Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Tuning stability

@A443(,5)

Hello

I have a few hypothesis

the tone is related to the phase angle and I was said that above a certain force input, the unison turn to an horizontal plane.

I cannot relate that well to the "hidden tone" you can attain while playing hard when tuning.

I think that if the goal is to tune/regulate that FFF tone that "hides" (different behavior than less strong nuances, different spectra,just under saturation), doing so once or twice is enough for the piano, and then it can be tuned quietly.

I wonder if, with our phase opposition and game between the 3 strings we are not sometime installing a "regulated fight" between phases orientation, hence a certain management of transient until one mode take the precedence on the other.

As I said, large concert pianos have some mass in the strings that mass may help the string to render but I think the best mean to have the piano installed in a stable natural posture is to tune with a large spread of energy, with sustain pedal, or using a goodie as seen in Pianomania that send a lot of energy in a short time.

If the bridge is allowed to vibrate a lot it certainly may help the string to render and install themselves in an energy path that correspond to the natural frequencies of the piano (hence the very brillant tone obtained when tuning with sustain pedal engaged)

Still think that the piano do not need to be "beaten into submission" because he want to go a certain way and will help once showed it (unless you dont know the town and gives him bad directions

Best regards

So did you have some sort of "pain gauge" hooked up to all these people? Of course not! You need to be careful about "projecting" your feelings onto others.

the pain of pianist can be heard, it can turn to playing the wrong note, sometime.
Or to play in a purely technical way for lack of control on the tone

Very disturbing.

Then a conveniently build unison if drift a hair stay somewhat usable and can be hidden with a push on the sustain pedal.

Or maybe they could borrow Jeff's dog and make him bark at those notes, so no-one will hear.

Kees

Hi Olek, yes, indeed I don't do any actual "tuning" with loud blows. Loud blows are a technical device to ensure a pianist won't knock the strings out later. I listen softly/moderately, and utilize hard blows within my technique to ensure stability. It's really only the capo section that needs to be rendered. The better the piano's construction, the less this is necessary...in my experience.

Did you notice that have to be done at some point then there is some sort of foundation installed in the piano you find present at each new tuning(do not need to rebuild everything from scratch unless a pitch change is the job)

I mean also, playing, hard blows for tuning you can tune the FFF nuances but when returning to moderate playing there is some moaning present.

I understand the idea of having something driven out of the piano at some point, with adequate energy. But tuning with too strong blows is a dangerous habit, that may come from tuning on non well voiced instruments may be.

as I said in difficult cases I mix hard/soft blows 2 in a range. that is, if I am not confident with the way I took the control on the wire.

regards

Yes I agree: once the foundation is there, I don't usually find the need to bang on the piano--at all. But, it's an easy thing to check. I bang on a note, and if it doesn't move, then I don't need to do it on subsequent notes. Once the foundation is laid, as you suggest, there is no need to construct a new foundation unless the overall pitch level needs to be changed.

Banging, for me, is not a habit: it is a deliberate and thoughtful attempt to get the string to stop moving before I'm done tuning. Banging is not natural, and can be harmful if the technician is not trained properly to use it when necessary. I ask technicians that studying with me to constantly monitor their tuning stability progress with their ETD--they need to think about drifts/movements in the settling process and anticipate movement to prevent excess motion at the pin. If one stays a few steps ahead of the piano, then stability is easier attained.

BTW, I do basic voicing before the tuning--the tuning process begins to stabilize the voicing. Tuning is not the only thing that needs stabilization. ;-)

Correction: I do tune louder when I am focusing on the sound of the attack. And specifically if I have to do a 0,0,0 kind of unison. But here, I also revert to extremely short sounds to hear what is going on as well. ;-)

Attack is important, but I have always naturally focused more on what happens after that initial sound. Earplugs are great for mentally learning how to listen to the attack. For those that don't know, the molded musician ear plugs are really comfortable--in fact I use them throughout the day to tone down what is going on around me (ie it works on people too). If one naturally tunes with the decay, then earplugs help make the mental transition to being able to focus on the attack--with or without earplugs.

I tuned for a command performance by Felix Legrand. Have you ever seen the size of that guy. He's a monster. Even at 80 years old, he pounded the keys. That poor baby grand Steinway never was rocked like that before.

Understandably, I watched from the audience, ready to cringe, especially when he went to the treble.

I was proud to hear the unisons stayed clean, even the treble. Even after four encores!

I totally agree , but are you sure you tune strong for attack .

If I tune strong the tone final have less partials, and if I have trouble to hear the attack (as in bichords) playing very short light rebounds help me to hear it, as for most notes in fact. (possibly when I use a double stroke the first get me on attack then the next is for finer listening, but I am unsure)

Then I could tune first the attack moment (with the way the finger play, decide at which moment the tone may begin to be tuned, more on hammer side, more on key side, simultaneous,) and once basis for attack is tuned then I work on the spectra , partials , fundamental, coupling.

Or, no special attention to attack because it is too strong or too impure, cleaning the decay, and at some point the attack thickens. Then I would eventually correct it.

In any case there is an absolute eveness of energy balance between the one parsed in the first moments and the one used to project tone, and that is to be similar from note to note.

It happens easily that the attack is almost absent, and the tone is immediate, not thickened, it can be very clear and clean but with some lack of energy under the finger, that gives the impression the projection is limited.
lack of "bite" if you see what I mean.

Pianists notice that as something missing, without really knowing how to state that.

I think that one point that is easy to miss (and even more with ETD's) is the listening at moment the key bottoms.

it is not difficult : what is perceived within the fingers/hand triggers the ear. If we loose the connexion between the playing hand and listening, tuning relies on something the pianist does not experiment under his finger. That is the main problem of ETD tuning, the machine is always late of the ear.



I wrote a mail to the IRCAM so may be a student can use the theme for research , try to understand what moment of tone we work on looking at waves in slow motion, and recording the resulting phase orientations. If we use 3 known "shapes of unison" then correlations are probably possible.

non voiced hammers create lot of trouble to the tuner, also,making noises, emphasis on string mating problems or all unevenesses of tone between strings.

They provide you a too much saturated attack that is very difficult to make efficient, so there is a loss of tone quality, when tuned to the best the tone is way too clear and acid.

I have no trouble with very bright pianos but that should be made manageable for the pianist, not possible in absence of voicing.

Good morning, Isaac. I do not. There is nothing "auto" about bending an instrument to the tuner's will.

well let's say about equilibrium then, as installing a car on 4 eggs.

why not believe certain physical processes at work do not allow the strings to stay coupled more easily ?

On any piano, the long term stability is something the tuner perceive, it is there or no, and we can work from there or be obliged to install it.

That is what I mean. As A443 to agree that once "beaten into submission" something have happened to the piano, I would say that even if changing the pitch (to the higher) that is and stay in place.

If one part of the tuning begin to slip, soon all the construction can be in pile.

To me the natural consonance of the piano keep it in tune, possibly simply because it allows a more efficient parsing of energy within the instrument.

Regards.

Happy coffee !

I think Isaac is using the term "auto alimentation" to mean "self reinforcing" (literally, 'self feeding').

Thanks, Isaac. Your car/egg analogy is lost on me. That's okay. The coffee was good.

Bob,

The eggs because of their shape are highly resistant if placed vertically, tuning is installing some equilibrium on an apparently fragile portion of tone.

Then it reinforce and seem as "want to stay there" more.

I always want the instrument to "tell me" where it want to be. that may even bypass theoretical testing.

I am also often thinking that the job I have done is there "forever" , I know it is not the reality, but a part of it is.
It relates to energy and how efficiently if flows within the instrument.

Now me too coffe !

regards

Yes certainly - thanks. There are different levels thru unison, stretch, used ratios for intervals. It does not really relates to temperament, or may be, because the piano have such a large range of possibes, as long the consonance is within the bandwidth of acceptability for the piano and listener, it can also be "auto feeding" .

BUt the more intervals can be included in the tempering system, the stronger that long term stability can be. I think from experience.

Regards