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#2322752 - 09/01/14 04:49 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Jean,

Maybe A-443 should go to try to help the guy in Denmark. He has been pleading for it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2322754 - 09/01/14 04:55 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Aw come on Bill. Give A443 a chance. I believe in you A443.

And let's not forget what is being suggested here. A professional technician has just offered to spend a week with a 17 year old beginning piano tuner. Gone are the days when apprentices could learn in factories and get paid doing it.

Whether or not A443 can improve that piano or not, is not the question, and is not even being suggested. A443 has offered free training. No matter what happens, Lucas wins.

Anyone who tries to interfere with this process should ask themselves why they are so against it.


I never said I was against it but A-443 specifically said he could make the Kawai at the tech college sound better and wanted to show how he would do it. I just told him what the obstacles would be, not that he shouldn't do it.

If A-443 wants to go to Lucas' school to help him, he cannot do that during school hours. He has to do it after those and then he has to do it when the piano he wants to work on is not being used by some after school activity or the room where it is will not be in use. He will also have to go through a background check just as I did just to be permitted on the school grounds.

I had to work with all of those constraints and limitations and so would anybody else.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2322772 - 09/01/14 05:42 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Oh by the way, there is a Kawai grand (RX-5, I believe) at Lucas' school but before anybody does anything with it at all, the accumulated dust of years of "I only clean them if I am asked to do it and I charge for that!" will be there for you to muck through. If you blow the dust out of that one, it will look like this: (!!!)



Bring your fallout mask!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2322774 - 09/01/14 05:49 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
That Tooner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 88
Loc: Janesville WI
I thinks it's an RX-6. Bigger.
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2322785 - 09/01/14 06:25 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Bill Bremmer RPT, you've been careless with your words and your accusations--it's a distasteful habit that has followed you for years. You were given the opportunity to drop it, and you chose to continue. Please learn from that mistake.

Do you still want to challenge me and my statements (i.e., the Kawai tuning quality)? OR, do you want to stop the insults and rants, forevermore? It is your choice, but you don't get to do both. Drop it now, or play the end-game; it is your choice.

I understand you weren't expecting this to get real--as most anonymous people on the net aren't--but I am, and I am not going anywhere. Know this about me now: whenever I write/speak, I am able, willing, and ready to backup my statements--no matter the cost or the time involved. My thoughts/words are the most valuable thing I posses.

You implied no one could do better on that Kawai, and I disagree. I understand the piano has limitations, but I also know what I am capable of accomplishing with that kind of situation. We can leave it at that. But, then you forfeit the right to further insults and personal attacks. That needs stop now. OK? It's up to you. Please take your time, relax, and understand that no response is necessary. If you still want to challenge my existence, I will be at the ready--know that with all certainty.

Bill Bremmer RPT, I've read your writings for over a decade now, and have quietly had a tremendous amount of respect for what you were doing--the same too, BTW, goes for Ed Foote and many of the others. I am one of your biggest fans; it is a shame you didn't get the chance to know that before you went off on your rampage. There is no reason for you to feel threatened; I am not one of your enemies. Please reconsider your approach, forget this ever happened, and let's start anew.

3hearts
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2322817 - 09/01/14 07:33 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I like that but if you are tuning wide 4:2 narrow 6:3, it helps to understand the m7b5 equality. (I have already shown a proof of this equality based on the stated octave size and the 3/6 equality).

After the CM3's, tuning F#3 using A3C#4 < F#3A3 < C#4F4 can be understood as
A3C#4 < C4E4 < C#4F4 (F#3A3=C4E4, m7b5 equality)

It is good to realize that F#3A3 does not bisect the CM3's, but I believe Bill referred to that briefly.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2322864 - 09/01/14 09:45 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I like that but if you are tuning wide 4:2 narrow 6:3, it helps to understand the m7b5 equality. (I have already shown a proof of this equality based on the stated octave size and the 3/6 equality).

After the CM3's, tuning F#3 using A3C#4 < F#3A3 < C#4F4 can be understood as
A3C#4 < C4E4 < C#4F4 (F#3A3=C4E4, m7b5 equality)

It is good to realize that F#3A3 does not bisect the CM3's, but I believe Bill referred to that briefly.


Thanks Mark,

That is good information. To tell you the truth, I did not really know exactly how fast the F#3-A3 m3 beats theoretically until very recently and it of course is affected by inharmonicity and octave size.

For example, in another thread by Mark R., he talks about the difficulty of a console sized piano that has wound strings in the low tenor. If that affects the beating of M3's then it certainly does of m3's too.

A lot of ET tuning has to do with similarity rather than strictly equal beating. Many piano technicians will say that they do not use m3's because they "cannot hear them". However, there is no reason why they should not be able to hear them if they can hear M3's. Minor 3rds are most useful from C3 to C4.

For any Rapidly Beating Interval (RBI), there is a point at which they become indiscernible simply because they beat so rapidly that the beats become an indiscernible blur. Some technicians can discern beyond what others can, to be sure.

In the articles I have written, I have spoken of the "limit of discernibility". The F4-A4 M3, for example, I consider to be "at or near the limit of discernibility". We don't usually listen to chromatic M3's in that area for that reason. We drop to M10's to cut the speed in half.

However, when constructing the initial set of CM3's, that "buzz" of some 14 beats per second is critical to proving that the three Contiguous Major Thirds (CMT) below it are correct. I used to think that the speed of the F#3-A3 m3 was very similar to the F3-A4 M3 but recently, I have been told that it lies somewhere between the C#4-F4 and F4-A4 M3's.

In any case, it is a Very Rapidly Beating Interval (VRIB). To the aural tuner (especially a beginner), the distinction between 12, 13 or 14 beats per second may not be very discernible at all. What one may well hear, however, it that the interval beats too gently and that would mean that the F#3 is too flat. It would also mean that the F#3-C#4 5th sounds a little too pure. It would also reveal that the test for the 5th, the F#3-A3 m3 and A3-C#4 M3 sound too similar.

If the F#3-C#4 5th is too tempered, the F#3-A3 m3 would be an indiscernible blur and sound "sour". There would be too much difference in the 5th test, the 5th itself would have too prominent of a beat and the F#3-A3 m3 would beat even more rapidly than the F4-A4 M3. It is all about finding that balance.

In the last of his writings, Professor Owen Jorgensen stressed the value of the m3's in Octave 3. Indeed, for the Master Tuning Committee of a PTG Tuning Exam piano, those m3's would be intensely scrutinized. Correction of those intervals can result in the very finest aural tuning corrections possible.

Therefore, as I had stated in a post to Lucas earlier today and as I coached him in his two very first attempts at aural ET last week, the "proof and correction as you go" is critical and will most often result in a temperament that is either flawless or nearly flawless once it is completed.

Yes, I have read the statement that "sequences are over rated". I do not agree. There certainly are some that check and balance better than others. I am not saying that what I came up with is the one and only best but when thinking this whole thing through 11 years ago, it is what I came up with.

I have since discovered many more checking possibilities with it than I first realized back then. The three ways to confirm that the F#3-A3 m3 is correct is an example of that. The whole thing is a fascinating as a game of chess.

I can write out all of the possibilities for each new note tuned as I did in a post earlier today for Lucas, leaving out the last several that there are to be left to the imagination. However, for a beginning student, being told as one is to "read through and understand everything in this manual before attempting to operate this device", the manual would leave most people bug-eyed after the first few paragraphs.

The keyboard chart idea that I came up with may work very well, at least for some people. Again, find out what works for you, is key. I have seen so many people, both examinees and assisting RPT's come out of a tuning exam aural evaluation session saying things like, "I never knew there could be so many checks!" Also, "I am now getting a far clearer picture of how all of the intervals affect each other".

Indeed they do. In ET or any temperament for that matter, what you give to one, you take away from the other. I was amazed at myself, in fact, when I gave a demonstration of this at the February meeting of the Madison PTG Chapter. I almost never tune ET and when I do, I use the ET via Marpurg because I like the effect of the equalized 4ths & 5ths.

However, form a cold start (and it was plenty cold that night), I set up the temperament note by note. It was a short scaled, Yamaha C2. When I made my F3-A3 M3 estimate, it must have luckily been a little slower than 7 beats per second because the estimate I made turned out to be spot on. I used a 4:2 octave for A3-A4. Also best for that kind of piano and probably for any PTG exam piano.

I got my initial CMT's on first attempt. I was lucky as I explained to the group. I explained what I would have done if I had not been. I tuned that first F#3-C#4 5th and proved that it fell right in where it belonged. I proceeded through the sequence, proving each new note as I went, listening for similarities and small differences where they applied. When I got to the end of the sequence, I played all intervals and there was not a single incident of any one that revealed itself as being out of place.

It was the kind of temperament that I know from experience would score a perfect 100 on a PTG exam. Just imagine how quick and proficient I would be with it if I did that with every piano I tune! But the fact that I rarely do it actually proves how well it works.

I was glad to see that Mark R. recently has found value in it.


Edited by Bill Bremmer RPT (09/02/14 07:03 AM)
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2322963 - 09/02/14 04:53 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
When you go, "up a 3rd" again to B3, you will have 3 chromatic M3's to compare for evenness and three 4ths to compare for similarity plus the test note D#3 for the 4th that you are tuning.


Bill,

Thanks for the elaborate write-up. I know how easily a slip of the finger can occur, so I wanted to point out, also for Lukas's sake, that the abovementioned test note should read D3, not D#3.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2322989 - 09/02/14 07:09 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Mark R.]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3322
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
When you go, "up a 3rd" again to B3, you will have 3 chromatic M3's to compare for evenness and three 4ths to compare for similarity plus the test note D#3 for the 4th that you are tuning.


Bill,

Thanks for the elaborate write-up. I know how easily a slip of the finger can occur, so I wanted to point out, also for Lukas's sake, that the abovementioned test note should read D3, not D#3.


Thanks Mark, I fixed it.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2323137 - 09/02/14 01:22 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Hey A-443,

Bill has challenged you and you accepted it.

Now there is no way going back. Stand by with your word and go for it.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2323151 - 09/02/14 02:07 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Yes, Hakki, as a matter of principal, I stand by what I wrote: I am prepared to go to Wisconsin in January to work on that piano--at no cost to the college--and produce a video for the PW forum. Anyone in the area is welcome to shadow me while I work. But, the main point was: I believe that the sound of the tuning could, in fact, be improved upon by someone with experience in that kind of situation (i.e, without string replacement). Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not: the forum will never know unless I go there and do it.

However, I can't do anything without the necessary contact information and the proper introduction. Without knowing which college, whom to contact, and the right permission, there is nothing that I can do about it. It would have to be a team effort.

The matter seems to have been resolved, so we should probably let it rest for now. It is on my schedule, and January is a long ways away. If the issue were to flare-up again between now and then, I remain willing to go prove the point: professional results are a matter of the right kind of experience, observation, and refinement in approach.

Don't worry Hakki, I'm challenged with nearly every post I write--there will be other opportunities to prove that I exist and that what I write about is real!
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2323154 - 09/02/14 02:14 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Thanks A443.

I will be following and reminding probably by December!!
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2323163 - 09/02/14 02:27 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 740
Loc: England
A443 : it's quite easy to demonstrate that you are not merely someone pretending to be something that some believe you are not. Much like RxD (who doesn't seem to be about lately ... could you perhaps be one and the same ?), simply step out from behind your veil.

Perhaps that seems too easy though, almost as though you prefer the intrigue and associated following.

Your kind offer should be taken up, but I doubt it will ever happen, else your cover would become blown.

Roll on January .... best wishes John
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2323187 - 09/02/14 03:13 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Dear Johnkie, my name demonstrates nothing, to no one--that would be akin to advertising and commercialism. I have no need to advertise myself.

I would rather people learn to think on their own about piano technology issues, and not simply take my word for it--because of who I am. I see people bow down to others because of who they work for, not because of what they are actually saying. That is ridiculous, and ultimately part of the problem (re:someone at Steinway told me to beat on the strings, so it must be a great idea). LOL...no!!!

I can write and I can demonstrate more often (i.e., make more videos). The addition of my name in every post changes nothing. If you don't know who I am, then honestly, you don't need to know.

Just like the rest of the piano-lov'n posters here: I have the right to maintain whatever level of privacy I wish on a open internet forum.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2323189 - 09/02/14 03:16 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Oh, BTW, I am not RxD. I'm sure the moderators could confirm via IP, and other means, if it is really that important to you. They know exactly who I am, as do a number of other piano industry insiders.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2323203 - 09/02/14 03:41 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: A454.7]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 860
Loc: Seattle
[quote=A443]
Don't worry Hakki, I'm challenged with nearly every post I write--there will be other opportunities to prove that I exist and that what I write about is real![/quote]

I don't think it was ever a question of whether or not "you" exist. Obviously the words don't appear out of thin air. Its more about whether your principles and opinions are actually valid, or just a bunch of hot air. There's usually enough on this forum to make enough air popped popcorn to feed several 3rd world countries.

I'm not sure why you have to go out to the mid-west to prove a point. I think starting by demonstrating in a series of videos all of your different flavors of unison tuning (from dead to tempered) and coloring would be reasonable.

I think trying to take cheap shots at Bill via his young protege is beneath you, however.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional

Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2323209 - 09/02/14 03:52 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Arghhhh! This is enough!!

I am not a tuner, nor a tech, nor a professional pianist.

But that Kawai did not sound professional at all.

Yes there might be reasons that are related to the current situation of the piano itself. I don't know.

But that is what it is at the end of the day. It was not a perfect tuning.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2323230 - 09/02/14 04:30 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
SMHaley, you are hilarious: re:demonstrating what a cheap-shot actually is--which you've demonstrated is something very difficult for you pass-up! Stop trying to be a bully; you're being predictable, and that's boring!

If you truly believe that my comment is a cheap-shot, at either, then you should probably understand right now that my future posts will not be any different (re:"That Tooner is making great progress, but the Kawai grand is not a passable/professional-sounding tuning--that is going to take some more time.").

If you, or anyone else, thinks that the Kawai was a professional sounding tuning, then that says more about you, than it does me. Rehashing this fact accomplishes nothing: let's drop it, and move on.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2323239 - 09/02/14 04:42 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
That Tooner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 88
Loc: Janesville WI
Hakki, is there such a thing as a "perfect tuning"?
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2323240 - 09/02/14 04:48 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: SMHaley]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
[quote=SMHaley]I think trying to take cheap shots at Bill via his young protege is beneath you, however.[/quote]

Conversely, SMHaley, if A443's comment is nothing more than a cheap shot at Bill, are you endorsing Bill's statement that his protege's tuning was "totally professional sounding" and "a tuning that any professional pianist would accept and use for virtually any recording venue"? (It appears that Bill may have removed this latter wording, as I can't find it right now, but this is what A443 was expressly referring to: see post no. 2321794.) It's not an idle question on my part. I'm genuinely interested in the matter, because I continually measure my own hearing and tunings against what I read, see and hear on these forums and on youtube.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2323248 - 09/02/14 04:58 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: That Tooner]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
[quote=That Tooner]Hakki, is there such a thing as a "perfect tuning"?[/quote]

Lucas, you are doing really great!!

I really appreciate and congratulate you and Bill Bremmer for what you have achieved in such a short time.

That is really outstanding.

The thread is also awesome and a goldmine.
One of the most valuable threads I have yet to see on this forum.

Yes you are right, "perfect" is not the correct word. Thanks for correcting that. Just interpret it as meaning that the Kawai tuning was not as good as the Yamaha tuning.

I am sure on a second or later tuning you will produce refined results with that Kawai, as Andy has suggested while talking about something "organic" you discover each time you tune a piano.

I wish you the best with your endeavors on such a high skilled profession.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2323265 - 09/02/14 05:21 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Does anyone remember that was Lucas' FIRST solo tuning by EAR?

And, Papa Bill has every right to be the gloating father !!!

(sorry about the caps - the text enhancements aren't working - I would have used bold or italics.)
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2323274 - 09/02/14 05:31 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Does anyone remember that was Lucas' FIRST solo tuning by EAR?

And, Papa Bill has every right to be the gloating father !!!

(sorry about the caps - the text enhancements aren't working - I would have used bold or italics.)


They just fixed it.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2323300 - 09/02/14 06:30 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Marty,

My son is 5 years old, I'll be the first to admit to subjectivity in a gloating Papa. (Heck, after seeing me tune 2 or 3 times, he's telling me which unisons on my piano are out of tune when I play...)

No-one, least of all A443, is disputing that Lukas is making fantastic progress.

But that wasn't what sparked the confrontation, as I'm sure you will remember. It matters not whether it was Lukas's first, tenth, hundredth of thousandth tuning. If Bill described it as professional-sounding and suitable for most any recording venue, and someone like A443 queried this, then it's the tuning that's at issue - not the tuner.

Yes? No?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2323320 - 09/02/14 07:38 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1814
Loc: London, England
From time to time we come across people who take to tuning pianos in all it's aspects immediately. Some with guidance, others entirely self taught. I have come across 2-3 in my 50 years in the business. Possibly more than my fair share.
I cannot claim to have "taught" any of them other than giving or finding them employment and experience and pointing them in the direction of colleagues who can give them what they need next and how to specifically tune for different employers.

While none of their first tunings were worthy of concert hall or recording studio, I have known one in particular who was doing fine concert and international broadcasting work for major artists within a few months of first touching a tuning lever.

Should Lucas choose to pursue a career in tuning, the whole world is open to him. There will always be room at the top.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2323344 - 09/02/14 09:02 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Hakki]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 860
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Arghhhh! This is enough!!

I am not a tuner, nor a tech, nor a professional pianist.

But that Kawai did not sound professional at all.

Yes there might be reasons that are related to the current situation of the piano itself. I don't know.

But that is what it is at the end of the day. It was not a perfect tuning.


Hakki, you are probably the last person who should be commenting on what a Kawai should sound like. Since it seems you have missed the point let me remind you. It was about the ability of a young man just starting to learn how to tune aurally and doing a commendable job. A great deal better than what you have demonstrated to this forum I will add.
_________________________
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Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2323349 - 09/02/14 09:18 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: A454.7]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 860
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: A443
SMHaley, you are hilarious: re:demonstrating what a cheap-shot actually is--which you've demonstrated is something very difficult for you pass-up! Stop trying to be a bully; you're being predictable, and that's boring!

If you truly believe that my comment is a cheap-shot, at either, then you should probably understand right now that my future posts will not be any different (re:"That Tooner is making great progress, but the Kawai grand is not a passable/professional-sounding tuning--that is going to take some more time.").

If you, or anyone else, thinks that the Kawai was a professional sounding tuning, then that says more about you, than it does me. Rehashing this fact accomplishes nothing: let's drop it, and move on.


A443, I have become quite convinced that really your purpose here is nothing more than to be adversarial, contentious, and you just like "hearing" yourself talk. So rather than bragging about your cosmic abilities and how you could have done better, why not offer something of use to the young man, who I will bet, has more potential ability at his age then you did. He's not yet ready for full concert prep, and I think Bill knows that. But for some reason you only seem to be about one thing, revealing a certain deficiency in your abilities as well.

You always gloat about how you want to teach people these "secrets" you've picked up, but when the opportunity to make such a profound impact is staring you in the face the most you can do is try to chop down the kid's mentor. In my view it makes you a poor instructor.


Edited by casinitaly (09/03/14 02:33 AM)
Edit Reason: offensive remark removed
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional

Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2323354 - 09/02/14 09:27 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
SMHaley, why do you insist on making things so personal?

Hakki wrote: "I am not a tuner, nor a tech, nor a professional pianist." And you attack with: "It was about the ability of a young man just starting to learn how to tune aurally and doing a commendable job. A great deal better than what you have demonstrated to this forum I will add." Why would you write something like that?!? You are being insulting, and purposefully misrepresenting the issue. Please, demonstrate some humanity.

NONE of this has ever been about a young man doing a commendable job; a "commendable job" is not the issue. His first solo tuning of a grand was described as professional-sounding and suitable for most any recording venue. <----that is the one and only issue that I, and a few others, took issue with.

The issues was with the characterisation of the tuning; it has nothing to do with the tuner, nor his teacher. Did you bother to read Mark R. post above?

Perhaps it is time to drop this entirely, and let Bill Bremmer RPT go on doing his thing? The point has been well made, documented, and defended.

...[moving on].
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2323375 - 09/02/14 09:52 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
That Tooner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 88
Loc: Janesville WI
A443, ENOUGH!
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2323376 - 09/02/14 09:53 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: SMHaley]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
You always gloat about how you want to teach people these "secrets" you've picked up, but when the opportunity to make such a profound impact is staring you in the face the most you can do is try to chop down the kid's mentor. In my view it makes you a [censored] poor instructor.
How, exactly, has the "the kid's" mentor been chopped down? Please quote any comment, from anyone, that might even possibly suggest something like that.

On what basis do you have to critique my instructing? You have nothing to base that comment on. Right? Have you enrolled in any of my university courses, attended any of my lectures, taken any private lessons with me, or worked as one of my assistants before? Do you know ANYTHING about my approach to teaching or my methodology? If not, then you've overstep the boundaries of common decency, in another failed attempt to take another cheap-shot; please, keep yourself in-check.

Everyone has repeatedly said that both That Tooner and Bill Bremmer RPT are doing an excellent job. The Kawai tuning, however, did not represent a professional sounding tuning--that will come with more time and experience.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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