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#2323395 - 09/02/14 10:30 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: A454.7]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: A443
The Kawai tuning, however, did not represent a professional sounding tuning--that will come with more experience.

Can you point out specific issues, with video time stamps, where the tuning is defective and why in your opinion? I hear no defects.

I think that would be more productive than posting a video of Kana with her dog. How do we know you really tuned her piano? I guess I could call her when I'm in the area in October. (Just kidding, though I may actually do that.)

Kees

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#2323428 - 09/02/14 11:55 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Interesting that we have not identified exactly what a professional recording level tuning is.

Like the time I was called back and the singer took me to task on the speeds of my M6's in the bass!

I've tuned for high level concerts and recording sessions, and for me personally, recording sessions are definitely more stressful and demanding.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2323448 - 09/03/14 01:10 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: DoelKees]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
I think that would be more productive than posting a video of Kana with her dog. How do we know you really tuned her piano? I guess I could call her when I'm in the area in October. (Just kidding, though I may actually do that.)
Please do--by all means--try your best to give her a call! Do you happen to have the number? [just kidding, she's not going to take your call--it's nothing personal].

Remember the hammer-shank tone video I posted...the one where I was whacking on the hammer heads to demonstrate the tonal inconsistencies? You should be able to note that it is the same piano. Care to guess how many custom-ordered Bösendorfer 290s in satin walnut there are in existence? whome
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2323455 - 09/03/14 01:35 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: A454.7]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
I think that would be more productive than posting a video of Kana with her dog. How do we know you really tuned her piano? I guess I could call her when I'm in the area in October. (Just kidding, though I may actually do that.)
Please do--by all means--try your best to give her a call! Do you happen to have the number? [just kidding, she's not going to take your call--it's nothing personal].

Remember the hammer-shank tone video I posted...the one where I was whacking on the hammer heads to demonstrate the tonal inconsistencies? You should be able to note that it is the same piano. Care to guess how many custom-ordered Bösendorfer 290s in satin walnut there are in existence? whome

You omitted the core: can you please identify the errors?

I assure you I have ways of find people if I want to. Of course if that dog-girl is really you she will not answer. (Kidding again...)

Kees

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#2323464 - 09/03/14 02:16 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: A454.7]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 829
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: A443
SMHaley, why do you insist on making things so personal?

Hakki wrote: "I am not a tuner, nor a tech, nor a professional pianist." And you attack with: "It was about the ability of a young man just starting to learn how to tune aurally and doing a commendable job. A great deal better than what you have demonstrated to this forum I will add." Why would you write something like that?!? You are being insulting, and purposefully misrepresenting the issue. Please, demonstrate some humanity.


My comments to/about Hakki do not concern you.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional

Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2323470 - 09/03/14 02:31 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: A454.7]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 829
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: A443
Have you enrolled in any of my university courses, attended any of my lectures, taken any private lessons with me, or worked as one of my assistants before? Do you know ANYTHING about my approach to teaching or my methodology? If not, then you've overstep the boundaries of common decency, in another failed attempt to take another cheap-shot; please, keep yourself in-check.


I would be more than tickled to see you [ahem] "teach." Which university? What classes? I'll even hire the Piano World media crew to properly capture the event. Clearly a forum isn't your strong suit. But since I strongly doubt you would reveal enough personal information about yourself to make such an observation by others possible, I won't be holding my breath. So tell me when you're next up for a seminar at PTG National and I'll most assuredly put it on my calendar. I'll even sit in the front row like a diligent student!

And, uh, since you aren't my mother... I will comment and opine as I see fit-just as you so frequently indulge yourself.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional

Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2323473 - 09/03/14 02:42 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
casinitaly Online   blank

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 5259
Loc: Italy
Enough is enough.

This thread has degenerated into something pretty pathetic and far removed from its original intention.

All of you are being given warning that these insults to each other are certainly not in compliance with the forum rules and any further personal attacks will be rewarded with time out to think about how you want to post in the future.


Let it go.
_________________________
XVIII-XXXV
Everything's too hard until you make it easy. Follow your teacher's instructions and practice wisely/much, and you'll soon wonder how you ever found it hard ;)-BobPickle
Performance anxiety: make it part of your daily routine and deal with it...Cope! zrtf90

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#2323582 - 09/03/14 09:20 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
For Lucas' sake, please let us all show the more professional side of our industry. I'm guessing he may be thinking "what have I gotten myself into?"
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2323685 - 09/03/14 01:18 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2738
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
For Lucas' sake, please let us all show the more professional side of our industry. I'm guessing he may be thinking "what have I gotten myself into?"


I have yet to see any tuner who does not badmouth another tuner.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2323755 - 09/03/14 04:40 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Hakki, then you need to look for another tuner.

They do exist.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2324309 - 09/05/14 08:03 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1819
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Best wishes to you, Lucas.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2324989 - 09/07/14 09:52 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: That Tooner]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: That Tooner
Hakki, is there such a thing as a "perfect tuning"?


Hi Lucas,

I thought your apparent retorical question deserved an answer.

IMO, it depends on what the target is meant to be, and/or on the criteria that identify what is ‘perfect’.

Our target might be customers satisfaction... if they are very happy, then the tuning is ‘perfect’, albeit that is relative to our customers ear, and true until they hear a tuning that sounds more perfect.

If you tune aurally, you may also want to target your ear, and the game might then be different.

Your ear might be very demanding and, as for your eyes, able to spot imperfections. In time, your ear gets more and more refined and perhaps increasingly demanding, and there you might have to deal with some other factors: knowledge, the opportunities you get to refine your tunings (time and pianos to work on), and will and determination, together with psycho-physical endurance (stamina?), in a way close to what an athlete, or a researcher or an explorer have to deal with, when seeking outstanding results.

We may see no reason to represent ‘perfection’ out of time, nor place. In this sense, a ‘perfect tuning’ is not exactly like a single event, it is more like a route.

My best wishes and regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2325080 - 09/07/14 03:57 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thank you very much for your advice and comments to Lucas, Alfredo. They are very much appreciated. I agree entirely with what you have said.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2327566 - 09/14/14 09:51 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Last Thursday, September 11, 2014, I went to Lucas' high school to help him clean, polish and detail the Kawai RX-3 grand that is located and used in the school's choir room. Lucas wanted to have his senior photos taken with the piano but it had never been cleaned since it had arrived there several years ago.

Even though the piano was routinely covered when not in use, it had accumulated a very significant amount of dust over the years. Because Kawai products have synthetic parts, they maintain their alignment and and flange tightness very well, so the only regulation it really needed was to set a hammer line, which only took one or two cranks of each capstan. Some Teflon powder was also applied to the knuckles.

However, to do anything at all with this piano meant that it needed to be thoroughly cleaned first. When the action was pulled, there were layers of dust on the hammer flanges. There were foreign objects in the action cavity. Dust and debris fell on the floor when the action was pulled.

Since a for-all-time photo session (which occurred today, 9-14-14) was planned, it was decided to not only remove dust but to totally detail the piano as if it were to be for sale on a piano dealer showroom floor.



The first task was to remove the lid. Kawai lid hinge pins are usually very tight which is good because it prevents rattles or vibrations and they will not come out by themselves. However, you cannot simply pull them out. These hinge pins had a plastic sheath, so they could be grabbed directly with a pair of Vice Grip pliers. If one wishes to avoid marring a hinge pin that does not have such a sheath, some buckskin or key bushing cloth can be placed between the hinge pin and the jaws of the pliers.

To remove or replace a tight lid hinge pin: First, place cushioning material such as buckskin or bushing cloth between the pin and the pliers jaws. Move the pin end outward, more or less perpendicular to the case. Re-grip the pin with the pliers. While holding the pliers with one hand, gently tap on the pliers with a hammer. This will avoid actually bending the perpendicular end of the hinge pin. The hinge pin will often come out and go back in with a few gentle taps of the hammer.

Here is a You tube video of Lucas blowing out the dust from the piano. Another student happened by who wanted to play the upright piano in the background which needs tuning but we welcomed his presence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgsZczIjerg




Lucas took many photos of how the piano looked before it was cleaned but the above show it show room fresh as he began to tune it. Scotch-Brite pads were used to polish the strings. Swiffer dry pads were worked under the strings first to remove whatever dry dust could be removed by that method. Then, a cloth and Murphy Oil Soap spray formula were used to remove the dust which continued to adhere to the surfaces. That product leaves a pleasant sheen and aroma. The keys were also cleaned with it.

The case was cleaned first with soft, cotton cloths and glass & surface cleaner. Then, all surfaces were polished with Cory high gloss polish. The plate was also cleaned and polished that way.

The following photos show the piano with a gleam to every inch of it. The choir teacher was so impressed the next morning that she left it open for all to see that day. She also decided to put a table by the side of the piano to put music and other items upon rather than piling them on the piano. People often do gain a new respect for a piano that is clean looking and well maintained. Both Lucas and the choir teacher remarked that the touch seemed significantly improved and "less heavy" with only capstan adjustment and knuckle lubrication.


_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2327584 - 09/14/14 11:31 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
I have always loved the P.D.Q. Bach Sonata for Hoover & Hammers.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2327593 - 09/15/14 12:09 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Chris Leslie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 720
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
I have always loved the P.D.Q. Bach Sonata for Hoover & Hammers.
Or perhaps the Erotica Variations, or the Missa Hilarious.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2327678 - 09/15/14 10:05 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Too late to edit but correction: that is a Kawai RX-6 grand piano. Nice instrument!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2328263 - 09/16/14 11:27 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
That Tooner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 88
Loc: Janesville WI
Today I tuned the Kawai RX-6 at my school. I tuned it with tunelab in EBVT III but also aurally verified and corrected notes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUulZ0-rea8&list=UU-QsuECzr9hD-4URcLtiJ4Q
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2328333 - 09/17/14 08:57 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I listened via Skype last evening as Lucas tuned and was quite impressed at the control he had over the tuning hammer. The solution for making the EBVT III fit the piano using an ETD is to first, tune to the calculated program, then from F#4 to F5, play the octave then the 4th and 5th below it and either sharpen or flatten the octave note being tuned so that all three intervals agree. Do the same from C3 to E3. Beyond that in either direction, the calculated program is generally sufficient. Of course, one can always check the outer octaves and adjust them if needed. Since Lucas will now be tuning this piano regularly, he entered the changes that he made into a custom program for that piano.

I said it before and I will say it again. This sounds good enough to me for virtually any professional use. It sounds better than many website recordings that artists have which I have heard. It also sounds better than some CD's I have heard. Now, while this Kawai is newer and does not have many of the issues that the 24 year old Kawai at the tech college has, Lucas could already hear the need for some voicing. It has never had anything done to it before other than attempts at tuning. During the cleaning process, I set a hammer line and lubricated the knuckles with Teflon powder and that was enough for both Lucas and the Choir teacher to remark that the touch had much improved.

Lucas already has some experience with hammer filing but that is an art in itself that does take practice. He has not yet had any instruction on hammer mating to the string. He has some experience with needling but really only with his spinet piano which takes some very aggressive pokes to tone down the brittle sound. He will need some more careful instruction before he goes poking the hammers of this fine Kawai grand.

I will also reiterate that in my opinion as an examiner of 23 years, Lucas already has sufficient skill to pass the PTG tuning exam. However, he is not yet a member and probably will not even join the organization until he finishes high school next June. So, there is no need to tell him not to try to take that exam yet. While he does know a lot of facts and information about pianos and piano technology, one first has to be a PTG member and take the written exam before either the tuning or technical exam can be attempted. I somehow doubt at this point that Lucas could get at least 80 out of the 100 questions on the written exam correctly.

All of those exams are about skill and experience. They are intended to be a measure of just that. One does not "cram" for the written exam. You either know what those questions are about or you don't. Many of the questions are worded in such a way that will expose the fact that you don't know anything about the subject if you don't. There is often a "sucker" answer that most people would choose if they don't really know the right answer. It is designed so that very few people, even seasoned professionals would get every single question correctly. Some questions may be very easy, others take some thinking but some would be very difficult for virtually everyone.

The technical exam is also very rigorous. One cannot pass it simply by studying the skills needed to pass it. Only vertical and grand action models are used rather than complete actions but one must know virtually every detail about both kinds of actions. Every adjustment that could be made on either will be required. Replace a broken hammer shank, rebush a flange, rebush a key (both to within certain tolerances for friction), replace a broken string, splice a broken string are among the skills required and there is a strict time limit for each. Each has minimum specifications. The technical exam is far from what anyone could call "easy". Even many seasoned professionals do not pass on the first attempt often because of time limits.

I have often heard mocking comments about how the tuning exam is too easy but only from people who have never taken it. I have known of many a professional piano technician who has attempted it multiple times and still not passed. No person yet in the 35 year history of the tuning exam has ever completely aced it. So, for me to say that Lucas already has sufficient skill to pass it is saying a lot for a novice. He has remarkable aptitude, stamina and determination.

Lucas will be attending the PTG Regional Seminar next week in Davenport, Iowa where he is apt to have his eyes and ears opened to many new skills and enough knowledge to make anyone's head spin.

I should comment on the choice of a Well Temperament for the school piano used for choir. It was actually Lucas' suggestion, not mine. This whole endeavor started because Lucas had become aware that the pianos at his school did not sound anything like pianos that he had heard on recordings, so he looked up the subject, bought some tuning tools and got the free trial version of Tunelab and went for it. Lucas had seen what I was saying about Reverse Well and was painfully aware that it was what all of the pianos at his school were tuned in.

Before Lucas could get the choir teacher's attention as school started, the teacher had called the same person to tune the Kawai grand. To his surprise, this time, the tuning was apparently ET. I know who that person is and anytime I had ever encountered a tuning done by that person, it was a very severe case of Reverse Well. That could only mean one thing and that is that the technician had acquired and used an ETD this time.

I asked the choir teacher if she thought that the tuning was somehow better this time and the reply was "Yes". Nevertheless, she knew the piano needed cleaning and that process alone would disturb the tuning, so she consented to have Lucas tune it again. Lucas wanted the piano to sound better than what had already been paid for so he chose to tune it in Well Temperament. So, this will be yet another example of what is being discussed on another topic (the Koval temperament).

The accompaniment for the singers will actually have what the key signature of the piece implies. Time and again, year after year and now for two and a half decades, the usual choice of a Well Temperament has had residential and institutional clients coming back for it. It just makes more musical sense for virtually any kind of music than ET does. I stand by that statement through long experience. If I had been getting the kind of reactions that other technicians warned me about, I would have gone back to ET long ago but no one ever said to me any of the things that other technicians predicted. So, as the people at Steinway say, I listen to what the artists and the people who use the pianos that I service, not what technicians say or predict would happen.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2328422 - 09/17/14 02:54 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Lucas,

Even though I'm not a professional piano technician, I think that you're on your way to great things.

I have a humble suggestion: extend your repertoire to complement Bill's technical mentoring. If you could include some baroque and classical items (even if they're simple, easy pieces!), then you might be able to captivate a larger audience with your services. I'm not trying to jump the gun, but simply trying to make a suggestion for your beginnings as a tuner. Different people like to hear different music, and some folks are rather conservative in their music tastes. Remember, it's these folks that may represent a significant market for your services - hence my suggestion. Perhaps you could post a thread in the piano forum, asking for simple-yet-effective pieces to demonstrate your tunings.

Off the top of my head, I can share the pieces that I play myself:
Prelude no. 1 from the Well-Tempered Clavier (BWV 846)
No. 1 from Schumann's "Bunte Blätter" (a beautiful, yet not-too-difficult piece - very good to test a piano's response in the melodic range, i.e. 5th octave)
The simpler pieces from Chopin's Preludes (Op. 28), e.g. no.s 4, 6, 20 and perhaps the "Raindrop", no. 15.

Others may suggest much better pieces; I just tried to suggest a starting point.

I wish you well - from what I can see and hear, you certainly have much potential! Keep going.


Edited by Mark R. (09/17/14 02:57 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2328437 - 09/17/14 03:33 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Mark R.]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 829
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Lucas,

...I think that you're on your way to great things.


I will echo the same. If I had as much guidance as Lucas does from Bill, I may be in a very different line of work right now.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional

Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2328570 - 09/17/14 11:28 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I forgot to mention one of my pet peeves about grand regulation and one which can make any grand action feel bad is left undone, no matter how well the rest of the regulation is done: The damper upstop rail adjustment!

This grand action was working fairly well, nothing really stood out as needing attention except for a simple capstan adjustment. But at one point, I noticed the "hopping dampers" and sure enough, the upstop rail allowed them to travel far beyond what the key itself would lift the dampers.

Upon investigation, it was found that there was way too much play in the damper and sostenuto pedals. That play was taken up and the adjustment nuts tightened. The damper upstop rail was lowered across the entire piano so that there was only a slight amount that any damper could be lifted beyond what key travel would cause. The damper upstop rail may, in many cases start to rise because of use of the damper pedal. In many pianos, it is nailed into place! The cushioning material may compress over time, so even a rail that was initially nailed in place may be too high.

The feeling that a too high damper upstop rail may generate could be a "slow", "heavy", ill timed effect. As I mentioned, if everything else is correct, a too high damper upstop rail will ruin it! If there are other problems, it will only make them worse!

The comment I had from Lucas in the beginning was that the action seemed "too heavy". This is a fine piano, so I never even thought in terms of trying to change key leads, geometry or anything else before I could get the dirt out of it and at the very minimum. set a decent hammer line. Knuckles always enjoy a little Teflon powder. So, seeing that the alignment was still good, that is all I actually did. The flanges could not be tightened from the rear any more than they already were and the hammer flanges could only take a slight tightening but no more. That is a testimonial to synthetic parts. They stay tight and in alignment so they most often do not need correction.

So, the sum total is that for this action to be perceived as improved and quite satisfactory, the only real adjustments that were needed were to the capstans and the damper upstop rail. A little lubrication of the knuckles may have contributed.

Any situation that a technician may come upon needs a prudent diagnosis and plan for treatment. We can't tell every customer that the piano needs to be completely rebuilt or even very extensive service. It is a matter of determining which kinds of services will be the most effective. Very often, with either a grand or vertical action, cleaning out the dirt first, perhaps some lubrication, tightening loose screws and correcting alignment, perhaps reshaping hammers and capstan adjustment does a world of good and is quite enough. Most common pianos one may find have never had anyone at all that would go even that far.

This is the reality of what most piano technicians far and wide may experience. It does no good to confuse a young technician who will probably face that kind of reality more often than not with the complete opposite end of the spectrum with pianos worth over a hundred thousand dollars and what one may do to improve them to a point that is lost for almost everyone but the most discriminating of artists.

I believe that Lucas has the potential to rise to that level but he does not have the means to go to some prestigious school or to begin working on only the finest of instruments. Anyone participating in this topic needs to keep that in mind. One step at a time. One thing at a time. Don't jump to the highest levels that can ever be achieved and tell a novice from a small town in the Midwest, USA that his work does not meet your standards, whatever those may be. Don't offer to come and show him how it is really done unless you really mean it and you can actually cope with the circumstances. It does no good.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2328608 - 09/18/14 02:22 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: SMHaley]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3980
Loc: Rockford, IL
I think this might be a good time in the thread to share this link:

Haddorff Postcard No. 6: "Piano Tuning Made Easy"

Pay attention, Lucas! wink

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2328620 - 09/18/14 03:37 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Very often, with either a grand or vertical action, cleaning out the dirt first, perhaps some lubrication, tightening loose screws and correcting alignment, perhaps reshaping hammers and capstan adjustment does a world of good and is quite enough.


Bill,

Would it be advisable to tighten the screws before cleaning the action, so that the flange mating surfaces, papering/travelling, parts alignment etc. are disturbed as little as possible by the cleaning process?
_________________________
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
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#2328857 - 09/18/14 09:15 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
That Tooner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 88
Loc: Janesville WI
Here are a few pictures of the Kawia RX-6 piano before Bill and I cleaned it.


















Edited by That Tooner (09/18/14 09:16 PM)
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2328858 - 09/18/14 09:17 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
That Tooner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 88
Loc: Janesville WI




_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2328862 - 09/18/14 09:23 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
That Tooner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 88
Loc: Janesville WI
Here is what the piano looked like after Bill and I cleaned it!






_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2328863 - 09/18/14 09:26 PM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
That Tooner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/21/14
Posts: 88
Loc: Janesville WI
Here's how the piano sounded after one typical school day. The tuning held pretty good. The piano needs to be voiced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF4N9CwwQWw
_________________________
Lucas Brookins

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#2328933 - 09/19/14 08:18 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3293
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Thanks for posting all the pics, Lucas. Mark, it depends. Scroll down through all the "dirty" pics. Would you want to try to tighten screws through all that mess? I have never seen flange papers be disturbed by cleaning. As for flange placement, one assumes that some correction will be needed. Cleaning won't interfere with that. Sometimes, merely tightening screws will make flanges squirm. A flange spacing tool bit is an essential part of a technician's tools.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2328975 - 09/19/14 11:51 AM Re: Educating Lucas [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 829
Loc: Seattle
The high use institutional piano. Aside from the dirtiness I often wonder if voicing issues get ignored because the piano is almost always played with the lid down.
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AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
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Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
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