU and pick a string and nudge it up, breath on it, massage it up, whatever. You just want to hear the tone change a tiny bit. Maybe its colour just brightens a bit, or you hear a slow whine. If the NSL tension is close to the tension band limit, it will move. If not, you have two choices: massage harder, or move the foot. Impact may also work here.

F


Mark, I know it is just an example, but a 1bps is yet a noticeable beat, particularly in the a5 range. why not creating a 1bps in A5, directly, it is not that slow to ask for very small changes, the pin can be moved yet somehow. In mean, 1bps is not moaning but clearly a relatively fast beat. with a 4-5 seconds sustain we have enough time.

Regards


Edited by Olek (04/21/14 04:46 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2265038 - 04/21/14 06:09 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1129
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I've got 14 reasons why I don't tune A5 directly. If the choice was only mute strip or open unison via single string, I'd use the strip.

Cheers,
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2265069 - 04/21/14 07:44 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7419
Loc: France
I was not attentive it was a 5th; then you create a 5th "in the unison" , does not need to be tune clean first in that case, I think.

you can tune the second string of A5 to the 5th kind beat + 1 bps.
it was what I mean - if you want to get a pure 5th you tune a 1 bps in the upper note unison directly.
I miss something ?
Best
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2265143 - 04/21/14 11:43 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1129
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Sorry, I think we have a language barrier. I'm not getting the point. Désolé. Je pense que on a une probleme avec le transduction. Essayez en français?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2265172 - 04/22/14 03:59 AM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7419
Loc: France
Sorry Mark

I wanted to say you can create a beat in 2 strings of the same note that sound as the M3 or M or 5th beat( as whichever interval you are looking for)

Then there is no need to have yet 2 strings in unison in the note you are tuning. (while I see your point, about Weinreich...)
As a control is to be done why not doing it when the 2 strings are in unison, before tuning the last one.

One need 2 tuning mutes and not one.

Regards
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2266175 - 04/23/14 11:33 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1129
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I still don't understand. Tune 2 strings to beat match the interval, and then what?

That's what I do, but then just clean up the unison.

There are two things here that I think some people are missing. How it is fast, and how it is precise.

For me, this technique is fast, very fast, and extremely accurate; the most highest precision tuning I have ever done.

Then why can't people replicate the results?

Simple. It took me two years to get comfortable with it.

People have mentioned that it is not accurate, yet others site Unison Cracking or Shimming as an ultra high precision method for concert tuning. DSU is beat matching, then shimming.

When I fit a note into a P4 window, I produce SBI intervals that are so clean and consistent, I have no idea how I would be able to do that "directly" i.e. with single strings, listening to the sound of only one SBI interval while tuning.

Fitting the note into the P4 window is like listening to four intervals at once, for compromise, and then fitting the note so it is compromising with all four intervals at the same degree. Shimming is the only way I can do that; the precision is that fine.

And don't techs most times check a 'directly' tuned note with all the other interval checks after tuning the single string, and adjust if necessary? That uses a directly tuned interval as an approximation, just like beat matching.

I have to apologize because I have done a very poor job explaining the merits of this approach. It was intuitive to me. Enough for me to invest one year practicing and slowing down my tuning time in order to improve my skill at using it. I was hoping more people would be interested but I know how attached techs can get to their techniques. I have only just started using a different temperament sequence after saying I would never change. We invest time and energy into learning a technique and then that investment is very hard to throw away. I used to call people who tuned without mute strips "old school" and couldn't imagine myself doing that. I thought "way too slow and for no benefit". But then again, my unisons and stability were horrible, and I was the only one who didn't know it.

No worries though, I am committed to continue developing it and discussing it whenever and wherever people are interested.

I'm always available for questions, and I have a few more videos and recordings I've made that I will be putting up on my website soon.

Thanks all who read and commented.

Isaac, maybe if you wrote out some notes, step by step, I would understand better what you were getting at.

Best Regards,
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2266195 - 04/24/14 12:34 AM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 405
Loc: Boston, MA
I am genuinely interested in hearing more. I'm not interested in being sold something. This forum is just here to share knowledge for the pleasure of it.

I have a very open mind to things and if you can explain clearer what you are doing, I would like to hear it.

It seemed like you were using a system where you tuned the two string unison and checked, then retuned. I can't see how that process is efficient, so you must be leaving out some key information.

I tune single strings to the whole tone of several notes, and check using several partials. I shim the two string unison if it has fallen flat (it doesn't always), and go back to tuning a single string if the shimming does not prove accurate. Except for the temperament octave, I tune using one mute on the entire piano. Open strings.

Sometimes tuning a single string again after tuning a unison pair will result in a note with no perceptible pitch drop, as the net tension is higher which lends itself to more stability. By hearing a single string at a time, I can correlate pin movement to partial movement, which is different for every piano. When I shim (if I do), then it is not a guess.

I have found that by tuning two strings at once, what is to be gained in stability is often lost in accuracy.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

Top
#2266300 - 04/24/14 06:38 AM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7419
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I still don't understand. Tune 2 strings to beat match the interval, and then what?

That's what I do, but then just clean up the unison.

There are two things here that I think some people are missing. How it is fast, and how it is precise.

For me, this technique is fast, very fast, and extremely accurate; the most highest precision tuning I have ever done.

Then why can't people replicate the results?

Simple. It took me two years to get comfortable with it.

People have mentioned that it is not accurate, yet others site Unison Cracking or Shimming as an ultra high precision method for concert tuning. DSU is beat matching, then shimming.

When I fit a note into a P4 window, I produce SBI intervals that are so clean and consistent, I have no idea how I would be able to do that "directly" i.e. with single strings, listening to the sound of only one SBI interval while tuning.

Fitting the note into the P4 window is like listening to four intervals at once, for compromise, and then fitting the note so it is compromising with all four intervals at the same degree. Shimming is the only way I can do that; the precision is that fine.

And don't techs most times check a 'directly' tuned note with all the other interval checks after tuning the single string, and adjust if necessary? That uses a directly tuned interval as an approximation, just like beat matching.

I have to apologize because I have done a very poor job explaining the merits of this approach. It was intuitive to me. Enough for me to invest one year practicing and slowing down my tuning time in order to improve my skill at using it. I was hoping more people would be interested but I know how attached techs can get to their techniques. I have only just started using a different temperament sequence after saying I would never change. We invest time and energy into learning a technique and then that investment is very hard to throw away. I used to call people who tuned without mute strips "old school" and couldn't imagine myself doing that. I thought "way too slow and for no benefit". But then again, my unisons and stability were horrible, and I was the only one who didn't know it.

No worries though, I am committed to continue developing it and discussing it whenever and wherever people are interested.

I'm always available for questions, and I have a few more videos and recordings I've made that I will be putting up on my website soon.

Thanks all who read and commented.

Isaac, maybe if you wrote out some notes, step by step, I would understand better what you were getting at.

Best Regards,


Hello Mark, at some level when tuning discovering that the easiness of using a strip mute can lend to some sterility of tone, and a less good control on intervals, is a good discovery.
I guess I said you are obliged to take in account the consonance and the "whole tone" when tuning temperament and the whole piano with 2 mutes only.
You are also have more freedom to work the piano tone (assuming you have a little idea of what you expect)

It is less disturbing for the ear than one think.

And rejuvenating after years of strip muting.

AT that point, if wanted you can work very fast indeed.

As when leaving the sustain pedal engaged, the ear catch on the quietest point relatively easily. The tuning can however be too much driven by the iH of the piano in that case, so beat progression and beats controls are important.

If I use such method, I tend to stick with the octave, as it may contain most of what I need for almost the whole piano.
But octave is used to tune all the other intervals of course, and checked with 12th double octave etc, the result of a single choice have to be assessed or it is easy to end with too large triple octaves for instance.

The portion of the piano where most chords are played is not using really enlarged octaves, whenever possible. attention is given to some octave quality where if some beat arise it is due to a better focus on partials and fundamental.
It should be near of 2;1 and 4:2 than 6:3 and 4:2 probably.

That concentration of partials in mediums gives a foundation for the expansion in the treble and basses, that allows more possible "design" of the curve probably .

The warmness of the tone is not killed by the straightening obtained with stretch.

That type of tuning is easier to attain with a whole tone tuning of temperament, extended or no, in my opinion.

Sorry if it sound OT, it is not so much, Mark.

My impression when tuning that way is that I attain the shimming mode while making the initial approach, and then I do my shimming in the full resonance of the piano.

I agree that it may take some time to do that naturally.
As we are working with the "presence" and crispness of tone at all times, it may give a sonically very enjoyable piano.

The fastest beating intervals need to be tested to avoid screaming, in fact when tuning it works as when tuning with sustain pedal engaged, the M3, 10th 17th slow naturally in high treble, for instance (does not rise in speed abruptly).

Whenever time permit I will try to record that on a good piano.

Best regards
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2268481 - 04/29/14 02:52 AM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1643
Loc: Mexico City
Wwwoooowwwww!!! What a clean 6 strings octave!

Impessive Mark.

Thanks for posting this.

I would have liked to watch also your hammer technique. It's amazing how you seem to get it right on spot in just one move.

I would love to see a video of you tuning the whole temperament with this DSU technique.

Again thanks alot.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2268986 - 04/30/14 06:27 AM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 590
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
I tried some of this technique (I think) today on a client's piano. Actually only about an octave in the treble during the second pass of a serious pitch raise. Naturally it was slowing me down because I am not used to it, so I felt compelled eventually to revert back to my usual ways.

As, you know Mark, I had tuned a whole piano this way last year because it was a difficult Eavestaff mini-piano with inaccessibility to muting when tuning because of the location of the strings. Since then I have not used the technique until today.

My query at this stage is whether or not what I did is really your method or not, given the comments I have read from Tunewerk about confusion listening to multiple beatings. What I did was to mute off the right string for the note to be tuned and get a good unison on the remaining two strings. Then, I listened to the beat rate with the already tuned note an octave below. With the memory of the beat speed in my mind I de-tuned the two string unison to match that beat speed. Then I brought the open other string to bring it back into unison. The process was repeated if there was a noticeable remnant beating in the octave, but remarkably, mostly they sounded pretty good for a pitch-raise pass. The third string was finally un-muted and brought into unison with the other two. There is no simultaneous multiple beatings going on with this method, but I did need to have a sequential temporary memory of beat speeds.
Am I doing what you have been teaching?


Edited by Chris Leslie (04/30/14 06:27 AM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2269147 - 04/30/14 03:52 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1643
Loc: Mexico City
You are lucky to not hear multiple beat rates. I have bad times trying to hear only the one I want. Lol.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2269169 - 04/30/14 04:45 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7419
Loc: France
Octaves can be tuned that way. For other intervals I find it to be imprecise .

But it is in the same mood that tuning intervals with unisons made up. You can catch on a color. An activity, that works with your memory, mental reference of what is sounding good.

If you go along just with beat rates it is surprising how the beat with 2 strings can sound the same than with 2 notes.

Regards
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2269196 - 04/30/14 05:53 PM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Gadzar]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 590
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
You are lucky to not hear multiple beat rates. I have bad times trying to hear only the one I want. Lol.

Perhaps I should have re-worded. The intervals had dominant beats with secondary beating not enough to interfere with beat rate perception. This is normally the case with most intervals but does becomes a problem for me with wound strings.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

Top
#2270807 - 05/04/14 02:27 AM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Chris Leslie]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1129
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
I tried some of this technique (I think) today on a client's piano. Actually only about an octave in the treble during the second pass of a serious pitch raise. Naturally it was slowing me down because I am not used to it, so I felt compelled eventually to revert back to my usual ways.

As, you know Mark, I had tuned a whole piano this way last year because it was a difficult Eavestaff mini-piano with inaccessibility to muting when tuning because of the location of the strings. Since then I have not used the technique until today.

My query at this stage is whether or not what I did is really your method or not, given the comments I have read from Tunewerk about confusion listening to multiple beatings. What I did was to mute off the right string for the note to be tuned and get a good unison on the remaining two strings. Then, I listened to the beat rate with the already tuned note an octave below. With the memory of the beat speed in my mind I de-tuned the two string unison to match that beat speed. Then I brought the open other string to bring it back into unison. The process was repeated if there was a noticeable remnant beating in the octave, but remarkably, mostly they sounded pretty good for a pitch-raise pass. The third string was finally un-muted and brought into unison with the other two. There is no simultaneous multiple beatings going on with this method, but I did need to have a sequential temporary memory of beat speeds.
Am I doing what you have been teaching?


Ya Baby!

Isn't it cool when the octave sounds good after one iteration?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2270809 - 05/04/14 02:30 AM Re: Double String Unison (DSU) Tuning Technique [Re: Gadzar]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1129
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Wwwoooowwwww!!! What a clean 6 strings octave!

Impessive Mark.

Thanks for posting this.

I would have liked to watch also your hammer technique. It's amazing how you seem to get it right on spot in just one move.

I would love to see a video of you tuning the whole temperament with this DSU technique.

Again thanks alot.


Thanks for the compliment.

I got one done and will post soon. I'm uploading a video as we speak, of a piano I tuned with pure 19ths using my P4 window technique. You gotta hear this. It's like a different piano.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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