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Bill, while your thumb is still getting better, can you explain your evidence that what Mark does doesn't work? I believe Mark with his achievements. How do you know that Mark does not produce stable tunings?
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Something I find perplexing about the internet and forums is that we forget that what others write must be taken at face value, and may not be true or accurate. It is just something that they believe and are saying, and once again, this does not make it true or right.
We need to test what others are saying and way up the evidence and be able to sift through all the stuff and get the principles and concepts that are practicable.
The other thing is though we would like to believe everything that others write and say, especially from those who have "Years of Experience", we cannot just believe it to be true or right. Once again, we have to go and test it out for ourselves. Just because someone has years of experience and a name tagged on to the end of their name, does not make them honest or upright. They may just be someone who has atttained to great heights, reached positions of stature and have a several names tagged onto the end of their name, and all of that gained by nefarious means. This is the real world we live in folks.
With regards to slow pull vs impact. I believe there are folks in both camps, that achieve solid and stable tunings.
As to the time that it takes to complete these tunings, I think that any professional tuner, using either of the opposing techniques, will complete the tuning in more or less the same time.
To belittle, attack, accuse and demean people who differ from what they believe is to be narrow minded, bigoted and intolerant. Yes? No?
There is a right way of convincing people and there is a wrong way.
Some peoples children never learn, though they want everyone else to "Know what they know", not knowing what they do not know.
Mark Piano tuner technician
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I believe to slow pull as the most efficient training for the pin's lecture.
It is a little addictive to feel pin and wire all along that way, and one tend to avoid loosing the contact then.
It is also a little addictive to directly tune where we want the string and not move it, listen/check, move it, listen, etc in rows.
Bu when the sensations are integrated, they can be used with more speed.
They are just necessary to tune more efficiently. (knowing the difference between the feel of the bottom and the one of the top)
To answer Bill, the pin, pinblock and wire are sort of auto locking system, so we need an amount of control to not allow them to lock before we ask. old string bends also may refrain the wire to stop where we want.
Regards
I agree tuners have much things in common, more thatn in differences !
Last edited by Olek; 05/08/14 05:29 AM.
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Bill, while your thumb is still getting better, can you explain your evidence that what Mark does doesn't work? I believe Mark with his achievements. How do you know that Mark does not produce stable tunings? I never said that what Mark does doesn't work and I never said his tunings are not stable. What I said is that I believe that an impact type technique is more efficient and lessens the need for forceful test blows but does not eliminate that need. I also said that one may give very forceful test blows without causing pain or injury.
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Sorry Bill, but I had read earlier: "Wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried!" which did not sound right, and then I thought that you were then elaborating on this in spite of Mark who is doing his best to educate us with his ways.
One thing for sure is that different people prefer, or have good reasons for, different ways of doing things. I do respect all those with ideas and experiences to share.
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Thanks Chris.
And Bill, remember I said I saw you tune. If you watch me tune, especially at the beginning of the P19 video, it's frighteningly similar. I believe we tune almost the same way. I may just "sense" the NSL tension more and maybe don't impact as much.
I find it more interesting that we behave much more similarly than we discuss.
Regards,
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Bill, while your thumb is still getting better, can you explain your evidence that what Mark does doesn't work? I believe Mark with his achievements. How do you know that Mark does not produce stable tunings? I never said that what Mark does doesn't work and I never said his tunings are not stable. What I said is that I believe that an impact type technique is more efficient and lessens the need for forceful test blows but does not eliminate that need. I also said that one may give very forceful test blows without causing pain or injury. What you use when tuning is years of habits , you feel the pin of course (that is a little new as even perception of the pin was considered useless on that forum 10 years ago) But you tune as sending a stone, then fine adjust the last bits. The idea of using slow pull is to be tuning "in real time" so the posture of the pin is similar from note to note. This can be done very fast or taking time, all depends the amount of confidence in the instrument. Certainly if a pin is twisted then left, it will spring back and lock. Then if it is not at the ideal position too much is to be done with shimming, and the pin's tress hardly will be similar from string to string. THe intersting thing with the method I use is that the pin firmness raise and raise in the block, so if I am beginning with a somehow soft sensation, I leave a very firm one and I will find it for all next tunings. If I find pins yet tight and tense, the tuner that worked before me did know its job well. Regards
Last edited by Olek; 05/08/14 08:11 AM.
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Something I find perplexing about the internet and forums Well it is a well known process now that people tend to disagree very easily, may be to proove their self esteem. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law Certainly exaggerated !
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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And thank you Mark D. Your comments are like a breath if fresh air.
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A young colleague I showed how to "slow pull to stability" passed his diploma exam a little later,
He told me the examiners went crazy banging as heck to obtain some drift. On the complete tuning, 2 notes could move with banging and after having tried harder than usual)
Extra fast hard blow I use, not test blows, they are here to input energy to render the string.
Most of the time I can avoid them.
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The impact method from what I understand, is just another way of tuning a piano.
At least two things, must be remembered when using the impact method,
1. Check that your pin string unit is solid and stable. 2. Check that your tuning is solid and stable.
It is that same for slow pull.
If we are not getting this right, then we will fail to achieve a good solid and stable tuning.
Last edited by Mark Davis; 05/08/14 08:19 AM. Reason: minor correction
Mark Piano tuner technician
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With regards to slow pull vs. impact, I'd like to point out that the piano makes a difference.
In the US are are many pianos (e.g., NY Steinway, Baldwin concert grands, and many others) where a slow pull isn't really all that effective. When the contact point of the string is so high up on the tuning pin compared to where the pin leaves the wood, you get a lot of movement in the top of the pin. If one, for example, can easily get 20-50 cents just by moderately moving the top of the pin, a faster impact style of tuning seems to work much better.
On other pianos, without this problem (i.e., where the wire is closer to the wood), a slow pull works great. I think one needs to be able to do both equally well. These are both important techniques to have, depending on how the piano feels and responds.
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In the US are are many pianos (e.g., NY Steinway, Baldwin concert grands, and many others) where a slow pull isn't really all that effective. When the contact point of the string is so high up on the tuning pin compared to where the pin leaves the wood, you get a lot of movement in the top of the pin. If one, for example, can easily get 20-50 cents just by moderately moving the top of the pin, a faster impact style of tuning seems to work much better.
On other pianos, without this problem (i.e., where the wire is closer to the wood), a slow pull works great. I think one needs to be able to do both equally well. These are both important techniques to have, depending on how the piano feels and responds.
Why is it so ? they do not use Klinke or similar tuning pins? I think that even with slow pull a lot of bending can be mastered, certainly it is not that agreable, I agree. Impact is cool also, if one knows well his instrument it can be used as well, but it is great to be able to decide the amount of stiffening that one installs in the pin/pinblock NSL couple, to have control on that part of the tuning.
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Olek, on an open-faced-pinblock (e.g., a Bösendorfer 290), the wire is pulling on the pin at a point that is very close to the opening in the wood [visualise: the wire goes in the hole of the tuning pin, wraps around a few times = this point is what I am talking about]. When this point is close to the wood, there is a very stable and smooth feel to the tuning and very little pin bending that happens--this kind of situation rarely 'needs' and impact technique. If you were to compare that with a NY steinway, there is at least a plate thickness difference in this hight, which results in much more flexibility at the pin.
Essentially we are talking about tuning pin height, but what really matters is that point I described. We could all observe this effect by pounding in the tuning pins in 1/2mm increments and noting the differences as you go: the difference is remarkable.
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Well yes, but I know how the tuning pin is bending or bowing any time I tune, it just add some springy sensation that have to be differentiated from the rest. That mean plates are thicker on US instruments generally speaking ? more than 10 mm ?
if that pull the wire to more than 100 cts it is certainly some trouble.
Tuning pin quality is also important. if they are springy and stiff enough this can help tuning, creating small ticks for increments.
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The pianos like the D and the SD-10 don't use tuning pin bushings, so the distance between the wood and the string point of contact is at least the thickness of the plate. Whether the plate is 1mm or 10mm, that doesn't matter, it is still significantly MORE distance on the pin than with an open faced pin block [or a properly installed tuning pin bushings]--especially when one can feel a noticeable difference with mere 1/2mm increments in the setting of the pin height.
The point of this conversation is that: when there is a LARGE distance between the pin block and the bottom of the coil, there is more of a necessity to use an impact technique; using a slower pull technique in that situation tends to tilt the pin more before moving it.
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The point of this conversation is that: when there is a LARGE distance between the pin block and the bottom of the coil, there is more of a necessity to use an impact technique; using a slower pull technique in that situation tends to tilt the pin more before moving it. Except when using Levitan's C lever, which completely transformed my negative opinion of non-bushed pins. When the inevitable flagpoling that happens with a trad lever is minimized, as the C lever does, that pin cantilevered flexibility actually can be a help in finding the stable zone. Jim Ialeggio
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Nobody has really answered my question. What do you do to reduce ear and joint damage, assuming you do not use ear plugs? I sometimes use the forearm smash, like Stephen Brady, ( with earplugs ), after tuning mf. I have also a key striker made from a bass hammer. Touch up what is necessary, play a piece of music to reconcile with the piano and the piano owner . ( BTW that is what you profs should do here!!) and then go home, or to the next piano, or something like that
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Except when using Levitan's C lever, which completely transformed my negative opinion of non-bushed pins. When the inevitable flagpoling that happens with a trad lever is minimized, as the C lever does, that pin cantilevered flexibility actually can be a help in finding the stable zone. I can believe that statement--even without ever having tried the C lever. I should get one to play around with; I can see where there could be some advantages for that kind of hammer, at least in some situations.
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One thing that also can't be overlooked, and is somewhat getting danced around, is the type and quality of the pinblock (and pins) and how it responds to different sorts of movement based on the feedback being given through the tuning hammer. In my regular piano gig I have two very different animals to keep "concert ready" and they both require a different approach to reach their optimal stability. The Baldwin F, on its second pinblock (a micro-laminate) likes more of a gentle impact approach. No wild jerking, just encouraging nudges. It doesn't like to be fussed with using a cautious slow-pull. Get in, get out, move on.
The Kohler & Campbell SKG600 however, with a wider ply multi-laminate pinblock insists on more of a slow pull, and then you have to fuss with it to get it to settle and stabilize, and even then it likes to wander. It feels kind of spongy and there is no clear rendering of the pin or string. Trying more impact motions and it can't settle and will destabilize in a matter of hours. It just doesn't like it. I feel there are other things in play here, but this is how it responds.
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256) Zuckermann Flemish Single
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