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#2271689 - 05/06/14 01:30 AM False strings
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
The Kawai KG 1C grand that I have repinned and restrung has a couple of strings beating on it at D#3, the last note on the tenor bridge before the tenor/bass cross over.

Two out of the 3 string unison are beating quite prominently at slightly different rates, the slowest at about 2bps. The 3rd string of the unison sounds good/clean.

It is impossible to tune the D#3 so that it sounds decent.

Your help would be much appreciated.

Thank you.
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Mark Davis
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#2271798 - 05/06/14 09:56 AM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Tim Sullivan Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 91
Loc: Muskoka, Ontario
I've seen loose bridge pins on a few of these pianos. You can check by holding a screwdriver blade on the speaking side pin. You'll need someone to assist. If the beating stops, then I'd suspect they're loose.

Tim
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#2271814 - 05/06/14 10:39 AM Re: False strings [Re: Tim Sullivan]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Tim Sullivan
I've seen loose bridge pins on a few of these pianos. You can check by holding a screwdriver blade on the speaking side pin. You'll need someone to assist. If the beating stops, then I'd suspect they're loose.

Tim


not suspicion at that point wink CA help there, apparently.

false beats can be the result of a long backscale somewhere also, but if only on 2 strings of an unison, I would change them.
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#2271907 - 05/06/14 02:40 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Thank you Tim for the tip. I will try it out.

Best regards,
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Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2271928 - 05/06/14 03:17 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
A454.7 Offline
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Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
I've never witnessed loose bridge pins causing causing false beats. The theory seems sound, but I've never experienced it. If the screwdriver, or properly positioned vice grips, don't solve the problem, I would deduce the problem is a twist in the wire (ie the way in which you installed it). I would absolutely replace the wire.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
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Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2271952 - 05/06/14 03:57 PM Re: False strings [Re: A454.7]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Originally Posted By: A443
I've never witnessed loose bridge pins causing causing false beats. The theory seems sound, but I've never experienced it. If the screwdriver, or properly positioned vice grips, don't solve the problem, I would deduce the problem is a twist in the wire (ie the way in which you installed it). I would absolutely replace the wire.


Hello A443

How often do you come across loose bridge pins?

What are the results/consequences of loose bridge pins?

What do you do to rectify the problem of loose bridge pins?

Thank you.
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Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2271971 - 05/06/14 04:29 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
That's just it: I don't often come across loose bridge pins, and when I do, it also doesn't necessarily result in a false beat.

IF the bridge pin is the problem, then carefully setup some vice grips on the pins, and see if the problem goes away completely. ONLY then, would I assume it has something to do with the bridge pin. Otherwise, the problem is elsewhere (i.e., the string).

Resolving a loose bridge pin issue is a compromise, no matter what you do. I tend to want to repair the size of the hole by plugging it and re-drilling it...but this is complicated and time-consuming to do it well. The other thing to do is put a bigger bridge pin in. I tend to shy away from CA glues and the like. Maybe it is ok for a cheap piano that is already dead and gone, but otherwise, I don't know what the long term effects are--so I remain conservative on the issue.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
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Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2271974 - 05/06/14 04:33 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
something can quieten false beats it is to straighten the string just out of the bridge pin. o not know why but it help.

plugging in such small place is probably not efficient.

CA seem to fix somewhat the pin, an probably does not cause trouble if thicker ones are use later.

On a cheap piano, epoxy can reinforce correctly the wood (impregnation, then adding a thicker one) easily make a mess at the surface, the good quality must be used.






Edited by Olek (05/06/14 04:37 PM)
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#2271981 - 05/06/14 04:54 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
I do think that one of the affects of loose bridge pins is false beats, though I am aware that some folks, like yourself A443, do not think so.

Until proven otherwise, I will hold to this opinion.

Thank you.
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#2271991 - 05/06/14 05:25 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
A454.7 Offline
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Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Well, please take the time to observe, think, and prove yourself otherwise (i.e., instead of simply holding on to a belief that you've pickup somewhere).

I am proving you otherwise right now, but because you haven't taken the time to make your own observations, you don't really get what is going on--it's not up to other people to prove anything to you; you have to do the observations yourself.

If you stabilise the so called false-beats-causing bridge pins with a pair of vice grips, a screwdriver, or what ever your brain can come up with, and there is still is false beat, what does that tell you?!? How could the bridge pin, when it is being temporarily stabilised, still cause a false beat problem? If you can come up with a possibility, then eliminate that too, until your false beat goes away. If it never does, the problem might just be with your way of thinking.


Edited by A443 (05/06/14 10:11 PM)
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2271999 - 05/06/14 05:46 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Yes, ok, A443, I will look into things better.


Edited by Mark Davis (05/06/14 07:01 PM)
Edit Reason: removed the unecessary
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#2272007 - 05/06/14 06:08 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Thank you Tim for the tip. I will try it out.

Best regards,


Also, I did say I would try it out, so your accusation of me not willing to investigate or look into the matter is false. A lot of what I know and do is from investigation, trial and error.



Edited by Mark Davis (05/06/14 07:02 PM)
Edit Reason: removed the unecessary
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#2272024 - 05/06/14 06:38 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Since you say you will take the time to investigate sometime in the future, you might as well take a few notes that are perfectly straight (i.e., with no false beats) and temporarily replace those bridge pins with smaller ones (i.e., ones that are going to be loose). If you really want to know how to fix false beats, you need to also know how to cause them.


Edited by A443 (05/06/14 10:07 PM)
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2272030 - 05/06/14 07:11 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Originally Posted By: A443
I've never witnessed loose bridge pins causing causing false beats. The theory seems sound, but I've never experienced it. If the screwdriver, or properly positioned vice grips, don't solve the problem, I would deduce the problem is a twist in the wire (ie the way in which you installed it). I would absolutely replace the wire.


I have just re read your earlier post A443.

My apologies, I have misread and misinterpreted.

Please accept my sincere apologies for the run around.

On re reading your earlier post, I think that I will look and see if the wire is twisted, after trying the screw driver trick on the bridge pins.

Thank you for your posts and time.

Best regards,


Edited by Mark Davis (05/07/14 05:48 AM)
Edit Reason: corrected a mistake
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#2272072 - 05/06/14 09:36 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 731
Loc: shirley, MA
Before nailing this on a false beat, you could be dealing with a wayward longitudinal mode?

Mute 2 strings leaving one of the beating strings. Note the speed of the self-beating. Change the pitch of the string and note the speed of the beats. If the beat speed does not change at different frequencies, the mess is caused by a longitinal mode, which can only be changed by changing the speaking length.

Jim Ialeggio
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www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
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#2272076 - 05/06/14 10:10 PM Re: False strings [Re: jim ialeggio]
prout Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 850
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Before nailing this on a false beat, you could be dealing with a wayward longitudinal mode?

Mute 2 strings leaving one of the beating strings. Note the speed of the self-beating. Change the pitch of the string and note the speed of the beats. If the beat speed does not change at different frequencies, the mess is caused by a longitinal mode, which can only be changed by changing the speaking length.

Jim Ialeggio


Are you sure about that? I thought longitudinal modes were an order of magnitude higher than the first partial. Mark said the false beats were about 2 bps. D#3 ( appox. 155.5 Hz ) would have a longitudinal mode of over 1500 Hz and would have to beat with a very strong 10th partial to hear the beats.

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#2272088 - 05/06/14 10:32 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 731
Loc: shirley, MA
Don't know...maybe I'm showing my ignorance on this subject...but to tell you the truth, I can't say I ever have dealt with false beats down there. Noisy strings, yes, but I don't think they were self-beating.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2272123 - 05/07/14 12:03 AM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 829
Loc: Seattle
I would imagine these are plain wire? With most false beating after restringing one should check both termination points. If this goes through an agraffe did you ream it out slightly? Old string impressions can change or interfere with the front termination and speaking length.
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#2272157 - 05/07/14 01:56 AM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Thank you Jim and SM Haley.

Thank you to all for your thoughts on the matter.

I am going to look into it.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2272275 - 05/07/14 08:44 AM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I may not have much to add, Mark.

False beats are almost unheard of wink on plain wire strings that low. My only thought is really poor hammer pining and mating. That can make things go bad. Like the hammer hitting one string obliquely first, then scuffing into another or something.

Not everything is solvable...
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Part-Time Tuner
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#2272283 - 05/07/14 09:19 AM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Thanks Jeff

I agree that false beats are almost unheard of on plain wire strings that low.

I have plucked these strings and the false beats are still there.

I think it may be that the string is twisted as A443 has said, but I will look into it.

Thank you for your post.
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Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2272403 - 05/07/14 02:33 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 327
Loc: Europe
There are two common reasons for false beats. Make sure the steel is clean. You can clean the steel with pads like Scotch or use clean benzin. Then tab down the strings on the bridge or stretch the strings with a piece of wood near the bridge to get them down.

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#2272439 - 05/07/14 04:05 PM Re: False strings [Re: pianolive]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 829
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: pianolive
There are two common reasons for false beats. Make sure the steel is clean. You can clean the steel with pads like Scotch or use clean benzin. Then tab down the strings on the bridge or stretch the strings with a piece of wood near the bridge to get them down.


Pianolive, you may wish to read the OP and following comments a bit more carefully - we're not talking about old strings with rust and doing little Reblitz tricks. This is about new wire and false beats in an uncommon place. One who is putting on new wire should have already seated at the hitch pin and bridge, and the termination points (as I mentioned) inspected and dealt with accordingly before stringing. Brass is usually preferable to wood or other metals for manipulating the wire or seating it.
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#2272464 - 05/07/14 04:57 PM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
I'm interested in learning how this all turns out [lol...no pun intended]. I have to concur that such extreme false beats occurring that low in the scale is a unique situation indeed. Good luck. :-)


Edited by A443 (05/07/14 05:29 PM)
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2272475 - 05/07/14 05:23 PM Re: False strings [Re: SMHaley]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
Originally Posted By: pianolive
There are two common reasons for false beats. Make sure the steel is clean. You can clean the steel with pads like Scotch or use clean benzin. Then tab down the strings on the bridge or stretch the strings with a piece of wood near the bridge to get them down.


Pianolive, you may wish to read the OP and following comments a bit more carefully - we're not talking about old strings with rust and doing little Reblitz tricks. This is about new wire and false beats in an uncommon place. One who is putting on new wire should have already seated at the hitch pin and bridge, and the termination points (as I mentioned) inspected and dealt with accordingly before stringing. Brass is usually preferable to wood or other metals for manipulating the wire or seating it.


New strings can have such beats if not well manipulated once installed - (the terminations, for example are tobe done after stringing - not only before)

It will be very interesting to see if those 2 strings (the same wire I suppose) are twisted, or if they have been massaged too strong (high heat created by rubbing too strong can probably create a loss of tempering, while I was told to rub relatively strong so the strings are warm at touch when done)


Edited by Olek (05/08/14 07:49 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2272631 - 05/08/14 04:42 AM Re: False strings [Re: A454.7]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Originally Posted By: A443
I'm interested in learning how this all turns out [lol...no pun intended]. I have to concur that such extreme false beats occurring that low in the scale is a unique situation indeed. Good luck. :-)


I will let you know how it turns out (pun intended).

Thank you.

Regards,
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Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2272673 - 05/08/14 07:50 AM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I had once "false beats" in low regions, they turned out to come from back-scale (another note)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2272863 - 05/08/14 02:27 PM Re: False strings [Re: SMHaley]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 327
Loc: Europe
Smhaley,
What I described in my post is just what I learned at Steinway regarding concert service.
Those pianos are not older than three to five years as they are on leasing contracts.
Btw, who is Reblitz?

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#2272876 - 05/08/14 03:23 PM Re: False strings [Re: pianolive]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 829
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: pianolive
Smhaley,
What I described in my post is just what I learned at Steinway regarding concert service.
Those pianos are not older than three to five years as they are on leasing contracts.
Btw, who is Reblitz?


Pianolive are these NY or Hamburg instruments you generally refer to that need this sort of work? I'm surprised that such new instruments would be coming off the floor needing such attention as scrubbing the strings and reseating at the bridge. I mean we all hear tales of woe of the varying degrees of prep leaving the NY factory, but seriously, having to scrub essentially new wire?

Reblitz, a basic introduction to piano technology.
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#2292526 - 06/20/14 11:43 AM Re: False strings [Re: Mark Davis]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
I changed the strings today, and now there is no more falseness. Clean and good sounding.

Thank you A443.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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