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#2272959 - 05/08/14 07:01 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: A454.7]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
With regards to slow pull vs. impact, I'd like to point out that the piano makes a difference.

In the US are are many pianos (e.g., NY Steinway, Baldwin concert grands, and many others) where a slow pull isn't really all that effective. When the contact point of the string is so high up on the tuning pin compared to where the pin leaves the wood, you get a lot of movement in the top of the pin. If one, for example, can easily get 20-50 cents just by moderately moving the top of the pin, a faster impact style of tuning seems to work much better.

On other pianos, without this problem (i.e., where the wire is closer to the wood), a slow pull works great. I think one needs to be able to do both equally well. These are both important techniques to have, depending on how the piano feels and responds.


Hi, I agree that theoretically it is better to have not too much space between coils and the block.

I am unsure it would give me much trouble with slow pulling, as as soon I feel the pin moves I balance the tension between the pin and the wire, so in that case I could lower the bending , as I want the pin to be balanced by the 75 K of tension of the wire .
With the hammer at 15:00 the force used is acting very directly to the string . It may not be that difficult to allow the string to bring the tuning pin straight.

So yes the pin will bow before moving, and yes if it raise too much the pitch it can be a problem .
It may be necessary to really have the hammer at 13:00 to finish the job.



Edited by Olek (05/09/14 07:25 AM)
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#2273140 - 05/09/14 07:19 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1486
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Slow pull can and does work on high pins with much deformation.

Consider a pitch window where we can affect pitch without moving the foot.

The desired pitch must be centered but somewhat toward the bottom of that window, in order to withstand hard blows.

High pins just have a larger window.

The location of each window is determined by the pin angle.

If the desired pitch is too high or too low, the window must be moved.

The only way to do that is to move the foot. You don't even have to play the note, just turn the pin until you feel the foot move.

On some pianos with tight pin blocks, it may be difficult to get the foot to move a small enough amount. That's where impact comes in. It's not about moving the whole string at once. The whole string does not move as a single unit, in my opinion. How else is it possible to affect an impact on a pin, moving the foot, yet having no pitch change, which is possible with long NSL?

Simple physics.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (05/09/14 07:24 AM)
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Mark Cerisano, RPT
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#2273145 - 05/09/14 07:34 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 901
Help me out here. I understand and experience the window of pitch variation where the foot does not move, but I don't understand how the pitch remains stable, once placed in that window. I have assumed that some portion of the NSL segments is storing unequalised tension, or that the pin is experiencing torque that it has not yet released. Is this the wrong way to look at it?

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#2273150 - 05/09/14 08:01 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
All that extra strtch in the pin and wire NSL have to be undone, but not totally, the wire can keep a little more tension.
Then the pin stressed the other way to resist the tension in the NSL.
when set to the max the pin will hardly allow the pitch to lower.

It applies the same tension to the NSL than the NSL applies to the pīn.

Both of those tensions are a little above the one of the speaking length.

Is it clearer?

If bowing/bending the pin befor it moves raise the tension opf the string way too much it can be a hassle, but usually the added tension when raising and bowing the pin helps to put back the pin in place securedly. W
while raising the tuner feel how much torque and stress the pin accepts, and how much stress is necessary to have the wire moving at the bearing point.

Those informations are "recorded" and used when setting the pin.
But then the window of location where the pin is stable is larger than one think, simply the moment where it is all optimum is itself very reduced. (optimum = very firm pin with the bowed posture keeping energy availeable)

Regards





Edited by Olek (05/09/14 08:07 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2273172 - 05/09/14 09:22 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Olek]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 901
Thanks Isaac. Yes, that is more clear.

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#2273420 - 05/09/14 07:41 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Originally Posted By: Toni Goldener
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Nobody has really answered my question. What do you do to reduce ear and joint damage, assuming you do not use ear plugs?


I sometimes use the forearm smash, like Stephen Brady, ( with earplugs ), after tuning mf...

Touch up what is necessary, play a piece of music to reconcile with the piano and the piano owner


Thanks for this Toni!
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#2273519 - 05/10/14 01:02 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: prout]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1486
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: prout
Help me out here. I understand and experience the window of pitch variation where the foot does not move, but I don't understand how the pitch remains stable, once placed in that window. I have assumed that some portion of the NSL segments is storing unequalised tension, or that the pin is experiencing torque that it has not yet released. Is this the wrong way to look at it?


No, I think you've got it.

Basically, within the window, there is a pitch that equates to equalized tension across the bearing points. It is in the lower (higher?) middle so that hard blows don't cause a shift or equalizing, which would change the pitch in the window to one that is more stable.

Isaac showed a good video where he bangs on the hammer, toward him on an upright. The pitch is high enough in the window that the banging doesn't change it. If the pitch drops slightly (which it did in Isaac's video) just move the pin foot slightly to the right (which Isaac did) then wiggle the pin to settle the pitch (which will now be higher than the previous settled pitch) into the window where it will be more stable. Turn the foot too much and the pitch will rise with hard blows.

Hope that's clear.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2273606 - 05/10/14 10:55 AM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I want to add something Toni explained lately : when the NSL an pin have been stressed, releasing the pressure on the lever install yet a firm founation for future settling, the pin sort of jump back, most of the twisting is undone immediately.

depending of the block of course , but basically the foot of the pin is grabbing in its final position, all we have to do is work for the remaining NSL / Pin balance, and make the pin use the friction of its "bed" higher in the hole.

Regards


Edited by Olek (05/10/14 12:30 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2273637 - 05/10/14 12:23 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1486
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Unless there's too much. Then pitch goes sharp.
NSL tension is too high in tension band. Maybe inside static tension band, but outside dynamic friction band.

Or another way to think of it; too high in the pitch window.

Actually this may be a completely different mechanism that must be in harmony with NSL tension/dynamic tension band analysis.

Analysis is a poor term. Sensibility is better.
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Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2273667 - 05/10/14 01:41 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Unless there's too much. Then pitch goes sharp.
NSL tension is too high in tension band. Maybe inside static tension band, but outside dynamic friction band.

Or another way to think of it; too high in the pitch window.



That is how some pianos with too much friction can be tuned, by allowing large tension in the NSL, and playing strong enough to have the tension pass the bearing to the string.

Some 1990 Schimmel grands comes to mind, nothing make the speaking length move, impact or slow pulling or even giggling/waving.

Anyway in the basic tuning technique, (Yamaha instruction) the NSL is stressed, an the playing hand is the one that really "tunes" the string, by playing repeatedly until control is taken over the speaking length .
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2273713 - 05/10/14 03:43 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: A454.7]
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: A443
With regards to slow pull vs. impact, I'd like to point out that the piano makes a difference.

In the US are are many pianos (e.g., NY Steinway, Baldwin concert grands, and many others) where a slow pull isn't really all that effective. When the contact point of the string is so high up on the tuning pin compared to where the pin leaves the wood, you get a lot of movement in the top of the pin. If one, for example, can easily get 20-50 cents just by moderately moving the top of the pin, a faster impact style of tuning seems to work much better.

On other pianos, without this problem (i.e., where the wire is closer to the wood), a slow pull works great. I think one needs to be able to do both equally well. These are both important techniques to have, depending on how the piano feels and responds.


Agree - and related to the scale design. The Grotrian 192 for instance has a lot of wire between the pin and the first bearing point on the plate (two octaves starting middle C and up) and a slow pull will put a lot of tension in the non-speaking length. Multiple fast blows when letting the pitch down to target is key to success for these. My Ibach is not at all the same.

Of course the larger diameter strings that are below middle C don't stretch as much at all between the pin and the first bearing point.
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

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#2273714 - 05/10/14 03:47 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1486
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Too much playing = hearing loss. This is the point of my post.

How one can get stability without playing hard or excessively, and without having to use ear plugs.

Granted, I suppose there are some pianos where hard playing is required. But it can be done without, on most.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2273719 - 05/10/14 04:14 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT

How one can get stability without playing hard or excessively, and without having to use ear plugs.


Simple: insist piano manufacturers make better pianos. We should NOT have to bang in the descant to ensure stability.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2273780 - 05/10/14 08:31 PM Re: Soft blow technique. [Re: A454.7]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1486
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT

How one can get stability without playing hard or excessively, and without having to use ear plugs.


Simple: insist piano manufacturers make better pianos. We should NOT have to bang in the descant to ensure stability.


Thankfully, they are the minority.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (05/10/14 08:32 PM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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