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#2270035 - 05/02/14 07:24 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: A443]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie

What a stupid question! Real tuners don't need PCs cool


Real tuners need to be able to hear. Is there anyone that seriously thinks that after 2-3 hours of heavy banging for a high level tuning, a technician is able to hear subtleties in a tuning? That is non-sense: either mentally or physically, the ears fatigue.

I use earplugs, an ETD, and bang the piano into submission until it surrenders. And only then, with fresh ears, do I take out my earplugs and make subtle adjustments until the tuning is truly something very special. Tuning for stability without an ETD is unhealthy and dangerous.


Well, I dunno . . . I've tuned 18 pianos in one day (didn't do any the next). That may be excessive and I wouldn't vouch for the quality of the last one or two beyond being adequate. But, 4,5,6 per day? Doesn't wear out my ears.

In my awareness the whole "ear fatigue" concept is not well supported from a scientific/biological standpoint. Eardrums continue to vibrate in response to the surrounding air and nerves continue to fire. It makes about as much sense to me as saying your eyes wear out after a few hours.

Of course, common sense must prevail. Ear plugs are a good thing and it would be a bad idea to try tuning a piano after running a planer or being by a jet engine without hearing protection. But in my experience in the broad spectrum of "normal" ear usage, fatigue is a non-issue.
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#2270052 - 05/02/14 08:04 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Beemer]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 863
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: Beemer
Are all the partials not sounding with equal relative volume regardless of felt condition?


Beemer, the softer the hammers are, the longer the hammers will stay in contact with the strings. In the melodic section, for example, the frequencies are so fast that the hammer is ALSO acting as a damper: longer contact times dampen more of the higher partials, thus changing the overall spectrum and volume output.
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#2270068 - 05/02/14 08:30 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: kpembrook]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 863
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
It makes about as much sense to me as saying your eyes wear out after a few hours.


LOL...that happens TOO! Ever been to Tokyo?!? After a few hours of exposure to so many crazy lights, I always feel like I am moments away from dropping into a light induced seizure!

In all seriousness, exposure to sound detail and/or many new sights will cause fatigue. Whether this is mental or physiological doesn't really matter that much to me--people experience/suffer from it all the time.
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Klavierbaukünstler

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#2270070 - 05/02/14 08:33 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 863
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
...and, BTW, 18 pianos in one day is crazy; perhaps it is time for an assistant! ;-)
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Klavierbaukünstler

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#2270084 - 05/02/14 09:10 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7222
Loc: France
A443, do you beat the piano because it is faster ?

I wasdoing so more or less BUT The stronger the piano is played at tuning moment the less the high range partials are present

Indeed playing firmy is interesting. But I tend to replace with more often playing that provide enough energy.

I do not experiment any lowering then.

I find it very difficult to go from a high compromis tuning (ET obtained by computation) and a more sensitive tuning. The ETD install the tuning iin straight rails not leaving much leeway up or down.
In the end I can hear it as "" too perfect" because intervals are tempered too much (all) without a preference given to a more sparkling resonance but a smooth compromize all along.

It change slightly the way you listen in the end in my opinion.

It is for the better when you come from an approximative tuning but then to get back to some humanity, I believe other means can be used.

Pianist say things as "never was tuned so good" when a good tuner with VT ETD tune their piano . But that is so much evened that it sound a little like a perfect architecture, the brillancy seem to be the same everywhere so some adperities may be welcome.

Not to say it is lifeless but the tuning scheme layed on the piano is too much perceived (opposed to ttuning with the help of yhe instrument natural consonances.).

A huge security however with concert work indeed.

But for some reason the ETD is always late of the ear and force you to slox down and listen late in the tone.

Btw you did not mention +0+ in your lidt of unison.
A few tests I made showed me that it takes less than 30 seconds of play to a perfect 000 to switch to that shape naturally. (At a lesser level than if installed purposedly, but plucked strings show that clearly as may do an ETD if you try.

Ever experiment that way ?

Regards
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#2270100 - 05/02/14 09:54 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8412
Loc: Georgia, USA
Well, I still don't know exactly what kind of small pocket PC to get for my tuning program... my lap top is fine, but just big and bulky.

As far as my Yamaha C7 that Sally Phillips tuned for me over a year ago, the tuning is still fantastic and holding up well, even with my oldies rock-n-roll style pounding! All I've had to do is clean up a few wayward unisons on a few notes due to some temperature/humidity drifting.

Sally really knows her stuff, and she gave me a few lessons on setting the tuning pin and doing some action regulation. After she finished tuning my piano I played a little Jerry Lee Lewis style boogie-woogie and she said she has tuned for Jerry Lee Lewis before... as well as Jimmy Swaggart and Stevie Wonder and other big-name artist and music celebrities. I told Sally she made me feel like a celebrity! smile

My hat is off to you pros (particularly Sally Phillips) who really know what you are doing!

Now, what was that about a stupid DIYer question? smile

Rick
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#2270105 - 05/02/14 10:06 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Rickster]
BenP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/12
Posts: 163
Loc: South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Well, I still don't know exactly what kind of small pocket PC to get for my tuning program... my lap top is fine, but just big and bulky.


I don't know what tuning program you're using, but I use Tunelab on a 10" Android tablet. Works great, and the tablet has 8-10 hours of battery life. You could use a smaller tablet too, which are pretty cheap these days. It doesn't need to be anything fancy, particularly if you're only using it for the tuning program.
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Part-time Piano Tech
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#2270106 - 05/02/14 10:06 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: S. Phillips]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7222
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: S. Phillips
Since I'm the one who tuned Rick's piano, I feel I can jump in here and say a couple of things. I tuned aurally for 35 years before I got the ETD. Even when I'm using an ETD I still do aural tests with every note. I look at the ETD in a completely different way than a tuner who is trying to use one without the aural training.

I think the ETD in the hands of an experienced tuner is just a tool not the defining factor. I deviate from the ETD in my opinion frequently. So why use it? I tell people it's like a GPS. It tells you which direction to go but not what to do when you get there.

Tuning stability is 90 percent of good tuning and an ETD does not teach or coach that unless you count watching your unison fade quickly as you take your hammer off the pin if you haven't achieved stability. Stability allows you to build a tuning from the temperament section into the other sections of the piano.

BUT I tell students that when they start tuning that they won't hear what they need to hear until they have been tuning for 4-5 years. You just don't have a feel or sound in your ear as a goal until you have done this a lot. That explains the situation where novice tuners think their tuning sounds fine. It may sound fine to them but I can guarantee that their work would not stand up to the pounding by concert pianists or be acceptable to recording engineers or God forbid a concert violinist.

As for the time of day, I actually prefer to tune as early in the morning as possible and I don't listen to the music or the radio on the way to the hall. Of course this has nothing to do with the actual piano but more about my starting the day with my ears being a blank slate.

Just in case you didn't see my article in Piano Buyer, here is a sample of my tuning and voicing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeIEvCh5di8





Very good post, thanks for the link

I have to listen on better equipment , but the tonal difference between the 2 different pianos is very well perceived.

The NY model is brassy and immediately powerful as all impregnated hammers.Not sure the attack can be managed as much as with more "standard hammers" but I like the output, certainly not for any kind of music.

Dont you feel that using an ETD while making the usual aural tests (is less easy if the ETD recognize notes) is like walking on a tight rope but with a barrier left and right,perfectly secure.
But is not it making your tuning more neutral ?

Regards
_________________________
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#2270116 - 05/02/14 10:21 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 688
Loc: England
Banging a piano into submission in the cause of stability is typical of an inexperienced tuner in my opinion. There is absolutely no need for this brutality if one is able to set a wrestpin, and much kinder to the poor customer that has to listen while the tuning is being done.
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Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2270127 - 05/02/14 10:53 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Johnkie]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 863
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Banging a piano into submission in the cause of stability is typical of an inexperienced tuner in my opinion. There is absolutely no need for this brutality if one is able to set a wrest pin [...].


I couldn't disagree with you more!

For starters: what inexperienced technician naturally bangs on a piano like that?!? LOL...that was a ridiculous statement: no inexperienced technicians do that naturally! Every student I have ever worked with has had to be taught when and how much to bang to ensure stability--if you don't bang, and the pianist does, well...then, you are probably used to unisons slipping in a concert. At the very least, banging is insurance!

Besides, there are two issues at work: 1) setting the tuning pin, and 2) rendering the string segments to ensure they are equalised, and thus, remain stable with playing (i.e., playing the piano should not make it go out of tune; it often does, because the inexperienced technician doesn't take the time to render the string segments). But this all also depends on the design of the piano, and how much the tuning has moved, etc. However, once the tuning is there, and nothing renders down/up anymore, then there is no further reason to bang. Everything is relative...
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#2270146 - 05/02/14 11:39 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7222
Loc: France
I use to bang but really much more than necessary, if I want to lower a string while making an extended temperament on center string, and my pin is set and well "loaded".

Even in that case, often I cannot have the string lowering even 0.2 ct, it just does not move, because of the strong springy balance at the pin.

What kind of tuning pin motion /stabilization technique do you use ?
I agree totally that if I would tune for an strong pianist, I would check my tuning with firm blows , just as an insurance.
But really nothing is supposed to move, because the tuning pin stress actually absorb the whip effect coming from the string, the pin bow a little and pull back everything in place.

when the tip is inserted on the pin, I am under the impression I cannot turn it any way up or down, and that the pin is very firm, not supple bu firm as some bend steel piece, that contains energy.

Whenever something have to move it comes from segments of wire after the bridge. I hope my numerous light blows when tuning give me control on that too (but anyway I thing=k we cannot really manage that, a part of the tension goes back the bridge, but the rest may tilt it a little, if the piano is raised much.

Allowing the piano to spread a lot of energy (sustain pedal) may assure that the string will not move more.

All the upper parts of wire and pin are under absolute control by the tuning lever.
I think that ETD are more or less lowering the amount of sensations you have, as you need to focus on visual plus the rest.I generally focus only on perceptions, and leave the ear at work in automatic mode (mostly focusing on amounts of consonances). That is very quiet in the end.
Ifind advantages in earplugs with pianos that have a short tone, to be played strong enough so the moment where the tone behaviour change in FFF playing is attained and tuned.

I do not find it necessary on good pianos.

Regards

BTW the listening mode that recognize the energy spread in octaves, (for instance) allows to tune the ideal octaves from A3 to A7 without entering in beat comparison mode. Straight octaves can be so precise then (when checks are done, they are right most often, so I almost stopped using them. But the octaves are really worked as unison then with all the listening to phase effects, to the power amount, the "straightness and firmness of the final result.
Changing the power of the played octave allow to build a more or less "energetic " octave then, (an octave can even saturate to itself too easily if too straight)




Edited by Olek (05/02/14 12:36 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2270151 - 05/02/14 11:47 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1065
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Good topic for another thread: Good understanding of stability + soft blows = no ear plugs, fresh ears always, faster tunings, good stability, and no finger, hand, wrist, arm, shoulder, neck, ear pain.

This is how I tune. Six tunings a day does not tire me out, I could and have done more. No hearing loss in 15 years of full time tuning.

I use test blows on one or two notes to check my hammer technique, IF the piano is giving me trouble. Most of the time I don't use test blows. I passed the RPT exam without any test blows. It can be done. The secret is understanding friction and elastic deformation in the tuning pin / non speaking length system, as Isaac alluded to.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (05/02/14 11:50 AM)
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Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2270152 - 05/02/14 11:50 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 863
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Hi olek, I didn't put (+,0,+) because I hadn't ever considered that option! But, you are right: that is absolutely another option--especially when one considers the left string and the right pedal.

Re: ETDs and sounding too perfect/lifeless
Yes...I know exactly what you are talking about. If I'm really going all out, and want more resonance (ie humanity), I tend to readjust the octaves (and 12th) and decide on the unisons to even out the temperament. From there, I reset the Verituner for each note so that the other technicians that I work with (ie the ones that typically do all the heavy banging and rendering before I start my work) can do the same thing every-time. As you know, most concert technicians don't care about these details...it probably deserves a separate thread if you want to talk more. Or, maybe I'll fly through CDG next time so we can just chat in person. :-D
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Klavierbaukünstler

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#2270159 - 05/02/14 12:09 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: A443]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7222
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
Hi olek, I didn't put (+,0,+) because I hadn't ever considered that option! But, you are right: that is absolutely another option--especially when one considers the left string and the right pedal.

Re: ETDs and sounding too perfect/lifeless
Yes...I know exactly what you are talking about. If I'm really going all out, and want more resonance (ie humanity), I tend to readjust the octaves (and 12th) and decide on the unisons to even out the temperament. From there, I reset the Verituner for each note so that the other technicians that I work with (ie the ones that typically do all the heavy banging and rendering before I start my work) can do the same thing every-time. As you know, most concert technicians don't care about these details...it probably deserves a separate thread if you want to talk more. Or, maybe I'll fly through CDG next time so we can just chat in person. :-D


Thank you and thank you for the offer, ! absolutely (or I'll fly to Vienna !)

DO you have the time for some plucking tests with the ETD, muting other strings or no (unmuted strings change the pitch of the one plucked)?

From 000, I noticed that if the note is played for sometime less than 30 seconds, it automatically stabilize in that +0+ shape (could be -0- probably but it does not seem to happen naturally.

That sound logical to me that the strings HAVE to find their better balance and equilibrium and that it the external ones are well in phase the center one just will make a small step apart so anyone is happy sooner.

Now most strip 'muters' install that without thinking of it if they work the unison in 2 parts. If the unison is tuned 3 strings , now other options appears.

BTW I was surprised by the amount of possibilities with the basic -0+ that may tend to 00+ or the opposite, but yet while in the exercise of doing -0+ the management of the attack and after sound ratio is larger than I though, and the sound "bowl" (that deformed bowl that follows the initial decay , can be made more or less sparkling (contains more or less active partials)

A very interesting way to shape the tone, but it is a bit dangerous as we focus on such fine lietening mode that it can make us loose contact with the global tone once hear a little farther (particularly the "eraser effect "part of the -0+ I find dangerous. A dull unison can be obtained that way as well.

Regards




Edited by Olek (05/02/14 12:27 PM)
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#2270167 - 05/02/14 12:24 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: A443]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7222
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
If I'm really going all out, and want more resonance (ie humanity), I tend to readjust the octaves (and 12th) and decide on the unison to even out the temperament. :-D


Yep, the strongest resonance provided by the instrument is located there (more between 12-15 in my ear, than 8-12.

I appreciate that you understand what I mean, I herad some very well tuned instruments where the tuning system used was too present and perceived (by a tuner). Then the piano is really "forced in playing in tune" by that (acoustical or logical) construction, but its basis is very present. This is the case with tunings that push the compromising in slow beating intervals sometime. Or even with much enlarged tunings based on "pure 5 ths" (or pure something, for what is worth)

This is also the case with the "perfect ET tuning" we can produce today. That is absolutely neutral and so much balanced, the personality of the piano have to be strong.

Now all may depend of the instrument, some will not accept much "grease" from low beating intervals to be apparent, and they will sound nasal then.

Also the strength of the consonance is near the ET if the piano iH allows for that.if caught in the iH the tone can be much present and rich, but justness too much "expanded" to be easily used by singers for instance.

I guess our brains are much used to ET, and then if a certain consonance is used the intonation/justness is easy for others.
But a certain tension effect begins to be apparent harmonically and melodically speaking.
SO yes each new note tuned is a compromise, and add the tuner's ear natural flaws as a part of the final result. (I believe that with age tuners tend to have a more brilliant/clear tone as they want to hear the partials more, and they also reduce the size of octave as they are bored with the "artificial stretch" (something that begin in the "temperament octave" often).
Those 2 options together may well balance themselves so the end result is also good.


Edited by Olek (05/02/14 12:48 PM)
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2270179 - 05/02/14 12:38 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8412
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: olek
SO yes each new note tuned is a compromise, and add the tuner's ear natural flaws as a part of the final result. (I believe that with age tuners tend to have a more brilliant/clear tone as they want to hear the partials more, and they also reduce the size of octave as they are bored with the "artificial stretch" (something that begin in the "temperament octave" often).
Those 2 options together may well balance themselves so the end result is also good.

This reminded me of something Sally Phillips told me... I commented on how good the octaves sounded on my piano when she tuned it; really clean and pure from top to bottom.

She said she did not add a lot of stretch to the octaves because they don't need it, especially with classical music.

She gave me a really good example to follow... I doubt I will ever achieve a tuning as good, but a worthy goal to have anyway. smile

Rick
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Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2270191 - 05/02/14 12:58 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Johnkie]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2038
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Banging a piano into submission in the cause of stability is typical of an inexperienced tuner in my opinion. There is absolutely no need for this brutality if one is able to set a wrestpin, and much kinder to the poor customer that has to listen while the tuning is being done.

+1
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#2270216 - 05/02/14 02:07 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7222
Loc: France
That said, tuning very long pianos with heavy strings implies a certain amount of power input, as long as the job cannot be done "at he pin".
then it is different, and less input necessary IMO.

I noticed German tuners like to tune "firm"
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#2270217 - 05/02/14 02:11 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 863
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Olek, of course I have time, especially when it comes to piano experiments and advancing the cause! I'm headed to German-land for concerts this weekend, but when I get back I'll think through more about what you've been suggesting with the unisons and try it out!

And yes, I balance out the 8/12/15...I think we probably do something similar...maybe...

It is so nice to chat with someone that is constantly thinking about how to improve things!!!
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Klavierbaukünstler

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#2270259 - 05/02/14 04:07 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: A443]
SMHaley Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 516
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie

What a stupid question! Real tuners don't need PCs cool


Real tuners need to be able to hear. Anyone seriously think that after 2-3 hours of heavy banging for a high level tuning, that a technician is able to hear subtleties in a tuning? That is non-sense: either mentally or physically, the ears fatigue.

I use earplugs, an ETD, and bang the piano into submission until it surrenders. ONLY then--with fresh ears--do I take out my earplugs make subtle adjustments as an aural tuner until the tuning is something truly very special. Tuning for stability, without an ETD, is unhealthy and dangerous!!!


So how does one make ET (I'm presuming) "something truly very special?" Especially if one has spent so much time with the machine and earplugs "banging it in to submission." I believe if one doesn't start at the beginning by listening to the subtleties, they probably aren't going to gain much in the end. Of course I refer to this more in the sense of concert tuning than taking a tall vertical pile of mediocrity and doing a pitch raise and fine tuning. I also believe if one can't tune for stability without a machine the likelihood of doings so with diminishes (IMO).
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#2270264 - 05/02/14 04:14 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: A443]
SMHaley Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 516
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Banging a piano into submission in the cause of stability is typical of an inexperienced tuner in my opinion. There is absolutely no need for this brutality if one is able to set a wrest pin [...].


I couldn't disagree with you more!

For starters: what inexperienced technician naturally bangs on a piano like that?!? LOL...that was a ridiculous statement: no inexperienced technicians do that naturally! Every student I have ever worked with has had to be taught when and how much to bang to ensure stability--if you don't bang, and the pianist does, well...then, you are probably used to unisons slipping in a concert. At the very least, banging is insurance!

Besides, there are two issues at work: 1) setting the tuning pin, and 2) rendering the string segments to ensure they are equalised, and thus, remain stable with playing (i.e., playing the piano should not make it go out of tune; it often does, because the inexperienced technician doesn't take the time to render the string segments). But this all also depends on the design of the piano, and how much the tuning has moved, etc. However, once the tuning is there, and nothing renders down/up anymore, then there is no further reason to bang. Everything is relative...


It doesn't take much time even on the youtube to see amateurs banging the snot out of a note while wildly turning their cheap tuning hammer with the false assumption that you bang it in to stability. Certainly the ideal situation each time would be to sit at a quality instrument that doesn't move much and just finesse it to perfection for an hour or so. But for most, that isn't much of a reality, even with concert instruments.
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#2270317 - 05/02/14 05:55 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7222
Loc: France
Instruments tuned by the best tuners are settled in their tuning and donot ask so much work, "ideally".

Then instruments in homes , tuned yearly or 6 months, may need also relatively simple tuning if the job was done well precedent.

That mean you can directly tune in fine mode, most often , even a portion of the piano needs "rebuilding".

No surprise, the tone is a little wild, but many notes do not ask for the pin to be really moved, direct shimming does it.

PS, what I call shimming usually is moving the string an the tuning pin together without modifying the pin's implantation .

Then there is also the action of re installing the tension of the NSL that have raised because it passed in the speaking length.

And all the manipulations to balance(even out as many say) the NSL with the pin on one side, the speaking length on the other.

even medium grade instruments can be find in stability condition, but there is a series of tuning that installs that condition ideally when the piano is recent, but can be done later even with old strings.

One need to "lock the pin with the wire" to get there. I see no other way.

Not to be done on harpsichords or FortePianas, that need much more frequent tunings, as the dismounting of the pin "setting" is not something I feel the instruments like much (and is more work for the tuner) . SO harpsichords are not really "set" and fortePianas more lightly than what can be done.


Regards

I do not worry much about the poor videos of DIY, it is normal they do not have good samples to work from, the training is taking time for the trainee but for the instructor too, so it is not free, out of asking your tuner to show you how to correct an unison, so you can touch with a finger how difficult it is and correct a few ones if necessary , make them discrete anyway. I showed a few customers, none of them can do fine tuning. they can make unison less bad usually.



Edited by Olek (05/02/14 06:41 PM)
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#2270351 - 05/02/14 07:45 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: SMHaley]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2038
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
... a tall vertical pile of mediocrity ...

Best description of many upright pianos that I've ever heard!
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Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
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#2270537 - 05/03/14 12:28 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: David Jenson]
SMHaley Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 516
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
... a tall vertical pile of mediocrity ...

Best description of many upright pianos that I've ever heard!


thumb
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2270546 - 05/03/14 12:55 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7222
Loc: France
that is sad that you have so much short or bad sounding pianos.

I tend not to give up in front of some small pianos, and when they are voiced and tuned, at last some musicality can be expressed.

I use a CHAS style tuning anytime I need to tune a poorly sounding piano, but if it is just because of age, I voice a little before tuning so I have something to work with.

the amount of musicality a tuner can obtain from a short mediocre piano (Cheap Chinese for instance) is really surprising, not that I like them but it happened as a challenge, and make me think of how important our work is for the pianist .
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#2270573 - 05/03/14 02:09 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Are short mediocre pianos better than tall mediocre pianos?
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2272106 - 05/06/14 11:10 PM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Minnesota Marty]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2038
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Are short mediocre pianos better than tall mediocre pianos?

Short pianos 'got no reason to live ... smile
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2272126 - 05/07/14 12:07 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: Minnesota Marty]
SMHaley Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 516
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Are short mediocre pianos better than tall mediocre pianos?


I think where pianos are concerned mediocrity is more an existential state of being not directly related to stature.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2272132 - 05/07/14 12:18 AM Re: Piano Tuning DIYers [Re: David Jenson]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1065
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Are short mediocre pianos better than tall mediocre pianos?

Short pianos 'got no reason to live ... smile


They got little strings
Little keys
Little hammers
Eaten by itty bitty fleas
They're too short to tune
And your back is bound to ache
And they got no room for
your hammer at the break

Short pianos 'got no reason
Short pianos 'got no reason
Short pianos 'got no reason to live
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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