Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Piano Tuning DIYers

Has anybody else noticed how DIYers tend to ask questions about tuning and repair, that have nothing to do with the actual tuning or repairing of pianos?

I really don't know how to explain it. I am not trying to belittle their efforts. On the contrary. While there are many methods out there that I feel can help someone learn piano tuning relatively easily, most of the time I find the difficulty I have is convincing some people of what they should be focussing on when they appear to be looking in a direction that is not leading them closer to tuning proficiency at all.

To me, the difficulty of actually explaining a particular method or technique is relatively easy in comparison; once a student makes a commitment to learn the right way, and trusts the teacher, the learning takes place quite easily.

It's like they are working and thinking in a vacuum, and feel some pride at having discovered some relationship or observed some way the piano is behaving, and think it has some importance, when there is none at all.

How can we explain the importance of respecting the work that technicians before them have done, and the problems they have encountered and solved? By respecting, I don't mean revering, I mean looking to those problems and solutions as a way to fast track their own progress, instead of reinventing the wheel.

I would like to hear from other technicians who have observed this and how they have managed to convince students to change the focus of their efforts and get them to look outside of themselves to discover what elements of piano tuning and repair are the more important to focus on, in order to become proficient at this skill in a more efficient manner.

I'm starting to think, you can't.

Well, my direct experience is more with DIY technical repairs and rebuilding -- although I certainly have some experience with DIY tuning, as well.

I think you have identified some definite challenges faced by some DIY people. I think there are at least two components to the phenomenon -- 1) The "you don't know what you don't know" phenomenon, and 2) the delusion that all relevant knowledge is available on the internet -- perhaps primarily YouTube.

Part of it is personality related. A substantial subset of the DIY crowd are what I call the "shade-tree mechanics" and the professional engineers. Both of these groups have a successful track record of figuring things out and, as a result, have a level of confidence in their abilities that enables them to consider the DIY approach in the first place. It kind of goes with the territory -- if they didn't have some level of confidence, they would be less likely to consider the DIY option.

The downside is that a significant subset of those folk have difficulty realizing that in the practice of a craft, not all variables are immediately obvious -- or subject to figuring out by reverse engineering. These folk have difficulty realizing that there are other significant factors that they simply haven't realized or conceived of. For example, some folk attempt to re-use centerpins -- never realizing (nor having any basis to know) that centerpins come long and pointed and are then cut off after installation.

The weakness of the "all answers are on YouTube" mentality is that there is such a range of material -- from absolute garbage to the occasional brilliant presentation, and everything in between -- and beginners to a topic simply don't have the background to evaluate the valid from the bogus and to sort out which is which.

But, you are right that there needs to be a trust level of the student for the teacher -- and a belief on the student's part that the teacher knows more than the student. I've seen this in other areas, as well. For example, my wife is a violinist and I recall one advanced student that came to her near the end of the year. Anything my wife said to correct the student's technique was met with the student glancing at her parent and failing to cooperate. Recital time came fairly soon after and after all the students play then my wife does something. That year she played a couple of movements from a Bach partita -- technically demanding stuff. After seeing that, the student no longer questioned what she was being taught.

And I experience the same thing with some of the folk that contact me for help. Some just have to experience the validity of what I'm telling them for themselves.

Very good points Keith. Thanks.

Switch the word "pride" with "excitement," and the shading of the picture changes to reveal that aspect of the human spirit where curiosity accrues to the level of motivation--a personal "Eureka!" moment where the excitement is so great that one runs into the street shouting for joy, exuberantly seeking others with whom to celebrate the discovery. I remember how excited I was when I "heard" my first clean unison! More recently, I was just as excited when I discovered that tuning bass was not so much about "hearing" with my ears as it was about "feeling" with my whole body.

Some who are further along will see the "discoveries" of the inexperienced for what they are and say, "Isn't that cute?," and, rather than squelching that excitement, say, "Yes! And...," joining with them to bring them farther in and farther along.

It might be worth noting that when traditionalists and iconoclasts lock horns, sometimes the result is lasting innovation. A respect for that process can sometimes help a teacher moderate the exuberance of the neophyte "know-it-all," respecting his/her creativity while relating the fundamentals.

Of course, speaking in generalities is fraught with its own set of perils, so please understand that these comments can stand to be qualified in an infinite number of ways.

--Andy

When I get a question from a DIYer about tuning that has nothing to do with tuning, (like what time of day is best for tuning a piano?) I tell them politely that the time of day has nothing to do with tuning and leave a pregnant silence. If the conversation is left at that the whole thing dies a much needed death.

I think what you're describing here might be a manifestation of mechanical aptitude vs. musical understanding. Both are fundamentally important to working on pianos, and especially to tuning.

Someone whose greatest strength is mechanical aptitude and is interested in pianos for that reason, is probably more likely to zero in on mechanical problems and mechanical solutions. On the other hand, someone whose greatest strength is an understanding and love of music will notice musical things, but perhaps at the expense of mechanics in some cases.

These are also, of course, gross generalizations. Most have some combination of the two aptitudes. But I think it's important to stress to anyone learning the craft that both mechanical and musical aptitude are essential, and must be balanced.

As for getting people to realize that they don't know everything and need to trust their teacher . . . well, let us know if you ever get a solution for that!

But the time zone becomes very important. You happen to live in ET Zone. That's important information.

There are some DYIers that come to the realization that if it is to be at all, they have to learn how to do it themselves.

Mark, students who progress enough to go out in the field and start doing the work will actually learn quite fast what to concentrate on in order to move ahead. They would be out of business in short time if they didn't have that flexibility. As long as they keep their ears open to feedback, the clients will partially dictate what direction to go and how far to go.

Every country, with its geographical areas, culture, and levels of class/wealth dictates its own needs in the trade, just as much as the pianos themselves do. Maxymillyan in KZ would have very different situations and expectations for what he is doing compared to a technician working in downtown L.A. or N.Y. I remember my teacher in the mid 80's pointing out sections in Reblitz'z book and saying that even though its good to know, we will rarely run into pianos in our area that will require that fix...or the fact that its not warranted, or even, few customers will pay for it.

In regards to garnering respect towards techs, from those DIYers who are heck bent on reinventing the wheel....its not worth the effort to try and change this. Learn to recognize it quickly and leave it wide birth. Some people need to make their own mistakes in order to facilitate change/progress. Some of them will not recognize advancement even when they achieve it. As Kurt Vonnegut said, "Beware the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before".

Have you ever played Battleship, by Milton Bradley? Learning something from scratch is like that: one guesses, and it's the misses that teach one just as much as the hits.

Here is a passage from Kontrtapunkt, by none other than Heinrich Schenker, on the subject of teaching.

“Nothing is more terrifying than a teacher who knows no more than the students are to know. Whoever wants to teach others may conceal the best of his knowledge, but must never be a dabbler.” More than to any other field, this maxim of Goethe’s applies to instruction in counterpoint.
It is high time at last to gain clarity about what the theory of counterpoint ought to accomplish. First of all, the teacher has to learn to distinguish between counterpoint and free composition and to justify the prescriptions and restrictions he provides, so as to be able to explain forthrightly to the student the apparent contradictions between the theory of counterpoint and one or another voice-leading procedure in (for example) Beethoven. Once and for all, the response – as fatuous as it is barbaric – with which many a teacher dismisses his inquisitive students must finally be abandoned: “Yes, when you are a Beethoven, you too may write that way.” Doesn’t the teacher realize how poorly such an answer serves as an explanation? Doesn’t he realize that the moral slap in the face he believes himself to have dispensed to his student is on the contrary, to a far greater degree, only a slap in his own face?
But for the fact that sheer lack of talent – because it really cannot be otherwise – unfortunately must enjoy full immunity forever, the teacher would have to be reprimanded for his impudence in giving the impression that Beethoven had composed poorly! No, it is a thousandfold lie: Beethoven never composed poorly, and has no need of indulgence from a teacher who is not able to hear. Despite such egregious arrogance, however, a few mitigating circumstances may be cited in defense of the teacher. For counterpoint, from its inception to the present, has been misunderstood as hardly any other field. The misconceptions that have accompanied its evolution can even be clearly distinguished both chronologically and substantively.

Thanks for all the responses.

There was this article about stupid questions people ask on cruises and other tours. The most memorable were:

On a cruise passing by an island, a woman asked one of the sailors, "Does the water go all the way around the island?"

And

On a bus tour through a forest they passed a sign that read 'deer crossing.' A woman asked, "How do the deer know where to cross?"

Well, as a DIYer tuner, I thought my tunings were not bad; until a real concert tech tuned my piano and showed me what a concert tuning was… suddenly, my “not bad” tunings became mediocre at best. On the other hand, mediocre is better than being out of tune.

I think the professional tuners here on Piano World simply want to be shown some respect from the DIYers. As far as the DIYer tuners here asking stupid, irrelevant questions, don’t we all at times?

So, here’s a stupid question for you real tuners… what kind of pocket PC do you use for your ET tuning software programs?

Rick

What a stupid question! Real tuners don't need PCs

Well, you may be right...

However, the very well known, world renowned concert tech who tuned my piano used a pocket PC with the Reyburn Cybertuner tuning software.

In any event, never mind… just chalk it up as another stupid DIYer tuner question. I'll figure it out on my own...

Rick

Oh Chris! I know of several real piano tuners that use electronic aids: Jim Coleman (accutuner), Bill Bremmer (accutuner), Randy Potter (accutuner), Kent Swafford (Onlypure), Cy Shuster (verituner), Ron Koval (verituner and tunelab), etc...

I use verituner in a HP pocket PC, and now there is a version for iphone/ipod.

Since I'm the one who tuned Rick's piano, I feel I can jump in here and say a couple of things. I tuned aurally for 35 years before I got the ETD. Even when I'm using an ETD I still do aural tests with every note. I look at the ETD in a completely different way than a tuner who is trying to use one without the aural training.

I think the ETD in the hands of an experienced tuner is just a tool not the defining factor. I deviate from the ETD in my opinion frequently. So why use it? I tell people it's like a GPS. It tells you which direction to go but not what to do when you get there.

Tuning stability is 90 percent of good tuning and an ETD does not teach or coach that unless you count watching your unison fade quickly as you take your hammer off the pin if you haven't achieved stability. Stability allows you to build a tuning from the temperament section into the other sections of the piano.

BUT I tell students that when they start tuning that they won't hear what they need to hear until they have been tuning for 4-5 years. You just don't have a feel or sound in your ear as a goal until you have done this a lot. That explains the situation where novice tuners think their tuning sounds fine. It may sound fine to them but I can guarantee that their work would not stand up to the pounding by concert pianists or be acceptable to recording engineers or God forbid a concert violinist.

As for the time of day, I actually prefer to tune as early in the morning as possible and I don't listen to the music or the radio on the way to the hall. Of course this has nothing to do with the actual piano but more about my starting the day with my ears being a blank slate.

Just in case you didn't see my article in Piano Buyer, here is a sample of my tuning and voicing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeIEvCh5di8

And why do they put those signs where there have been so many accidents? That's the worst place to want the deer to cross.

A marvelous comparison of the uniqueness of two instruments worked on by the same individual. Thank you Sally!