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#2277421 - 05/17/14 11:20 AM 7-6 suspensions and similar???
Brian K. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 102
Hey all I have a question that I figured that you guys may be able to help me with. I met this really good player the other night, and I was asking him about how to make progressions sound more interesting. He told me "it's all about suspensions", and he then proceeded to show me how he applies this concept to a simple progression like "Let it Be" by the Beatles. That progression is C G Am F, but for the F he applied what he called a "7-6 suspension". Basically instead of playing just the F major chord for 2 beats, he played Fmaj7 for 1 beat followed by F6 for the second beat. This added "flavor" rather than just the major chord.

He also said that there were 3 major "suspensions" like that..not to be confused with "sus chords". Now I know what a sus chord is (sus2 and sus4), and I thought maybe he was using different terminology than what he was actually doing. However, he was referring to these little two-note additions as "suspensions", and he said there are three main ones to know.

Do you guys know what he was talking about? Thanks!
_________________________
My personal blog/website dedicated to giving answers on the age old question - how to escape the "rat race" and make a living from your passions. I now play guitar for a living at night and learn piano during the day!

http://www.musicianlifestyle.com

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#2277437 - 05/17/14 11:46 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
JazzPianoOnline Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 91
Loc: raleigh, nc
hi brian

it sounds to me like he is talking about tensions, not suspensions. tensions are 9, 11 and 13 that are added to chords to provide depth and color without altering the basic quality of the chord. in pop music and in particular, let it be, 9 is going to sound best on those chords.
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#2277518 - 05/17/14 02:57 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
Brian K. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 102
Thanks for the reply bud. Ya, I figured that he was talking about extensions, but than I asked him to clarify, and he said that he was specifically talking about the "movements" from one chord extension to the next tone...So in the example he was talking specifically about moving the "7" to the "6" (So instead of just playing an F major chord, he was replacing that with a 'moving' sound....the Fmaj7 to the F6 in place of just a 'static' F chord). That actual movement from one note to the next is what he was referring to as a "7-6 suspension".

He said something about 2 other ones as well, "9-8" and "4-3" I believe they were. I know that 9 is the same as 2, thus giving the sound of a sus2 chord, but he was adding it all the way up an octave higher and doing the movement from the "9" chord to just the regular major chord since "8" is simply the root, just an octave higher. He was referring to this whole "9-8" movement as a "suspension". I think their may be another term for it though which is why I'm asking this question. I'd like to search YouTube for this, but I don't know what to search for smile.

Thanks!


Edited by Brian K. (05/17/14 02:58 PM)
_________________________
My personal blog/website dedicated to giving answers on the age old question - how to escape the "rat race" and make a living from your passions. I now play guitar for a living at night and learn piano during the day!

http://www.musicianlifestyle.com

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#2277532 - 05/17/14 03:33 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 660
Loc: Leicester, UK
Brian,

He totally means 'suspension." Sorry JPO ... am not trying to be argumentative.

Suspensions comes from common-practice music theory - it's classical music theory - specifically counterpoint. The exemplars are Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, etc.

Wwith counterpoint is it's not about chords played one after another. It's about flowing lines that come together to make chords. If the theory you know only comes from the jazz side of the street this can be disconcerting. For some it seems arbitrary as to which way to go ... but that's a different question. Different systems get you different results. Usually the more we know the better off we are smile Usually ... smile

Bach's 371 Harmonised Chorales are about the best resource in the world to see and hear examples. The great jazz pianist Fred Hersch calls them the "Bible" of jazz voice leading.

The broader term for a suspension is a "non-chord tone." So that includes things like passing tones, appogiaturas, and there are others.

7-6, 4-3, 2-1 (sometimes called 9-8) - those are common in the ecosystem. Incidentally, in the theory system that Barry Harris teaches - he's a great jazz pianist and teacher if you haven't come across him - chords like C6 and not Cma7 are the basic sounds. In his system Cma7 resolves to C6 - as you friend described in the 7-6 example.

There are a million books you can read about harmony and voice leading and suspensions and what not. They're all going to refer to Bach Chorales for examples. It all goes perfectly well into jazz or other styles outside of classical music.

Hope this helps. I can post more examples if you'd like. I've posted quite a bit about this stuff on my blog ... just look in the tag list on the right hand side ...


Edited by Mark Polishook (05/17/14 03:34 PM)

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#2277621 - 05/17/14 07:59 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Mark Polishook]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Brian,

He totally means 'suspension." Sorry JPO ... am not trying to be argumentative.

Suspensions comes from common-practice music theory - it's classical music theory - specifically counterpoint. The exemplars are Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, etc.

Wwith counterpoint is it's not about chords played one after another. It's about flowing lines that come together to make chords. If the theory you know only comes from the jazz side of the street this can be disconcerting. For some it seems arbitrary as to which way to go ... but that's a different question. Different systems get you different results. Usually the more we know the better off we are smile Usually ... smile

Bach's 371 Harmonised Chorales are about the best resource in the world to see and hear examples. The great jazz pianist Fred Hersch calls them the "Bible" of jazz voice leading.

The broader term for a suspension is a "non-chord tone." So that includes things like passing tones, appogiaturas, and there are others.

7-6, 4-3, 2-1 (sometimes called 9-8) - those are common in the ecosystem. Incidentally, in the theory system that Barry Harris teaches - he's a great jazz pianist and teacher if you haven't come across him - chords like C6 and not Cma7 are the basic sounds. In his system Cma7 resolves to C6 - as you friend described in the 7-6 example.

There are a million books you can read about harmony and voice leading and suspensions and what not. They're all going to refer to Bach Chorales for examples. It all goes perfectly well into jazz or other styles outside of classical music.

Hope this helps. I can post more examples if you'd like. I've posted quite a bit about this stuff on my blog ... just look in the tag list on the right hand side ...


Well I couldn't disagree with you more.

Classical theory doesn't welcome the sounds that jazz and blues are requiring. Trust me I have been trained classical, and Wow, they don't want darkness. Classical wants a resolution. And you can't have both!

Classical doesn't like certain chords that cause dissonance. Trust me. The devil's chord is not welcome in classical. Like this guy says, they'd hang you for it! grin



Edited by Diane... (05/17/14 08:46 PM)
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Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#2277772 - 05/18/14 05:12 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1271
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Brian K.
He told me "it's all about suspensions", and he then proceeded to show me how he applies this concept to a simple progression like "Let it Be" by the Beatles. That progression is C G Am F, but for the F he applied what he called a "7-6 suspension". Basically instead of playing just the F major chord for 2 beats, he played Fmaj7 for 1 beat followed by F6 for the second beat. This added "flavor" rather than just the major chord.

Brian, if you listen to the original recording of Let it be, Paul McCartney is very obviously playing the two chords you cite above, namely Fma7 for 1 beat followed by F6 on the second beat - the guy you met has added nothing to the original.

And definitely not tensions, just a simple passing chord to reflect a melody movement. I suppose you could call it a suspension of a kind if you really want to, but the important thing is the 'doing it' rather than the 'naming it'. For the most part, conventions on naming are no more than fodder for pointless disputes on forums.

Focus instead on what that simple change does for the piano accompaniment and how you can extend the same idea, but not necessarily 7-6, to great effect on so many other pop song accompaniments.


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#2277852 - 05/18/14 10:47 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Mark Polishook]
Brian K. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 102
Hey thanks all for replying to this! Mark knew what I was talking about here. This guy did mention something about counterpoint in our conversation too. Yes, it was about flowing lines within a simple chord progression. This wasn't just about "let it be" that he as referring to. Rather, it was the theory behind this little chord change within a chord that he was pointing out to me.

I will definitely look into this more. Thanks everyone for the help!

Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Brian,

He totally means 'suspension." Sorry JPO ... am not trying to be argumentative.

Suspensions comes from common-practice music theory - it's classical music theory - specifically counterpoint. The exemplars are Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, etc.

Wwith counterpoint is it's not about chords played one after another. It's about flowing lines that come together to make chords. If the theory you know only comes from the jazz side of the street this can be disconcerting. For some it seems arbitrary as to which way to go ... but that's a different question. Different systems get you different results. Usually the more we know the better off we are smile Usually ... smile

Bach's 371 Harmonised Chorales are about the best resource in the world to see and hear examples. The great jazz pianist Fred Hersch calls them the "Bible" of jazz voice leading.

The broader term for a suspension is a "non-chord tone." So that includes things like passing tones, appogiaturas, and there are others.

7-6, 4-3, 2-1 (sometimes called 9-8) - those are common in the ecosystem. Incidentally, in the theory system that Barry Harris teaches - he's a great jazz pianist and teacher if you haven't come across him - chords like C6 and not Cma7 are the basic sounds. In his system Cma7 resolves to C6 - as you friend described in the 7-6 example.

There are a million books you can read about harmony and voice leading and suspensions and what not. They're all going to refer to Bach Chorales for examples. It all goes perfectly well into jazz or other styles outside of classical music.

Hope this helps. I can post more examples if you'd like. I've posted quite a bit about this stuff on my blog ... just look in the tag list on the right hand side ...
_________________________
My personal blog/website dedicated to giving answers on the age old question - how to escape the "rat race" and make a living from your passions. I now play guitar for a living at night and learn piano during the day!

http://www.musicianlifestyle.com

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#2277863 - 05/18/14 11:17 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1271
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Brian K.
This wasn't just about "let it be" that he as referring to. Rather, it was the theory behind this little chord change within a chord that he was pointing out to me.


There is no theory behind that little chord change. McCartney plays 'songwriter's piano'. As such, he puts chords together through a combination of experience, trial and error and an instinct for what 'sounds nice'.

I think you'll find it wasn't his study of counterpoint (horizontal) which led him to use the Fma7, F6 but his knowledge of chords (vertical) and a sensitivity to melody. IOW, he arrived at that chord change by marrying his chordal knowledge and experimentation with an ear for a singing melody.

In pop music, counterpoint is rarely a consideration, even more rare in blues (green onions?...house of the rising sun?).

It's chords, stupid (sorry, Brian, that's not directed at you or anyone else in this thread, in any way laugh )

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#2277899 - 05/18/14 12:53 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 660
Loc: Leicester, UK
There's a huge difference between on the one hand using the language of theory to discuss similar things heard in Bach and the Beatles, and on the other hand, saying so-and-so used the language of "this theory" or "that theory" to compose their music. Sounds like Brian's excellent friend did the the former but not the latter.

Brian - if you want more info about counterpoint just shout! ... but there's plenty of stuff out there on the web. You might be best off just looking about for it and finding what's useful. You'll know where to go with it as you find it. But, again if you need context .... smile

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#2277911 - 05/18/14 01:16 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Mark Polishook]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1271
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
There's a huge difference between on the one hand using the language of theory to discuss similar things heard in Bach and the Beatles, and on the other hand, saying so-and-so used the language of "this theory" or "that theory" to compose their music. Sounds like Brian's excellent friend did the the former but not the latter.

For the most part, pop music comes to life without any recourse to theory. I would argue that this is a characteristic of the best pop music. 'Theory', for the good it does, comes *after* the music is written (or conceived, it's not usually written!) as an attempt to codify the process of inspiration. Generally, it does a very poor job.

Not sure what you mean by 'former' and 'latter' above. 'this' and 'that' maybe?

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#2277949 - 05/18/14 02:24 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 660
Loc: Leicester, UK
Of course pop music can come to life without recourse to theory. Same with the idea that theory comes after the music is written. Of course it comes afterwards. No one in this discussion said otherwise.

Is theory, as you say, an attempt to codify the process of inspiration?" My opinion based on my professional experience teaching theory at the university level is, no, that incorrect. Although it is a common unfortunate stereotype that often seen and heard. Probably because there's a lot of jargon in theory. But every professional field has jargon.

All theory does is provide common terms and concepts. For example: "chord" and "passing chord" - terms that came up earlier in the discussion. Chords exist in music by Bach and the Beatles. An F major triad in Bach and an F major triad in the Beatles are the same exact chord. Both of them include F, A, and C.

Using the language of theory to say something about similarities in music (between Bach and Beatles for example) isn't the same as explaining what inspired the music. Inspiration is something else entirely. And it's wonderful when it comes smile

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#2277956 - 05/18/14 02:37 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Mark Polishook]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1271
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Chords exist in music by Bach and the Beatles. An F major triad in Bach and an F major triad in the Beatles are the same exact chord. Both of them include F, A, and C.

This is true but I don't see why that's of any interest. How do we make use of your observation above?

Quote:
Wwith counterpoint is it's not about chords played one after another.
I have to make a counterpoint to this:-

In pop, it's not about counterpoint, it's about chords played one after another....

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#2278053 - 05/18/14 06:26 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
I AGREE with every point dire tonic has posted!

Most good jazz/pop/blues pianist play chords! Every good pop/jazz/blues pianist I know are going on chords and not classical theory. Most don't have a classical theory background but they certain have a jazz theory & they can play on the fly.

Also, you have to understand where jazz theory comes from. It comes from the black gospel churches. That's where the authentic jazz and pop sound comes from, not classical theory. Elvis Presley, every chance he got, was visiting the BLACK GOSPEL CHURCHES in the south USA (check out Dr. John and his talks on Jazz) because Elvis Presley wanted THAT sound! & The Beatles were avid listeners of Elvis Presley. Dominos effect!

If classical pieces sounded like good Jazz/pop/blues, then the classical halls would busting at the seams, . . . and they AREN"T!

Jazz/pop/blues is all about chords! Substitutions, Maj7ths, 7ths, 9ths 13, etc.
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#2278484 - 05/19/14 05:13 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
Firefinch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/12
Posts: 162
Loc: London
every pianist plays chords Diane. unless they only have one finger.
every chord can be theorized in a jazz or classical way, infact they are both the same.
what do u mean by classical??? do you mean music by old dead people? or stuff played on violins and french horns?
are you saying that classical halls aren't bursting at the seems (where you live) is a sign that classical music (what ever you mean by that) is not good? like good? jazz pop blues?

i personally only listen to music. i dont judge about things such as when it was created (two weeks ago or 50 years ago) or how many people like it or what instruments are being used. in my ears - music is music - a human emotion be it pop, blues, jazz, opera, string quartets, piano music, heavy metal, symphonies, bla bla bla bla bla

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#2278899 - 05/20/14 03:50 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Firefinch]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: Firefinch
what do u mean by classical??? do you mean music by old dead people?


Well, I don't belong to the "all white boys club"!
Just so you know!
I'm going to "New Orleans" this summer and I can't wait. Authentic talented musicians & pianists that could teach me, ...& you a thing or two!
Did I mention the jazz & blues clubs are packed too!
Just sayin'


Edited by Diane... (05/20/14 03:51 PM)
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#2278909 - 05/20/14 04:34 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Diane...]
Firefinch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/12
Posts: 162
Loc: London
It's maybe because I'm not from that part of the world that I don't get your lingo.
U talk in riddles (in my language).
But it's nice to see that you appreciate some music.
I love New Orleans too.


P.s nice skirt


Edited by Firefinch (05/20/14 04:41 PM)

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#2278919 - 05/20/14 05:16 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Firefinch]
Ilion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 27
Loc: United States
It always surprises me when people talk about classical theory versus jazz theory. It's just theory.

Same with technique. Good pianists usually have good technique whether they're playing jazz or classical.

To the OP I'd argue as has already been said, the Let It Be chords are Fmaj7 and F6. While it might resemble a suspension, it's not. It's just two chords. But it is common to alternate the two types to give movement to the harmony. And not just in jazz or pop.

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#2278936 - 05/20/14 06:18 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Ilion]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: Ilion
It always surprises me when people talk about classical theory versus jazz theory. It's just theory.



Well here's an example where classical theory and jazz theory IS different.

Classical identification of intervals
(classical intervals we are taught to identify by ear)
Classical intervals! (This is what classical teaches)

-2 .......... 1 semitone
+2 .......... 2 semitones
-3 .......... 3 semitones
+3 .......... 4 semitones
p4 .......... 5 semitones
p5 .......... 7 semitones
-6 .......... 8 semitones
+6 .......... 9 semitones
-7........... 10 semitones
+7 .......... 11 semitones
p8 .......... 12 semintones

Do you see what is missing?????

What's missing is the pure essence of Jazz theory!

Jazz theory is different from Classical theory. I've learned both, and Classical frowns on certain theory ideas and Jazz theory welcomes it!

If you don't know that, then I feel sorry for you!
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#2278946 - 05/20/14 06:53 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Diane...]
Ilion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 27
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: Ilion
It always surprises me when people talk about classical theory versus jazz theory. It's just theory.



Well here's an example where classical theory and jazz theory IS different.

Classical identification of intervals
(classical intervals we are taught to identify by ear)
Classical intervals! (This is what classical teaches)

-2 .......... 1 semitone
+2 .......... 2 semitones
-3 .......... 3 semitones
+3 .......... 4 semitones
p4 .......... 5 semitones
p5 .......... 7 semitones
-6 .......... 8 semitones
+6 .......... 9 semitones
-7........... 10 semitones
+7 .......... 11 semitones
p8 .......... 12 semintones

Do you see what is missing?????

What's missing is the pure essence of Jazz theory!

Jazz theory is different from Classical theory. I've learned both, and Classical frowns on certain theory ideas and Jazz theory welcomes it!

If you don't know that, then I feel sorry for you!


Diane, thanks for your reply! I as much as anybody here am enthusiastic about learning new things. Could you elaborate on the difference between a minor 2nd (or semitone) in classical compared to the same interval in jazz? You said they were different but then you didn't say how.

And I appreciate your sympathy but you don't need to feel sorry for me smile

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#2278963 - 05/20/14 08:11 PM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Ilion]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: Ilion
Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: Ilion
It always surprises me when people talk about classical theory versus jazz theory. It's just theory.



Well here's an example where classical theory and jazz theory IS different.

Classical identification of intervals
(classical intervals we are taught to identify by ear)
Classical intervals! (This is what classical teaches)

-2 .......... 1 semitone
+2 .......... 2 semitones
-3 .......... 3 semitones
+3 .......... 4 semitones
p4 .......... 5 semitones
p5 .......... 7 semitones
-6 .......... 8 semitones
+6 .......... 9 semitones
-7........... 10 semitones
+7 .......... 11 semitones
p8 .......... 12 semintones

Do you see what is missing?????

What's missing is the pure essence of Jazz theory!

Jazz theory is different from Classical theory. I've learned both, and Classical frowns on certain theory ideas and Jazz theory welcomes it!

If you don't know that, then I feel sorry for you!


Diane, thanks for your reply! I as much as anybody here am enthusiastic about learning new things. Could you elaborate on the difference between a minor 2nd (or semitone) in classical compared to the same interval in jazz? You said they were different but then you didn't say how.

And I appreciate your sympathy but you don't need to feel sorry for me smile


It's what's NOT there that you should be seeing!
I don't think you see what's missing. If you honestly can't SEE it, ... I feel even MORE sorry for you!
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#2279050 - 05/21/14 12:49 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
But the point of any music theory is to explain music, not create it. Jazz and classical occupy different musical niches, but both are based on the traditional western system of harmony. Just because the theory is used for slightly different purposes in the two genres doesn't mean that the theory is fundamentally different.


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#2279051 - 05/21/14 12:50 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
Quoting theory:

"A suspension (SUS) (sometimes referred to as a syncope[7]) occurs when the harmony shifts from one chord to another, but one or more notes of the first chord (the "Preparation") are either temporarily held over into or are played again against the second chord (against which they are nonchord tones called the "Suspension") before resolving to a chord tone stepwise (the "Resolution"). Note that the whole process is called a suspension as well as the specific non-chord tone(s):


Suspension About this sound Play (help·info).
Suspensions may be further described using the number of the interval forming the suspension and its resolution; e.g. 4-3 suspension, 7-6 suspension, or 9-8 suspension. Suspensions resolve downwards; otherwise it is a retardation. A suspension must be prepared with the same note (in the same voice) using a chord tone in the preceding chord; otherwise it is an appoggiatura."
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#2279052 - 05/21/14 12:52 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Diane...]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: Ilion
It always surprises me when people talk about classical theory versus jazz theory. It's just theory.



Well here's an example where classical theory and jazz theory IS different.

Classical identification of intervals
(classical intervals we are taught to identify by ear)
Classical intervals! (This is what classical teaches)

-2 .......... 1 semitone
+2 .......... 2 semitones
-3 .......... 3 semitones
+3 .......... 4 semitones
p4 .......... 5 semitones
p5 .......... 7 semitones
-6 .......... 8 semitones
+6 .......... 9 semitones
-7........... 10 semitones
+7 .......... 11 semitones
p8 .......... 12 semintones

Do you see what is missing?????

What's missing is the pure essence of Jazz theory!

Jazz theory is different from Classical theory. I've learned both, and Classical frowns on certain theory ideas and Jazz theory welcomes it!

If you don't know that, then I feel sorry for you!


It seems your music theory studies didn't go beyond the common practice period and did not investigate Ravel, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Hindemith or 20th century composers. Classical music encompasses a broad period from roughly the 11th century to the present day. Classical, jazz, pop, folk, all draw from the western harmonic system. Music theory is a successful attempt to analyze it all.

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#2279065 - 05/21/14 02:01 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
Jazz went through a similar developmental process to classical music, only around 50-60 years later (and did it much faster). It was entirely functional in the first half of the 20thC, then - as with classical music towards the end of the 19thC - it got bored with keys and looked for some other organising principles. With some inspiration from Debussy et al, jazz latched on to what has become termed "modes" - although "impressionism" might be a better term.
Within less than a decade of that revolution, jazz experimented with a kind of loose atonalism ("free" jazz), but then mostly gave up on that and returned to a mix of tonality and modality combined with rhythmic and timbrel influences from rock ("fusion").

All jazz that I'm aware of can be described using conventional terms from either the functional lexicon (major & minor keys, chord progressions) or the modal one (quartal harmony). And usually both together, in some form.
Of course, that doesn't describe every aspect of the music - only the harmony!

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#2279066 - 05/21/14 02:02 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
Jazz theory is really just a subset of classical theory. No one has provided a single example of an harmonic concept of jazz that doesn't have precedent in classical.

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#2279067 - 05/21/14 02:09 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: rintincop]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: rintincop
Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: Ilion
It always surprises me when people talk about classical theory versus jazz theory. It's just theory.



Well here's an example where classical theory and jazz theory IS different.

Classical identification of intervals
(classical intervals we are taught to identify by ear)
Classical intervals! (This is what classical teaches)

-2 .......... 1 semitone
+2 .......... 2 semitones
-3 .......... 3 semitones
+3 .......... 4 semitones
p4 .......... 5 semitones
p5 .......... 7 semitones
-6 .......... 8 semitones
+6 .......... 9 semitones
-7........... 10 semitones
+7 .......... 11 semitones
p8 .......... 12 semintones

Do you see what is missing?????

What's missing is the pure essence of Jazz theory!

Jazz theory is different from Classical theory. I've learned both, and Classical frowns on certain theory ideas and Jazz theory welcomes it!

If you don't know that, then I feel sorry for you!


It seems your music theory studies didn't go beyond the common practice period and did not investigate Ravel, Debussy, Bartok, Stravinsky, Hindemith or 20th century composers. Classical music encompasses a broad period from roughly the 11th century to the present day. Classical, jazz, pop, folk, all draw from the western harmonic system. Music theory is a successful attempt to analyze it all.


Well I took 13 years of classical piano training and got to Grade 9 RCM (did all the theory & history, and studied all the operas.)

I just couldn't swallow any more classical pieces. I quit and went to a Jazz piano teacher & I never looked back! Best decision I ever made!
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#2279068 - 05/21/14 02:09 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
Don't assume that classical music insists that all music be viewed through a major/minor lens. No, quite to the contrary. There is plenty of classical music that does not fit into major/minor tonality, and classical theory has no problem with that. Much of the composition of the 20th century does not fit a "major/minor" tonality, not to mention all of it before the 17th century. I think that you have assumed that Common Practice Period theory (what is taught in beginner theory classes, roughly the theory from the Baroque through the Romantic) represents all of classical theory. No, not even close.

I think that you have a confused idea about what theory is and what classical music is.

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#2279069 - 05/21/14 02:15 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: rintincop]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: rintincop
Don't assume that classical music insists that all music be viewed through a major/minor lens. No, quite to the contrary. There is plenty of classical music that does not fit into major/minor tonality, and classical theory has no problem with that. Much of the composition of the 20th century does not fit a "major/minor" tonality, not to mention all of it before the 17th century. I think that you have assumed that Common Practice Period theory (what is taught in beginner theory classes, roughly the theory from the Baroque through the Romantic) represents all of classical theory. No, not even close.

I think that you have a confused idea about what theory is and what classical music is.


What's your classical training & how many years did you study Jazz?
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


Top
#2279071 - 05/21/14 02:26 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: Brian K.]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
There are not two theories. Really, there is a large Venn diagram of classical theory and many sub-theories that overlap in various ways. If you're analyzing Bach, you use different principles than Palestrina. Mozart need some new analysis techniques, as did Beethoven, Chopin, Stauss, Wagner, Mahler, Bartok, Ravel, Stravinsky, Penderecki, Part, Reich, Cage, etc. Jazz is just another sub-category.

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#2279074 - 05/21/14 02:31 AM Re: 7-6 suspensions and similar??? [Re: rintincop]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: rintincop
Only in the common practice period do all chords have to be "functional"...
You didn't answer my question!

What's your classical background and how many years did you study Jazz???
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


Top
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