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#2321812 - 08/30/14 07:01 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Nobody knows who you are and yo have never posted a recording of a piano that you have tuned.
It will be yet a month before I can finish-up my work here in Europe to make it back to the US, but when I do, I will happily make some more recordings for you to criticise.

Olek has greatly inspired/encouraged me to consider changing my tuning focus from dissonance control, to more a consonance/resonance based approach. I was planing on doing that on my return anyway; I will eagerly await other's opinion on the matter--I think it is an improvement, but there are a few drawbacks...which may or may not be noticeable in performance.

However, I did indeed post a recording of mine not too long ago--perhaps you overlooked that detail.

This piano was tuned for a concert in a large hall, it survived the truck ride back to the kitchen were it is kept and a full 3 months of heavy, daily practice. Nothing was tuned/touched-up for this recording--it was merely a test recoding to try out some new equipment. The pianist begrudgingly sat down a did a quick take to appease my interest. As I have said before, there is nothing special about this tuning other than the stability--this was a generic tuning that needed to work for solo, 4-hand, and chamber music during the performance, so the options were limited.



I will be happy to start posting more videos; it sounds like a lot of fun--it's nice to read you have such an interest in my work.
thumb
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2321824 - 08/30/14 08:33 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I agree. Lucas should commended on his progress but in my opinion as an RPT, I would not recommend he attempt the exam. I believe the unisons would not pass.

As for your ranting at A443 Bill, I find it distasteful.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2321827 - 08/30/14 08:44 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 480
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
What kind of dog is that? Why does it sit so still for Liszt?
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

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#2321837 - 08/30/14 09:08 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I agree. Lucas should commended on his progress but in my opinion as an RPT, I would not recommend he attempt the exam. I believe the unisons would not pass.

As for your ranting at A443 Bill, I find it distasteful.


Mark,Lucas is a high school student and is not yet a member of PTG. Joining, paying dues and exam fees would cost him about $1,000. I would like to see you make the false beats in that Kawai sound better. My guess is that neither you nor anyone else could.

The problem that I have with some of the people on here is with those who seem to enjoy shooting a beginner in the back. Just what exactly does that word, "professional" imply? Does it mean that someone receives payment for services provided? If so, then the person who for years neglected and provided Reverse Well for a temperament, not to mention bad unisons and no stability whatsoever was a professional and did professional work and still does.

What I and several others noted was that Lucas' two tunings were quite remarkably good considering everything and they will be used at the tech college for their usual purposes. I will say it again: Lucas already has sufficient skill to pass the PTG tuning exam. I am not basing that opinion on any you tube video.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2321838 - 08/30/14 09:17 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Zeno Wood]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Zeno Wood
Why does it sit so still for Liszt?
LOL...she's an old, piano lov'n Shih Tzu. Her placement on the piano was an homage some videos 5 years ago. Normally she sits under the piano, but atop she typically makes less noise during a recording...except for in this video--she barks at the end and has the final word!



Sometimes the dog performs abstract works for piano, but somehow she's never really been able to get it fully concert ready--maybe someday. laugh

_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2321858 - 08/30/14 11:04 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Bill, I must agree.

Lukas has produced a particular beauty in the descant.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2322113 - 08/31/14 03:01 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
A443:

I fail to see how a comment like yours can be construed as "shooting a beginner in tbe back". You have clearly shown, in your previous post, what you wrote, and what Bill read into it, are two completely different things.

Bill might be basing his assessment of Lukas's RPT-readiness on more than a youtube video, but the rest of the readers here only have that video. I am in no position to judge Lukas's RPT-readiness, but I found your response to Bill's unconditional praise a credible contribution to the thread. Unfortunately, it's had the usual effect:

Once again, this thread has deteriorated into personal attacks and defensiveness. I was wondering when this would happen, and here you have it. It happens as soon as an opinion is expressed that Bill does not concur with. I suggest that in order to keep this interesting and enriching thread on its tracks, only compliments (or perhaps, carefully worded questions) are contributed, and that any criticism, valid as though it may be, is withheld. That might be an artificial way to proceed, but in my experience it's the only one that works. (If anyone is wondering what makes me write this, just turn a few pages back...)
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2322437 - 08/31/14 11:07 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
OK, here we go again. A 17 year old student does remarkably well and several people say so, including the person at the tech college who has offered his endorsement of the high school senior to take over the care and maintenance of the pianos at his school from the "professional" who has neglected them for years and provided very obviously substandard service.

It was that substandard service itself that motivated Lucas to look into doing something about it himself. Much like Professor Patrick Wingren from Finland, if he wanted it done at all, not just done right but done at all, he was going to have to do it himself. Patrick looked for methods that worked and found them. Now, he is an RPT and a tuning examiner too. As a very thoroughly qualified music professional, he knows what is acceptable and what is not.

So, Lucas posts a couple of cell phone videos of his results and I found them to be quite admirable and said so. I stand by those statements. But then, we have, as we occasionally do on here, an anonymous person who often writes meaningless and incomprehensible posts that offer nothing at all in the way of constructive criticism, advice on tequniques but only the hint that the boy has a long way to go before he ever gets there, wherever "there" actually is.

He posts two videos of a lady playing a piano and the dog on the piano attracts more attention than the music does. Of course, I did not find anything to criticize about the music from the video. The sound was fine and what could be expected from a video of a high caliber artist performing on a piano worth more than $100,000 and for which there had always been the highest levels of skill and maintenance performed upon it.

But never mind that kind of apples and oranges comparison! The utility, small grand piano at the tech college that cost only 1/10th what the piano in the video with the dog on it, was expected to sound like the $100,000 piano does or else it is not "professional".

I would really like to see the results of either of the people who chose to literally shoot Lucas in the back go to that tech college. Along with all of the other pianos that have to be tuned and serviced there, with all of their problems as well, do any slim margin better than what Lucas had done. All he was asked to do was tune it. He found the piano wildly sharp and out of tune as it usually would be at this time of year.

Don't try to tell me that the sharpness of the piano was due to not having set the pins correctly the last time. Tuning pins do not turn themselves tighter! Talk about "not floating the pitch"! That piano had been last tuned at -4 cents but now it was +28 cents! No tuning pin turns itself tighter from -4 cents to +28! Nobody on earth can "set" a tuning pin that will stay where it is under those conditions. As good as it may have sounded when tuned, the next time, it will be extremely flat. That is the reality.

Yes, there can be provisions for voicing and other maintenance and they have been performed. After all, that piano was the "concert grand" for the tech college auditorium for about 20 of the 24 years it has served that college. Many visiting artists performed on it and yes, a few complained about how small it was until a battered old Steinway B replaced it and the college forked out the money for new action parts for it because the old ones were completely shot.

That Steinway needs a good half day maintenance but the college has been balking at that for a year now because the "professionals" that play it do not complain and the professional staff don't yet see what the problems are.

What we have here is the dichotomy between the very highest levels of piano service excellence that is even possible in the loftiest places on the earth and the reality of what most piano technicians across North America and certainly in most other places in the world have to contend with every day. Just what is the definition of "professional" results?

What is going to happen and I will be very happy to announce it when it does happen, is that Lucas will do something quite unprecedented within the next few weeks, if not sooner. It will be done primarily upon his own initiative but it will also be because of the support and endorsement of professionals such as myself, the tech college and another local high school.

Lucas will gain the contract for tuning and maintenance of pianos at his high school and perhaps the middle and elementary schools in the district because of the work he has done this summer and the endorsement of credible music professionals. Whatever those entities have paid for piano technician services during Lucas' entire existence on earth has not been worth a dime!

That is not unlike what Patrick Wingren experienced. For the out of tune state of pianos to be merely rearranged a little is not piano service and it is worth less than nothing at all. Those who pay for it are not all that stupid. When nobody can even notice the difference before and after and it only gets worse as time goes on, such services are not needed and are worthless.

That is the state to which so many school pianos have deteriorated and the value of piano technician services right along with them. It takes persistence to turn that around. I have certain schools now ordering piano tunings multiple times per year at full price. It has been that way with some of them for many years now. They saw the value.

Some of the schools have produced fine young musicians such as Lucas is, a recipient of the Madison Area Music Association "First Chair" award during the last few months. Believe me, I know that he works long and hard hours as a musician. It would truly be a shame to discourage such a fine and potential piano technician and pianist by saying that his work is not yet up to professional standards when in fact, it really already is.

The nearby high school where we worked early this Summer to rescue a Kawai RX-5 from literally the junk yard with carefully and aptly applied CA glue treatment is an example of how a music program at a high school where many of the students' parents are unemployed due to factory shut downs is an example of how the music program at a high school can sustain itself with abundance.

That high school produced one super star who at age 14 began working at the local performing arts center along with a newly engaged house technician. He learned all about lighting and sound. He had profuse talent. He starred in every high school musical including, "High School Musical" throughout his years there.

Upon his graduation, he booked the Janesville Performing Arts Center with his band and himself at the piano as a pianist and vocalist and sold out the house. He made money. He started his own company in Chicago. He has come back to his home town each year to perform a fundraiser for the school and each time, packed the house. Those funds have supported the music program there ever since and they paid for the repairs that were necessary for the Kawai grand.

Lucas participated in those repairs as you can see on far earlier pages and he got money for doing it. He does not need to be shot in the back right now from some person who only services the highest levels of instruments there are. Lucas very much wants the opportunity to tune that kind of piano! If you want him to succeed as a piano technician, you will find a way for him to apprentice with YOU!

If this profession is to continue, who else would be a more likely candidate? Sure, there are expensive schools that have parents who fund the education and sure, there are a few who come out of them who are really exceptional. But when you have pure, raw, ambition and talent, what more can you ask for?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2322444 - 08/31/14 11:44 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Happy Birthday Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Nice post Bill. And great job with Lucas.

It's been three months you started this thread and it's impressive how Lucas has progressed. He has learned in a few weeks what took me years to learn.

I have learned a lot of things from your writings. I can not but imagine what Lucas can learn from you been at your side.

Thank you for being such a great teacher and mentor.

Cheers thumb
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2322449 - 08/31/14 11:56 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21917
Loc: Oakland
I think he is doing quite well and you have done a good job teaching him, Mr. Bremmer.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2322473 - 09/01/14 01:22 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Bill Bremmer RPT, why did you continue to include me in your post? I can only conclude that means you would like to discuss the issue further...
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2322483 - 09/01/14 02:19 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
So, Lucas posts a couple of cell phone videos of his results and I found them to be quite admirable and said so. I stand by those statements.
Really?!? Is that what you think you wrote? shocked wow

Here is a reminder of what was actually written:
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
"I am sure you will agree that what this young, 17 1/2 year old student produced was a totally professional sounding tuning!"

"He really looks like a pro already!"

"the careful instruction that I gave him resulted in a tuning that any professional pianist would accept and use for virtually any recording venue."
Just to be clear: had Bill Bremmer RPT wrote "quite admirable"--instead of what he actually wrote--there would have been no need to point out that his statements were over-the-top.

I think the progress that That Tooner has made is MORE than admirable: way to go That Tooner...[slap on the back]...keep-up the great work! The upright tuning was excellent.

It has been stated that Bill Bremmer RPT was there for the upright tuning. How much input did he have on the end result? Did he help at any point in time? I ask, because it appears he was not there for the Kawai grand; those results are audible not as good. I'd like to know why there is such a huge difference in the sound quality--especially in the middle of the piano. I wasn't there, so it is hard for me to know how much the piano's falseness factored into the tuning; I believe is wasn't insignificant, but still, there is a lot of motion in that ocean.

Bill Bremmer RPT, you are using the terms pro/professional with regards to That Tooner; since you choose to do that, then you both must also choose to be mature enough to take criticism like professionals. The sound quality may have been acceptable for a technical college, but it is FAR from the level of a recording or concert situation (i.e., to which as was alluded to by Bill Bremmer RPT). If people think my statements are 'shooting That Tooner in the back,' then by all means, feel free call me Gunslinger and lets git along with the topic little doggies. smirk ....[bang, bang]
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2322502 - 09/01/14 04:42 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
But then, we have, as we occasionally do on here, an anonymous person who often writes meaningless and incomprehensible posts that offer nothing at all in the way of constructive criticism, advice on tequniques but only the hint that the boy has a long way to go before he ever gets there, wherever "there" actually is.
Fair enough. From now on, I pledge to offer constructive criticism on everything you guys post in order to provide more balance, and perhaps a slightly different mental approach in developing technique.

Be forwarded: constructive criticism is not a personal attack--please don't treat it as such. 2hearts
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2322506 - 09/01/14 05:15 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
I would really like to see the results of either of the people who chose to literally shoot Lucas in the back go to that tech college.
[...]
Lucas participated in those repairs as you can see on far earlier pages and he got money for doing it. He does not need to be shot in the back right now from some person who only services the highest levels of instruments there are. Lucas very much wants the opportunity to tune that kind of piano! If you want him to succeed as a piano technician, you will find a way for him to apprentice with YOU!
Bill Bremmer RPT, I accept your challenge. thumb yippie

I will fly the c.5000 miles--at my own expense--to demonstrate how I would have serviced that piano, given the institutional setting. Since words will not suffice, that is the only way we are going to know if the sound could have been improved upon, right?

If That Tooner wants to apprentice with ME, then it would be a perfect opportunity for me to audition his aptidude in the process. Please forward me the contact information(s), and I will make the necessary arrangements to be in that part of the world: either the 3rd week in October, or the 2nd week in January. I would be willing to work with him for a few days, and at no charge to the school. While the smaller Kawai will not sound like my kitchen piano, I'm confident SIGNIFICANT improvements can be made.

That is what I propose, and then a video for everyone to compare the results? How about that? confused
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

Top
#2322619 - 09/01/14 11:39 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Knock it off!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2322630 - 09/01/14 12:03 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Knock it off!

Oh no!!!

This would be the hottest event of Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum.

Besides everybody would win.

Lucas would receive extra apprenticeship for free.

The institution would have a better prepared piano.

And it would be great for the forum to follow.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2322644 - 09/01/14 12:46 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Despite the occasional awkwardness which has arisen in this thread, something quite amazing has happened.

It is about a young man, still in high school, who wanted to learn about how pianos were properly tuned and challenged himself to find a way to learn how to do it. That's impressive.

He reached out to another, via the net, to establish the contacts he needed. More impressive.

He found someone who was willing to take interest in his plight and to take him on as an apprentice. Awesome.

This thread has had well over 24,000 viewings and over 300 replies by active participants. Mind boggling.

In this day and age, when many bemoan the loss of "whatever," here we have an excellent example of optimism and dedication.

That, in and of itself, deserves the highest respect we can offer.

Does anyone fault the pride taken in accomplishment?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2322645 - 09/01/14 12:51 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2416
Loc: Portland, Oregon
+++++1

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#2322647 - 09/01/14 12:52 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: That Tooner]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3991
Loc: Rockford, IL
So, Lucas, I was thinking about "advice," and because I know you are incredibly adept and intelligent, I hesitate to offer any, especially because part of me believes that we are all right where we should be at the moment, "stewing" and "experiencing" in some kind of preparation for whatever it is that comes next in our lives. And so, instead of advice, I guess I'd just like to relate to you something I've noticed in myself as I've been learning this highly specialized trade: every time I tune, I hear something new that I did not hear before that makes my tuning on *any piano* better the next time; and, every time I tune a piano that I've tuned before, I learn something about *that piano* that I did not know before that allows me to adjust *it* in a way that makes *it* sound better each time. It has nothing to do with conscious effort. It has to do with organic noticing. It is the notion of "organic noticing" that I mean to encourage you with. Your conscious effort is remarkable, and, quite frankly, I find it inspiring!!! I really do. And the thread you and Bill have made is a goldmine! And your progress is nothing short of phenomenal!!! You are incredibly and specially gifted for this line of work--that part is clearly evident! I have a strong feeling that you are also remarkably adept at "organic noticing," otherwise, you would not be tuning aurally so well, so quickly. I just wanted to draw your attention to the idea that certain things can come to your attention by simply letting them come to you, this "organic noticing" being a "thing," a tool in your "toolbox of being," to have at your ready, if you weren't already aware that it was sitting in that toolbox, ready for you to use. wink There it is! grin

Thank you so much for sharing your progress so publicly! Your courage and fortitude are commendable, as well!

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2322666 - 09/01/14 01:27 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
That Tooner Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 88
Loc: Janesville WI
Andy, I know exactly what you are talking about and have experienced it quite a few times. A443, you can come if you'd like, but you will have to go through a background check, just like Mr. Bremmer did.
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2322673 - 09/01/14 01:46 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Lucas,

That was the best comment I have read in ages!

wink
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2322675 - 09/01/14 01:49 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I'm willing to kick in a couple of hundred dollars to fund the event. I think it's an awesome idea.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2322678 - 09/01/14 01:57 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
A crowd-sourced pissing match.

What an idea !!!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2322683 - 09/01/14 02:09 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: That Tooner]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3991
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: That Tooner
Andy, I know exactly what you are talking about and have experienced it quite a few times.[...]


Exxxxcellent!... yUooooose the fohrse, Luke! grin
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2322701 - 09/01/14 02:53 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: A454.7]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: A443

I will fly the c.5000 miles--at my own expense--to demonstrate how I would have serviced that piano, given the institutional setting. Since words will not suffice, that is the only way we are going to know if the sound could have been improved upon, right?


In case you didn't notice, the Kawai KG-2E grand was at Madison Area Technical College, not at Lucas' high school. If you want to work on it there, you will have to get permission from the college which would include the vetting of your credentials. You will have to work on the piano when it is not in use for instruction and that will not be until next January.

If you want to make that piano sound better, you will have to be prepared to restring the treble and high treble which would include the dressing of the capo bars and re-notching and repinning the bridges.

Then, you will have to reshape and voice hammers which have been in heavy and constant use for 24 years. That would probably mean that those hammers need replacement and that would include shanks, flanges and knuckles. You will have to pay all of the expenses because the college won't.

If you still want to go through with it all, you might be able to make the piano sound better once you get the newly strung section up to pitch but that won't last long at all. The piano is now about +6 cents in pitch, so you have another +6 cents to go if you are to reach what you profess to be your ideal pitch but the college faculty will probably object to such a high pitch, that is, if you were to work on it during the next month which you cannot.

Whatever pitch you do decide to tune it at, the piano will be at least 20 cents lower than that and completely out of tune by next January when it will be scheduled to be tuned again. It would be a mistake and folly to tune it at +12 cents at that time of year because it will inevitably rise to about +35 cents by next Summer and that would greatly over stress the instrument and do far more harm than good.

It won't ever sound like the piano in the videos you posted, no matter what you do. It is a short scaled piano, so you will not get the Bass to sound anything like what it does on the larger, far more expensive pianos that you may be used to working with. You cannot change that and you cannot voice the high inharmonicity from the Bass.

As for me inserting you in this discussion, I think it is abundantly clear that you inserted yourself or rather imposed yourself if my opinion matters. All comments are welcome, of course, including constructive criticism as Hakki suggested. What you wrote, in my opinion was more of a put down.

Any really good piano technician never stops learning and improves throughout his or her lifetime. Certainly, Lucas will do that and I have told him many times that he should seek to learn from as large a pool of sources as possible. Any good piano technician does.

The techniques I taught Lucas so far were a place for him to begin. I have helped countless people gain the skills necessary to pass the PTG tuning exam. All were professional piano technicians but many whom I have helped still lacked the skills necessary to pass that exam. What I provided were the insights to actually accomplish what they needed and wanted but which they had not understood until that time.

Of course, what I taught them were not the one and only techniques that there are but they were the ones that worked for them at the time they needed techniques which they could understand and put to use with consistent and successful results.

If you want to be helpful and useful to Lucas or any other aspiring or struggling technician, then I would suggest that you offer some tips and techniques that would actually provide some benefit, not what you have said and done so far.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2322725 - 09/01/14 03:51 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Aw come on Bill. Give A443 a chance. I believe in you A443.

And let's not forget what is being suggested here. A professional technician has just offered to spend a week with a 17 year old beginning piano tuner. Gone are the days when apprentices could learn in factories and get paid doing it.

Whether or not A443 can improve that piano or not, is not the question, and is not even being suggested. A443 has offered free training. No matter what happens, Lucas wins.

Anyone who tries to interfere with this process should ask themselves why they are so against it.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2322728 - 09/01/14 03:59 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: bkw58
This thread is an oasis.


Yes, it was. But too many cooks spoil the broth. frown
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2322735 - 09/01/14 04:15 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1228
Loc: Québec, Canada
I too find it sad that this thread is going off the rails.

To A443, I would suggest starting a new thread of your own about "educating" someone else. A young person much like Lucas that obviously has aptitudes. One that would make it more practical perhaps than you flying over trying to further boast about your abilities.

Another fun and educating thread would be nice.

To Mr. Bremmer. I recently got a few nasty emails from another poster here because I reacted too quickly to his post. Not A443. In retrospect, it almost seems as that poster was baiting the forum. And I caught the bait. I ignored his emails and now ignore his posts or threads.

I suggest you ignore A443 right now, even if it is only to keep your thread clean, fun, enlightening etc...

If he and you want to argue, it still would be fun in another thread.

Congrats to Lucas as well!
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2322737 - 09/01/14 04:18 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: bkw58]
Happy Birthday Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City

Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: bkw58
This thread is an oasis.


Yes, it was. But too many cooks spoil the broth. frown


Yes, do not forget Lucas is still learning. If he has a teacher saying "tune this way" and then another teacher saying: "no that's wrong, do it this way..."

I think the student may get confused confused. I don't think it could be profitable for him.

Anyway, the decision is not mine! smile
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2322750 - 09/01/14 04:46 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Lucas,

Here is a tip for using the "Up a 3rd, up a 3rd, down a 5th" temperament sequence that I taught you. Copy the image below and if that does not work, I can send you a larger copy by e-mail. If you can fit several copies on one page, you can print out the page and either cut them up into slips or just use each image one by one as you go to tune aurally your next several pianos.



As you go through the sequence, mark each key that you have tuned such as with an "X". For the black keys, just place the "X" right under the black key.

You first have to tune the A4 and A3, then you have to tune the Contiguous Major Thirds (CM#), F3-A3-C#4-F4-A4. When you are satisfied with that, mark each of those keys.

Now, you begin the rest of the sequence (down a 5th from C#4).
Mark the key that you are going to tune before you start to tune it. When you start, you are tuning F#3 as a 5th from C#4. As you look at your keyboard chart, you see that there is only one check that you have at that point, a minor third (m3) with A3.

That is OK, though because you can compare the F#3-A3 m3 with the A3-C#4 M3 (previously tuned) and should find the F#3-C#4 5th slightly tempered and that the F#3-A3 m3 beats slightly faster than the A3-C#4 M3. The F#3-A3 m3 should also sound very similar to the C#4-F4 M3 but not quite as fast as the F4-A4 M3. Actually, right in between the two. So, even though there seems to be only one check available, there are several ways to prove that it is correct.

Next, you go "up a 3rd" from F#3 to A#3. Mark A#3. Now look at your chart and ask yourself which previously tuned note you can tune it from? The answer is F3. So, you tune A#3 from F3 as a tempered 4th. You can use the test note, C#3 and expect that the C#3-A#3 M6 will beat slightly faster than the C#3-F3 M3. You now have two chromatic M3's which you can compare for evenness. You can also compare the F3-A#3 4th and the A#3-F4 5th. The 4th should beat only very slightly more prominently than the 5th above it.

Now, you go "up a 3rd" again to D4. Mark it. Then you see that you can tune it as a 4th from A3. Then several more checks become available. Test note F3 for tempered 4th. Chromatic M3's, A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 for evenness. F3-A3 M3 and F3-D4 M6 for slight increase in speed for the M6. Compare the two 4ths F3-A#3 and A3-D4 for similarity. You also have two CMT: F#3-A#3 and A#3-D4

Now, you go "down a 5th" to G3. Mark it. You see that it forms a m3 with A#3. You can compare the two m3's, F#3-A3 and G3-A#3 for evenness. You can also compare the two 5ths, F#3-C#4 and G3-D4 for similarity.

When you go, "up a 3rd" again to B3, you will have 3 chromatic M3's to compare for evenness and three 4ths to compare for similarity plus the test note D3 for the 4th that you are tuning.

Going "up a 3rd" again to D#4 provides more chromatic M3's and more 4ths plus two CMT's: G3-B3 and B3-D#4.

The last "down a 5th" then becomes very easy because the last three notes you tune, G#3, C4 and E4 will have many possibilities for checks that you will easily see.

You may often find at the end of the sequence that there is very little if anything to correct if you correct as you go. Whenever something won't work, go back to the previous step and review it. Remember that you can make any interval wider or narrower by moving both notes slightly, not just one.

The reason why any temperament sequence does not end up with correct results is because of repeated and/or cumulative error. If you any note from one that is not quite correct, then you have carried the error over to the next note. If you also tune that note incorrectly, you have compounded the error. That is the reason why results can have 4ths and 5ths that sound "kinda, sorta, pretty even" but the M3's and M6's are uneven. Other typical erroneous results are that M3's and M6's sound pretty good but 4ths & 5ths are uneven, some sounding "better" than others.

You can also get the "wolf" dilemma: everything sounds pretty good but there is just this one obvious problem that you cannot resolve. The key to not having those problems is to be as sure as you can that each new note is correct as you go. As you saw when we were working on the Yamaha, although the initial chain of CM3's is usually quite reliable, if you can't get the next two CMT's (F#3-A#3 and A#3-D4) to fit with them, then it is a clue to re-examine the initial set of CMT's.

It is always possible for any note you tune to change a small amount without you being aware of it. A change of just a half cent will throw off those very fine checks you are doing. That is a distinct possibility with the initial set of CMT's. What you thought was 100% reliable can end up not being reliable at all of one of those notes changes even a very small amount. Therefore, good pin setting and test blows for stability are important with each string you tune.



Edited by Bill Bremmer RPT (09/02/14 07:08 AM)
Edit Reason: slight error
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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