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Joined: May 2001
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Try as I might I cannot get to grips with "just" and "wolf" tuning. Help! "The piano is an untunable instrument. With only 12 notes in an octave, their combinations (intervals) cannot all be perfectly "in tune" at once. Tuning a note to perfect one interval will spoil others which use that same note ,thus, compromises (tempering) are used to create the maximum number of usable intervals" Untuneable? Ugh? From http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.htmlYou seem to have an electronic piano. If it is capable of setting various temperaments other than ET -as some digital pianos can do-, then you can try the temperaments and decide which one you like the most. And, if you have an acoustic piano, which you should, since you are asking this at tuner's section, then you can have your piano tuned to that temperament as well. edit: Oops, your tagline says you need a piano. I hope you can get one soon. Really there is no comparison between a digital and a real piano. A real piano is much more satisfying in every way.
Last edited by Hakki; 05/09/14 11:22 AM.
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Dear Mark,
You understand what you want not what I write.
I told you to ask BDB about the difference between a 6:3 and a 4:2 octave because when I did ask him he had no idea what I was talking about! I wonder how could he tune a piano.
But apparently you are not understanding what I said.
My point is that you have not enough experience to question Mr. Bremmer's tunings. I've read in another thread that occasionaly you have tuned UT using an ETD. Then, as I said before, you have no experience in tuning it by ear, you just tune what the ETD tells you is right, but are you aware of what you are doing? That is why I asked you to say in your own words what a Well Temperament is and you have not answered.
I ask you to show a little respect to the trade and to people like Mr. Bremmer who has devoted his entire life to tune pianos in a intelligent way, questioning what was writen 100 years ago and proposing and teaching new ways of tuning a piano,:from designing a new temperament to developping new techniques and sequences to tune other temperaments.
A beginer like you, IMO, should close his mouth and open his ears and his mind, to to listen carefully and learn from the more experienced craftmen who post in this forum.
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Rafael
No, it is you who understand what you want.
Remember, that I said I am not answerable to you. What did you not understand about that?
I tune aurally in general, though I sometimes use a device. I am able to tune ET aurally too.
You are an utter hypocrite Rafael. You want to speak to me about respect when you speak to me in the manner that you do?
No, until you prove yourself worthy to enter into dialogue with, please understand my silence toward you as one of disdain.
Last edited by Mark Davis; 05/09/14 05:07 PM. Reason: make a necessary correction
Mark
Piano tuner technician
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Can we get back to the temperament please?
Lucas Brookins, RPT
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Thank you for answering. HW
"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
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To me, as an amateur, this thread, like so many others, shows that there is still much mystery about tuning a piano well, due mostly, I think, to inharmonicity. If piano tuning, to a concert level, was reducible to a simple mathematical construct, predicted and presented by an ETD - or, tuning was an easily heard, easily trained, easily reproducible aural exercise, there wouldn't be such animosity amongst the various contributers. Greetings, There is little mystery: the division of the octave is well understood, easily measured, and put into practice daily. Straight out of the machine tunings from a modern ETD can meet the highest demands of the musical community with their computer generated spreads, ( I have seen it and done it), and whole rooms of piano tuners, listening critically, are usually evenly split between preferring the best aural against a an unmodified machine's program. I have a hard time accepting that a musician would notice a difference when using either. What the constant rancor around the subject shows me that there is still considerable fear, both profound and unacknowledged, in the tuning community. We are all square pegs, spend too much time by ourselves, and are prone to be sensitive when our work is questioned. We fear the critique, we fear the rejection. We fear not being the authority, and this fear is corrosive. It arrives from its mediocre shadows, cloaked in neon vehemence, armed with righteousness and virtual venom. There are clues, such as the spontaneous fumaroles of animosity. Even the tuning test of the PTG is excoriated by many that have yet to demonstrate the ability to pass it. I question the world-view of anyone spouting a dogmatic, fundamentalist, exaltation of this or that approach, this or that result, inevitably digressing into a questioning of other's intelligence, hearing, musicality, or morals. Sometimes it gets all the way to Adolph, but usually sputters out like a forgotten fire. Some people have enshrined what their manner of tuning happens to be. It is their identity. In their allegiance, they find nobility and go about hanging all sorts of freight, from spiritual to commercial, on a well-glorified technique. It is these techs that regard any suggestion to change the sacred as an attack, or at least, solid heresy. The eruptions and rantings, lunges of logic, the inevitable calumniation, all provide endless amusement, enjoy. Regards, Thank you Ed. You've summed it up quite brilliantly. Tim
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Mark,
I have nothing to prove here, but it seems you do have something to prove, so go ahead and prove whatever it may be.
The more you talk the more your ignorance shows its ugly face.
A well temperamnt is (I'll use my own words) a circular, irregular temperament, in which the tonalities with less alterations (sharps and flats) in their key keys signatures are more harmonious than the tonalities with more alterations.
That is why the videos posted here are examples of reverse well. In the first one one FA and GB M3s were more tempered than F#A#. In the second video B major and C# major sounded more harmonious than C major.
That is the result of tuning a sequence based on the circle of 5ths starting at C and tuning up and down, 5ths and 4ths that are too pure. When we finaly get to F#/Gb the circle does not close. Then we are tempted to retune the 5ths and 4ths, going backwards from F# both ways to C, tempering the intervals a little more than we did before.
The final result is purer fifths/fourths near C, which lead to M3s too tempered and more tempered 5ths/4ths near F#, which lead to purer M3s. That is Reverse Well.
Mark Davis says that he has tuned Well Temperaments with his ETD! Is it a joke?
Does that means that he knows what a Well Temperament is? Or what a Well Temperament sounds like? And how to tune a Well Temperament? Or how to recognize a Reverse Well tuned in place of a suposed ET?
Of course NO! That only means he is able to tune a string making the patern of his ETD stop. He can for sure tune whatever temperament you can imagine, as long as it is included in it's ETD library. LOL!
But does he understand what he is doing? I don't know. He refused to answer!
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Mark Davis says that he has tuned Well Temperaments with his ETD! Is it a joke?
This is a lie. When did I say this? Proove it! Most people tune well temperaments by ETD. What is the problem? In fact, who does not? I am sure that the number of piano tuners who tune well temperaments by ETD far out number those who tune them aurally. I have tuned EBVT aurally and Valotti aurally. Are you calling me a liar?
Last edited by Mark Davis; 05/09/14 06:00 PM. Reason: correction
Mark
Piano tuner technician
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Rafael, please edit your posts and remove your pernicious and malevolent attacks and lies.
Immediately!
Mark
Piano tuner technician
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Of course NO! That only means he is able to tune a string making the patern of his ETD stop.
You are a pernicious liar. Pure Vitriol!
Mark
Piano tuner technician
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Who said we got off the topic of temperament?!
Semipro Tech
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I thought you weren't going to answer me, but I see that your need to prove your point is stronger! Jeje!
So be it. Here we are talking about temperament, about Equal Temperament and about Reverse Well Temperament.
So,the problem is that you don't know what you are talking about!
And you are so arrogant that you dare to criticize someone who has done it for more than 30 years with a professional quality. Some one that has tuned nearly all temperaments historically used, from just intonation, meantone (I wonder if you know what it is...), Well, Victorian, Quasi Equal and of course ET. Someone who has designed its own Victorian Temperament, someone who has researched and came out with a bullet proof sequence, designed for beginers like you, to tune a decent ET instead of an ugly Reverse Well.
How do you dare!?
Last edited by Gadzar; 05/09/14 06:10 PM.
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Like Ed said, pure entertainment!
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Ok, let me give Bill the recognition you want him to have.
He is one smart guy, but there are certainly others that far out shine him. I am sorry for touching your idol!
If you are as good at tuning as you are at telling lies and sowing discord and being pernicious and malevolent, then you must be excellent indeed.
Forget the reverse well thing, you're being hood winked. Franz Mohr tuned it, so some have said on PW, and he received great recognition and praise, except from the those who love to defame, and assassinate the characters of others here on PW.
Mark
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Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Lucas Brookins, RPT
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If you are going to have popcorn, get me some liquorice please.
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Like Ed said, pure entertainment! Very, very sad I'll say. HW
"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
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Mark Davis says that he has tuned Well Temperaments with his ETD! Is it a joke?
Does that means that he knows what a Well Temperament is? Or what a Well Temperament sounds like? And how to tune a Well Temperament? Or how to recognize a Reverse Well tuned in place of a suposed ET?
Of course NO! That only means he is able to tune a string making the patern of his ETD stop. He can for sure tune whatever temperament you can imagine, as long as it is included in it's ETD library. LOL!
But does he understand what he is doing?
Yes, i know how to recognise reverse well. By insinuating that I don't, as you have insinuated about a whole lot of things, all you have basically done is lie, to portray something as to be true when it is not. This is pernicious and malevolent. Period! I have also told you that I tune aurally in general, and that I do and can tune ET. Yes, pakka ET. So, by you saying what you have, denying what I have told you and said on PW, you are calling me a liar, but the problem is you have no evidence. On the contrary, I have evidence that you are a liar, and it is right here on PW.
Mark
Piano tuner technician
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Last edited by Mark Davis; 05/09/14 08:22 PM. Reason: removed the unecessary
Mark
Piano tuner technician
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