Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2271757 - 05/06/14 07:36 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1258
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Just don't open it when it is in your ear!
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#2271764 - 05/06/14 07:56 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Jeff, my sense of humour is obviously wasted on you. Isaac on the other hand; HE'S my friend.


I have no friends.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2271780 - 05/06/14 08:44 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
that does not matter, if you don't have enemies you life is incomplete wink
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2272063 - 05/06/14 09:11 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Parks]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1258
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Parks
Isn't that how Purcel died? He got into a fight with his wife and she locked him out of the house, and he froze to death over night?


No, that was Jack Nicholson in The Shining ;-)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2272065 - 05/06/14 09:13 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Olek]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1258
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Olek
that does not matter, if you don't have enemies you life is incomplete wink


I have a full life, then!
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2272139 - 05/07/14 12:32 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2272402 - 05/07/14 02:33 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 717
Loc: England
Wow I think someone has hacked into Bill B's account .... an 8 word reply ! wink

Sorry Bill only pulling your leg smile
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

Top
#2272517 - 05/07/14 07:33 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: UnrightTooner]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Nobody has really answered my question. What do you do to reduce ear and joint damage, assuming you do not use ear plugs?


Mark, it seems an odd question.

"How do you keep from getting wet without a raincoat?"

Oh, I don't go out in the rain.

"You haven't answered my question."

Ok... the rain doesn't bother me.

"You still haven't answered my question!"

Huh?


For once, I have to agree with Jeff on this one. It is not really how hard you strike a key but how fast you do that makes a fortissimo sound. There are more than one client I have who consistently breaks the strings in their pianos.

One of them is a Vegan and has the skinniest arms and thinnest looking hands I have ever seen but plays monstrously difficult and complex classical music (all in a non-equal temperament and prefers that for the qualities it brings to the music, in spite of those who say it doesn't make any difference but that is besides the point). He couldn't be very strong and plays for hours on end. If he were "pounding", he would hurt himself but that is not what he does.

As I observe him play, his fingers attack a key to make a fortissimo sound the way a rattle snake bites. The rattle snake bites with such incredible speed that its victim never knows what is coming and that speed allows the snake's teeth to penetrate deeply in mere 100ths of a second. The snake has delivered its venom and retreated before the victim can even react.

Similarly, this pianist I know can attack a key and get it moving fast enough to make a very loud sound but he does not keep his finger moving in that direction long enough to come to a dead stop and therefore injure himself. He only injures the piano strings!

Now, I have often seen such home made devices as key pounders and I even have a few that have been given to me but I have never used them because I simply have no problem with pain from tuning, even though I am now in my 45th year of it and I routinely tune 4 pianos a day and often more during the busiest season. I also approach tuning in a way that many people cannot imagine doing but I have done it that way ever since I saw the late George Defebaugh and Jim Coleman, Sr. demonstrate it back in 1979.

That is to never, never think that I can tune a piano only once and think that it is either in tune or will be stable after I go through it an tune each string only one time. I know it will not be, so I don't try to fool myself into thinking it will be. So, that only doubles all of the motions that I do.

But does it really mean twice as much stress? No, I don't think of it that way at all. It cuts the stress by half or more. Counter intuitively, it also cuts the time needed to produce a rock solid tuning by at least half of what it takes most technicians.

I try to tell people that but I always get back something like, "Tune a piano twice in 45 minutes? (Often it takes me as little as 30) I could never do that! It takes me at least two hours to get through it once!" Or, something like, "If you have to tune the piano twice, you are not setting the pins correctly".

And Mark, (and Jeff too for that matter), since you are the King of the "slow pull" technique, this is not going to sit well with you but I know what I know from so many years experience and that is that just one, swift movement of the tuning hammer does, in fact, tend to move the entire string across all bearing points and tends to move the entire tuning pin from one end of it to the other and therefore does far more to accomplish the end goal in a split second than any wrenching, pulling, pushing and pounding in at least 10 times the amount of time and energy spent could ever do.

Now, there are certainly times when, particularly in the upper 5th and 6th octaves that it seems that as many times as I might strike the key, the pitch continues to go flat. When I encounter that kind of problem, I have no choice but to sharpen the pitch well above the goal and settle it with repeated test blows.

Recently, when I said something about that, I got a comment from Isaac who said it was because I was not setting the pin correctly. I did not respond to that comment. Believe me, I can make such a recalcitrant string find its correct pitch and hold on to it far more effectively and at least 10 times more quickly by the way I routinely handle it than by using any other far more stressful and time consuming method.

It is the, "Wham, bam, thank you, Ma'am" method, if you will. I am done and out of there and the piano, the next time I tune it, six months, a year or sometimes multiple years tells me that I was the last one there and that no other technician had touched it. So much for the, "You can't tell anything..." theory. I know for sure whether I was the last person to tune a piano, no matter how long it has been.

There are some techniques and feeling for a piano that only come with many years experience. The dealer I do a lot of my work for likens it to the kind of experience an over the road truck driver has. One may say a taxi driver too. How about a chef in a kitchen? 5 years is good, 10 years better but when one gets to the point of 15, 20, 25, 30 and beyond years of touching and feeling a piano every working day of one's life, there is no substitute for that kind of experience.

It is something that is nearly impossible to relate in words alone. One learns through experience just how to strike a key quickly enough to create a loud sound that will cause any residual unevenness in tension across the bearing points to resolve themselves and not cause oneself pain or injury by doing so. One learns to react as well to the change that has been made as a result in an equally split second with more split second corrections.

None of that can be accomplished with wrenching, pulling, pounding and "feeling" the pin move. I feel the pin move, yes, just as I would feel a stuck door move with a swift movement rather than just pushing on it slowly. I have developed the technique to know when a tuning pin has moved or not rather instantaneously. I don't need any more than perhaps thousandth of a second to know it.

As for whether or not ear plugs feel comfortable or not, that is just something one has to get used to. I could not bear to tune pianos without them. Sure, they may feel uncomfortable the first few times they are used, just like a seat belt in the car did to me when I first put one on so many years ago. Now, I don't feel comfortable without a seat belt and I certainly don't feel comfortable tuning a piano unless I have ear plugs in place.

If the sensation of something stuffed in the ears is too uncomfortable, then ear muffs will suffice.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2272594 - 05/07/14 11:44 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1258
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Bill's back.

By the way Bill, I've seen you tune. You use slow pull, the way I describe it.

Have you seen me tune? I use impact the way you do.

Look for common ground. We, as tuners, agree on more than we disagree. There are not that many different ways to tune a piano right IMHO.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2272595 - 05/07/14 11:50 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1258
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I don't use ear plugs, have passed the RPT exam with no test blows, and have no hearing loss. I also can tune 6 - 8 pianos in a day with absolutely no fatigue. And I experience no joint pain whatsoever, except when I need to use a little extra on a difficult piano.

So go ahead and tell me what I do shouldn't work, couldn't work, and shouldn't be done. But I won't hear you. I'll have my ear muffs on.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2272618 - 05/08/14 02:43 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Bill, while your thumb is still getting better, can you explain your evidence that what Mark does doesn't work? I believe Mark with his achievements.
How do you know that Mark does not produce stable tunings?
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

Top
#2272630 - 05/08/14 04:33 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
Something I find perplexing about the internet and forums is that we forget that what others write must be taken at face value, and may not be true or accurate. It is just something that they believe and are saying, and once again, this does not make it true or right.

We need to test what others are saying and way up the evidence and be able to sift through all the stuff and get the principles and concepts that are practicable.

The other thing is though we would like to believe everything that others write and say, especially from those who have "Years of Experience", we cannot just believe it to be true or right. Once again, we have to go and test it out for ourselves. Just because someone has years of experience and a name tagged on to the end of their name, does not make them honest or upright. They may just be someone who has atttained to great heights, reached positions of stature and have a several names tagged onto the end of their name, and all of that gained by nefarious means. This is the real world we live in folks.

With regards to slow pull vs impact. I believe there are folks in both camps, that achieve solid and stable tunings.

As to the time that it takes to complete these tunings, I think that any professional tuner, using either of the opposing techniques, will complete the tuning in more or less the same time.

To belittle, attack, accuse and demean people who differ from what they believe is to be narrow minded, bigoted and intolerant. Yes? No?

There is a right way of convincing people and there is a wrong way.

Some peoples children never learn, though they want everyone else to "Know what they know", not knowing what they do not know.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2272635 - 05/08/14 05:27 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
I believe to slow pull as the most efficient training for the pin's lecture.

It is a little addictive to feel pin and wire all along that way, and one tend to avoid loosing the contact then.

It is also a little addictive to directly tune where we want the string and not move it, listen/check, move it, listen, etc in rows.

Bu when the sensations are integrated, they can be used with more speed.

They are just necessary to tune more efficiently. (knowing the difference between the feel of the bottom and the one of the top)


To answer Bill, the pin, pinblock and wire are sort of auto locking system, so we need an amount of control to not allow them to lock before we ask.
old string bends also may refrain the wire to stop where we want.

Regards

I agree tuners have much things in common, more thatn in differences !




Edited by Olek (05/08/14 05:29 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2272646 - 05/08/14 06:18 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Chris Leslie]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3224
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Bill, while your thumb is still getting better, can you explain your evidence that what Mark does doesn't work? I believe Mark with his achievements.
How do you know that Mark does not produce stable tunings?


I never said that what Mark does doesn't work and I never said his tunings are not stable. What I said is that I believe that an impact type technique is more efficient and lessens the need for forceful test blows but does not eliminate that need. I also said that one may give very forceful test blows without causing pain or injury.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2272655 - 05/08/14 06:53 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Sorry Bill, but I had read earlier:
"Wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried!"
which did not sound right, and then I thought that you were then elaborating on this in spite of Mark who is doing his best to educate us with his ways.

One thing for sure is that different people prefer, or have good reasons for, different ways of doing things. I do respect all those with ideas and experiences to share.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

Top
#2272662 - 05/08/14 07:20 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1258
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Thanks Chris.

And Bill, remember I said I saw you tune. If you watch me tune, especially at the beginning of the P19 video, it's frighteningly similar. I believe we tune almost the same way. I may just "sense" the NSL tension more and maybe don't impact as much.

I find it more interesting that we behave much more similarly than we discuss.

Regards,
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2272665 - 05/08/14 07:28 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Bill, while your thumb is still getting better, can you explain your evidence that what Mark does doesn't work? I believe Mark with his achievements.
How do you know that Mark does not produce stable tunings?


I never said that what Mark does doesn't work and I never said his tunings are not stable. What I said is that I believe that an impact type technique is more efficient and lessens the need for forceful test blows but does not eliminate that need. I also said that one may give very forceful test blows without causing pain or injury.


What you use when tuning is years of habits , you feel the pin of course (that is a little new as even perception of the pin was considered useless on that forum 10 years ago)

But you tune as sending a stone, then fine adjust the last bits.

The idea of using slow pull is to be tuning "in real time" so the posture of the pin is similar from note to note.
This can be done very fast or taking time, all depends the amount of confidence in the instrument.

Certainly if a pin is twisted then left, it will spring back and lock. Then if it is not at the ideal position too much is to be done with shimming, and the pin's tress hardly will be similar from string to string.

THe intersting thing with the method I use is that the pin firmness raise and raise in the block, so if I am beginning with a somehow soft sensation, I leave a very firm one and I will find it for all next tunings.

If I find pins yet tight and tense, the tuner that worked before me did know its job well.

Regards




Edited by Olek (05/08/14 08:11 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2272669 - 05/08/14 07:36 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Davis]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Something I find perplexing about the internet and forums


Well it is a well known process now that people tend to disagree very easily, may be to proove their self esteem.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Certainly exaggerated !
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2272675 - 05/08/14 07:52 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1258
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
And thank you Mark D. Your comments are like a breath if fresh air.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

Top
#2272681 - 05/08/14 08:10 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
A young colleague I showed how to "slow pull to stability" passed his diploma exam a little later,

He told me the examiners went crazy banging as heck to obtain some drift. On the complete tuning, 2 notes could move with banging and after having tried harder than usual)

Extra fast hard blow I use, not test blows, they are here to input energy to render the string.

Most of the time I can avoid them.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2272685 - 05/08/14 08:16 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 658
The impact method from what I understand, is just another way of tuning a piano.

At least two things, must be remembered when using the impact method,

1. Check that your pin string unit is solid and stable.
2. Check that your tuning is solid and stable.

It is that same for slow pull.

If we are not getting this right, then we will fail to achieve a good solid and stable tuning.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/08/14 08:19 AM)
Edit Reason: minor correction
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

Top
#2272694 - 05/08/14 08:35 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1291
Loc: Manywheres
With regards to slow pull vs. impact, I'd like to point out that the piano makes a difference.

In the US are are many pianos (e.g., NY Steinway, Baldwin concert grands, and many others) where a slow pull isn't really all that effective. When the contact point of the string is so high up on the tuning pin compared to where the pin leaves the wood, you get a lot of movement in the top of the pin. If one, for example, can easily get 20-50 cents just by moderately moving the top of the pin, a faster impact style of tuning seems to work much better.

On other pianos, without this problem (i.e., where the wire is closer to the wood), a slow pull works great. I think one needs to be able to do both equally well. These are both important techniques to have, depending on how the piano feels and responds.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2272700 - 05/08/14 08:44 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: A443]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443

In the US are are many pianos (e.g., NY Steinway, Baldwin concert grands, and many others) where a slow pull isn't really all that effective. When the contact point of the string is so high up on the tuning pin compared to where the pin leaves the wood, you get a lot of movement in the top of the pin. If one, for example, can easily get 20-50 cents just by moderately moving the top of the pin, a faster impact style of tuning seems to work much better.

On other pianos, without this problem (i.e., where the wire is closer to the wood), a slow pull works great. I think one needs to be able to do both equally well. These are both important techniques to have, depending on how the piano feels and responds.


Why is it so ? they do not use Klinke or similar tuning pins?

I think that even with slow pull a lot of bending can be mastered, certainly it is not that agreable, I agree.

Impact is cool also, if one knows well his instrument it can be used as well, but it is great to be able to decide the amount of stiffening that one installs in the pin/pinblock NSL couple, to have control on that part of the tuning.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2272735 - 05/08/14 09:53 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1291
Loc: Manywheres
Olek, on an open-faced-pinblock (e.g., a Bösendorfer 290), the wire is pulling on the pin at a point that is very close to the opening in the wood [visualise: the wire goes in the hole of the tuning pin, wraps around a few times = this point is what I am talking about]. When this point is close to the wood, there is a very stable and smooth feel to the tuning and very little pin bending that happens--this kind of situation rarely 'needs' and impact technique. If you were to compare that with a NY steinway, there is at least a plate thickness difference in this hight, which results in much more flexibility at the pin.

Essentially we are talking about tuning pin height, but what really matters is that point I described. We could all observe this effect by pounding in the tuning pins in 1/2mm increments and noting the differences as you go: the difference is remarkable.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2272751 - 05/08/14 10:21 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7540
Loc: France
Well yes, but I know how the tuning pin is bending or bowing any time I tune, it just add some springy sensation that have to be differentiated from the rest.
That mean plates are thicker on US instruments generally speaking ? more than 10 mm ?

if that pull the wire to more than 100 cts it is certainly some trouble.

Tuning pin quality is also important. if they are springy and stiff enough this can help tuning, creating small ticks for increments.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2272769 - 05/08/14 11:00 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1291
Loc: Manywheres
The pianos like the D and the SD-10 don't use tuning pin bushings, so the distance between the wood and the string point of contact is at least the thickness of the plate. Whether the plate is 1mm or 10mm, that doesn't matter, it is still significantly MORE distance on the pin than with an open faced pin block [or a properly installed tuning pin bushings]--especially when one can feel a noticeable difference with mere 1/2mm increments in the setting of the pin height.

The point of this conversation is that: when there is a LARGE distance between the pin block and the bottom of the coil, there is more of a necessity to use an impact technique; using a slower pull technique in that situation tends to tilt the pin more before moving it.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2272828 - 05/08/14 01:04 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: A443]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 628
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: A443
The point of this conversation is that: when there is a LARGE distance between the pin block and the bottom of the coil, there is more of a necessity to use an impact technique; using a slower pull technique in that situation tends to tilt the pin more before moving it.


Except when using Levitan's C lever, which completely transformed my negative opinion of non-bushed pins. When the inevitable flagpoling that happens with a trad lever is minimized, as the C lever does, that pin cantilevered flexibility actually can be a help in finding the stable zone.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

Top
#2272883 - 05/08/14 03:36 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 109
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Nobody has really answered my question. What do you do to reduce ear and joint damage, assuming you do not use ear plugs?


I sometimes use the forearm smash, like Stephen Brady, ( with earplugs ), after tuning mf.
I have also a key striker made from a bass hammer.
Touch up what is necessary, play a piece of music to reconcile with the piano and the piano owner smile . ( BTW that is what you profs should do here!!) and then go home, or to the next piano, or something like that wink
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

Top
#2272885 - 05/08/14 03:39 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: jim ialeggio]
A443 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1291
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Except when using Levitan's C lever, which completely transformed my negative opinion of non-bushed pins. When the inevitable flagpoling that happens with a trad lever is minimized, as the C lever does, that pin cantilevered flexibility actually can be a help in finding the stable zone.


I can believe that statement--even without ever having tried the C lever. I should get one to play around with; I can see where there could be some advantages for that kind of hammer, at least in some situations.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler des Erwachens
...expecter of the best, 'gunslinger' to the rest!
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2272889 - 05/08/14 03:47 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
SMHaley Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 628
Loc: Seattle
One thing that also can't be overlooked, and is somewhat getting danced around, is the type and quality of the pinblock (and pins) and how it responds to different sorts of movement based on the feedback being given through the tuning hammer. In my regular piano gig I have two very different animals to keep "concert ready" and they both require a different approach to reach their optimal stability. The Baldwin F, on its second pinblock (a micro-laminate) likes more of a gentle impact approach. No wild jerking, just encouraging nudges. It doesn't like to be fussed with using a cautious slow-pull. Get in, get out, move on.

The Kohler & Campbell SKG600 however, with a wider ply multi-laminate pinblock insists on more of a slow pull, and then you have to fuss with it to get it to settle and stabilize, and even then it likes to wander. It feels kind of spongy and there is no clear rendering of the pin or string. Trying more impact motions and it can't settle and will destabilize in a matter of hours. It just doesn't like it. I feel there are other things in play here, but this is how it responds.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Chrono Trigger piano medley
by Stefo
Today at 04:44 PM
need help with deciding between digital and acoustic
by luvboise713
Today at 04:16 PM
Sight reading problems
by pianosNpreschooler
Today at 03:23 PM
Hello! I have a question about playing for cocktail parties.
by albumblatter
Today at 03:10 PM
Piano Concerto in F, Op. 2 Arensky, Anton
by antony
Today at 02:33 PM
Who's Online
121 registered (accordeur, aesop, anotherscott, Abby Pianoman, 36251, 40 invisible), 1160 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76237 Members
42 Forums
157611 Topics
2315117 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission