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How does the Kurzweil manage multiple levels of layering (up to 16?) with only 64 polyphony? Is this 64 per something?
I am currently considering the Korg SP280 and the Kurzweil SP4-7. So far I have discounted everything else, mostly for not liking the piano sounds, especially the Yamaha, with its sounds that are so pure, they sound antiseptic to me. I like a much grittier sounding piano, one with some complexity in the sounds.
I am looking for a compact and light weight keyboard for practicing on while I am reworking my acoustic piano, see below in my sig line. SP280 should have been disqualified for size, but the list was getting too small. Roland F20 had good sound, but was too bare bones. Other Rolands are too expensive or too heavy/bulky. Difficult to judge the Casio PX-350 because of the poor speakers, but the acoustic guitar, which I really want, was unrecognizable, hence a good prospect will likely be checked off my list.
But getting to hear the Kurzweil is pretty much impossible here in Arizona. If any one knows a way to hear a Kurzweil, even if a different model, I would appreciate it. I travel on occasion to the Los Angeles area, and maybe I can find one to listen to there (and yes, I know it doesn't have speakers, but that is less of a compromise than a disappointing piano sound.
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... only 64 note polyphony?
Are you placing two by fours over the keys ... ?
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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I have the SP4-7, and bought it by only listening to the demos on the Kurz site. Have you listened to them? There are also newer downloads on the site, along with an OS upgrade, unless it is now included in the unit. One thing to be aware of is the "semi wighted" action of the SP4-7. I gig with one above my C2, but I do not find it a particularly great action for straight piano playing. Since I am not playing too much piano on this gig, its not a big deal, but for straight piano I would need something else. I bought it because of the 76 note option as a do all keyboard in a rock/blues situation. I am not averse to the ap sounds in it however and am very happy with the other capabilities of it. Hope this helps.
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... only 64 note polyphony?
Are you placing two by fours over the keys ... ? If you never use the pedal, this is not an issue. But if one is learning to play piano, they will use the piano. Also layering piano with strings or a pad will cause someone to max out a 64-note polyphony instrument. It's not the end of the world, but can be annoying if you're looking to buy for the long term.
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These answers seem to be missing the premise of the question, which is not about piano playing polyphony, but about polyphony when layering 16 sounds. The answer is, first, yes, you could layer up to 16 sounds and possibly play as many as 4 notes at a time, but really, that's not very useful, it is unlikely you'll ever want 16 sounds under each key. The more useful purpose of being able to simultaneously assign 16 sounds isn't to layer them all, but rather to employ them in various combinations of layers, splits, and/or sequences. 64 notes of polyphony can go a long way even when sequencing 16 different sounds simultaneously... i.e. i you're using orchestral instruments, most of them are only used to play one note at a time anyway.
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These answers seem to be missing the premise of the question, which is not about piano playing polyphony, but about polyphony when layering 16 sounds. The answer is, first, yes, you could layer up to 16 sounds and possibly play as many as 4 notes at a time, but really, that's not very useful, it is unlikely you'll ever want 16 sounds under each key. The more useful purpose of being able to simultaneously assign 16 sounds isn't to layer them all, but rather to employ them in various combinations of layers, splits, and/or sequences. 64 notes of polyphony can go a long way even when sequencing 16 different sounds simultaneously... i.e. i you're using orchestral instruments, most of them are only used to play one note at a time anyway. You're right...it's all about what is playing simultaneously, and if you do have say 16 voices layered, they probably aren't all playing at the same time. If so, you will need something that can handle more.
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Quite right anotherscott. I guess I zeroed in on the OP's desire to use the SP4-7 as a replacement for an acoustic under repair/restoration and its suitability as it relates to my experiences with it.
Last edited by Michael Wright; 05/18/14 09:20 PM. Reason: clarifcation
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Well, if I layer 3 or 4 instruments and don't feed them in at different times thru MIDI, I think they would all be playing simultaneously, and 64 is pretty marginal. So, this sounds like I just might want to get the Korg SP280 (120 polyphony, 2 layers)for now, and some time down the way, maybe when I am ready for a new keyboard, the technology will have improved the Kurzweil and/or I'll want an 88 key version in the same make or another, and I may, by then, be ready for something more serious. I am pretty early in learning piano, and know almost nothing about MIDI yet. Thanks all for the help,
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Well, if I layer 3 or 4 instruments and don't feed them in at different times thru MIDI, I think they would all be playing simultaneously, and 64 is pretty marginal. Can you give an example of a time you'd want to layer 3 or 4 sounds simultaneously (i.e. what sounds you might choose to layer)? For the times that you do want to do that, you almost certainly wouldn't use a sustain pedal, so again, polyphony of 64 could still take you a long way. So, this sounds like I just might want to get the Korg SP280 (120 polyphony, 2 layers)for now Of course then if you *ever* need to layer 3 or 4 sounds, you can't do it. But getting past your initial question about polyphony, if you're choosing a board primarily as a piano substitute, I would agree that the SP280 is much better. Not because of the polyphony, which is a subtle difference you may never notice, but because of the action, which is a big difference you'll notice constantly.
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Also layering piano with strings or a pad will cause someone to max out a 64-note polyphony instrument. Even that is pretty hard to do. If you're layering strings/pad over piano, you generally need to be sparing in your use of sustain pedal. Since those tones don't fade the way piano notes do, it can quickly become a wall of mush. I've never run into a polyphony issue layering piano and strings on a board with 64-note polyphony. It was pretty rare even when I was doing it on a board with 32-note polyphony.
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I don't really know that I would want to use more than 2 layers (instruments), but getting the Kurzweil was sort of the planning ahead kind of thing, but biting off too much may be a bad idea, because I may never get to the point of needing all that it can do.
But let me run the numbers just to see if I have some misconceptions.
According to the Korg manual, the piano uses 3 oscillators and therefore 3 of the polyphony gets used up while playing a piano note. The classical choir uses 3 oscillators, and that would use up 3 more of the polyphony if I played these 2 sounds by layering. I have 10 fingers so could conceivably be playing 10 keys one time, so that is 10 x 6= 60. Since the keyboard is stereo, that doubles the number of polyphony required. So, now we are at 120, and the Korg has 128 polyphony, and I am OK there. But if the Kurzweil had the same requirement, 3 for piano and 3 for choir, it only has 64 polyphony.
Am I missing something? And this does not require sustain to be in effect, that would make things even worse.
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I don't really know that I would want to use more than 2 layers (instruments), but getting the Kurzweil was sort of the planning ahead kind of thing, but biting off too much may be a bad idea, because I may never get to the point of needing all that it can do.
But let me run the numbers just to see if I have some misconceptions.
According to the Korg manual, the piano uses 3 oscillators and therefore 3 of the polyphony gets used up while playing a piano note. The classical choir uses 3 oscillators, and that would use up 3 more of the polyphony if I played these 2 sounds by layering. I have 10 fingers so could conceivably be playing 10 keys one time, so that is 10 x 6= 60. Since the keyboard is stereo, that doubles the number of polyphony required. So, now we are at 120, and the Korg has 128 polyphony, and I am OK there. But if the Kurzweil had the same requirement, 3 for piano and 3 for choir, it only has 64 polyphony.
Am I missing something? And this does not require sustain to be in effect, that would make things even worse. It is my understanding that when they use the word "polyphony" that applies to each sound patch. So one note played on a piano sound is one not 3. If you layer a piano with an e-piano sound, then you have 2 for each note played. If you layer 16 voices, you have 16 for each note played. And of course, in piano you usually play with more than one note at a time. While most of use don't play more than 10 notes simultaneously, there is the pedal to consider, since that carries over the note and allows you to add more notes. Something with lots of pedal and lots of notes can easily overpower 64-note polyphony. However, the worst that happens is the oldest note in a damper gets cut off a bit early. You may not even notice it on a piano sound, but with strings or pad it will be more clearly heard. So unless you are layering or using lots of pedal with sustained voices, I think focusing on 64-note polyphony is not necessarily applicable to your situation. We like to buy the latest and greatest, and it's easy to just look at the stats on the spec sheet for these things and make decisions that way. However, it comes down to the feel, the sound, and your needs far more than it comes down to individual stats. Unfortunately, without getting to actually play a piano for yourself, there's very little else you can base a decision on. Why did you choose Kurzweil? From your OP it seems you wanted a practice instrument to sub for your acoustic piano while it's being worked on. To me that means that piano feel and sound are going to be top priority above all else. Perhaps make a list of your priorities (must haves and wants) and your budget, and we can advise you as to which instruments would suit that best.
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According to the Korg manual, the piano uses 3 oscillators and therefore 3 of the polyphony gets used up while playing a piano note. The classical choir uses 3 oscillators, and that would use up 3 more of the polyphony if I played these 2 sounds by layering. I have 10 fingers so could conceivably be playing 10 keys one time, so that is 10 x 6= 60. Since the keyboard is stereo, that doubles the number of polyphony required No... the particular piano voice you are referencing (the only 3 oscillator one) is 3 oscillators per note, period, You don't double it for stereo, then it would be 6 oscillators per note. In this case, the 3 oscillators--that is, the three tones that are being produced with each keypress--are probably left, right, and (when appropriate) damper resonance (since elsewhere in the manual, you learn that the distinguishing feature of that particular piano preset is that it is the only one with damper resonance). So you don't need 120 note polyphony to cover that scenario, 60 will do. Most keyboards use 1 or 2 notes of polyphony per key strike for most of their individual sounds. Is more polyphony better? Sure. But realistically, for most live players, it's not that much of an issue. Or look at it this way: There are plenty of people using 64-note Kurzweils, including many advanced players, and you don't see tons of people complaining about hitting their polyphony limitations. Part of it is that 64 really goes a pretty long way, especially when you're not sequencing. Part of it is that Kurzweil uses their resources very well. I have used 64-note polyphony models from Kurzweil and Yamaha. It is rare that I hit the wall with the Yamaha, but it has happened, I have heard notes drop. But it never happened with the Kurz. That's not a scientific comparison, it could be coincidence, maybe I just never hit on one of the magic combinations that would have choked the Kurz, I'm sure there must be some. But again, it's not like the boards are full of people complaining about hitting the 64-note wall on their Kurzes. Really, there are so many huge differences in the sound, feel, and features of various boards, I think polyphony is among the least important considerations unless you know that you have a particular use in mind that will task it.
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Since this is going to go in and out of a closet or basement, I wanted it to be light and not bulky. So if I could design my own board, it would be a 76 note board with no over hang at the ends, very small extension to the back, and reasonable for weight. Sounding good to me is critical, and that is why I have discounted the Yamahas and some other keyboards, and would never buy a keyboard sound unheard. I also have 2 sons, one playing banjo and one playing guitar, both for fun. So, when visiting, I would like to take the keyboard along, and who knows what would develop. I will likely never play classical pieces, just old standards, so I doubt it would make much difference if a keyboard had a graded action or not. So, the Kurzweil is the closest to my needs, except for not having speakers and the questionable polyphony.
OK, so I have counted stereo twice, that brings down the total to 60 (6 X 10 keys = 60). If I were to make a background track using midi, wouldn't that eat up the polyphony, or would I really want to record the background track and feed that in for playing? I have a bunch of used books on MIDI in the mail to me, so will get up to speed before buying a keyboard.
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Since this is going to go in and out of a closet or basement, I wanted it to be light and not bulky. ... So, the Kurzweil is the closest to my needs, except for not having speakers and the questionable polyphony. and possibly also for not feeling anything like a piano. Since you're looking at things without speakers, have you checked the Casio PX-5S? It has a much better range of sounds than the PX-350. It weighs the same as the Kurzweil, but feels much more like a real piano. (OTOH, I'd say that, overall, the Kurzweil sounds better... but that's also subjective. I like Yamaha sounds, you don't.) OK, so I have counted stereo twice, that brings down the total to 60 (6 X 10 keys = 60). If I were to make a background track using midi, wouldn't that eat up the polyphony, or would I really want to record the background track and feed that in for playing? There are a number of issues raised in that question. What is the source of the MIDI backing track? (None of the boards we're talking about have suitable sequencers built in.) If you're using a computer to generate the sequence, keep in mind that you can also run virtual instruments on the computer itself... meaning you can use the computer's own sounds for the sequences, and that won't affect keyboard polyphony at all. But let's say that, for whatever reason, you want to use the keyboard's built-in sounds for your MIDI backing tracks. Although technically the SP-280 can do it, remember that you can't use any sound that isn't already built into the SP-280, so you have very little to choose from in creating your backing tracks. No bass or drums, for example. So there's an example of something you can do on the Kurzweil (or PX-5S) that you simply can't do on the Korg. Then there is your alternate method of simply playing a pre-recorded backing track. That also eliminates the polyphony problem, though you lose some of the flexibility that a MIDI backing track gives you, like being able to easily change tempo or key. Then you mentioned taking the backing track and "feeding it in" -- to what? There's a place where the Korg has an advantage... it has a line input for that purpose, and you will hear the backing track out of the Korg's speakers. The PX-5S also has an audio input, and will feed the backing tracks to whatever external amp/speakers you have attached to the keyboard. The Kurzweil does not have an aux input, so you would need to make sure your amp had multiple inputs, or you might need to add a mixer. Everything has its pros and cons...
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Yep, still have lots of investigating to do. I am not going to jump the gun on this, but take my sweet time. Thanks
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But let me run the numbers just to see if I have some misconceptions.
According to the Korg manual, the piano uses 3 oscillators and therefore 3 of the polyphony gets used up while playing a piano note.
These "layers" are at different dynamic velocities so you're only playing one of these layers at a time. It is however a stereo sample so for each note you're using 2 voices of polyphony.
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Well, I'm a real novice here. So what does it mean ' "layers" are at different dynamic velocities' ?
If adding layers does not eat up the polyphony, that would go a long way to reduce my concerns.
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Layers can be used in different ways. In terms of piano sounds on most products you're playing some layers when you play pianissimo and different layers when you're playing forte. Depending on how hard you strike the key determines which "velocity layer" you hear. Although the piano tone itself is made up of many layered components you're not using all of the layers all at once on each key.
Another kind of layer is when you combine to different sounds, like piano and strings. This generally cuts you available polyphony in half. In the case of an instrument with 64 notes of polyphony that technically gives you 32 stereo voices for piano. Adding a layer strings would reduce that further, stereo strings more drastically so.
Polyphony is one of those things where more is generally better.
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Polyphony is one of those things where more is generally better.
Yes, but if one is only using it for piano sounds, then it's not the end of the world unless you are playing late intermediate to advanced classical piano, then you would really notice the cut off when the max polyphony is reached. I think for the OP's purposes, focusing on polyphony is not really as important as features such as sound and touch would be.
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