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#2285483 - 06/04/14 03:31 AM Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
I recently purchased the Henle edition of the Album for the Young Opus 68.

The preface and comments are very helpful and give good insights into learning the pieces, but there doesn't seem to be any fixed tempo indications. For example, No. 10, "Frφhlicher Landmann", it is indicated "Frisch und munter". While that translates to "hale and hearty", it doesn't tell me the tempo at which I should play it.

Usually, there are tempo indications in other music books that I own. So how do I decide on the tempo for pieces from Album for the Young?

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#2285488 - 06/04/14 03:58 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1612
Loc: The Netherlands
I have the abrsm edition and the tempo markings are at the bottom of the page.
http://shop.abrsm.org/shop/prod/Schumann-Robert-Album-f-r-die-Jugend-Op-68-complete/641122
If you want to I can post the markings. I don't know whether I have time today but certainly tomorrow.

BTW. The markings given in this edition are quite fast.


Edited by wimpiano (06/04/14 03:59 AM)
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Schimmel 116 S ...

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#2285489 - 06/04/14 03:59 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
earlofmar Online   content
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Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1775
Loc: Australia
Whenever that happens I look to youtube to get a concensus
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I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXV-6-XXX

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#2285490 - 06/04/14 04:02 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1612
Loc: The Netherlands
@earlofmar unfortunately youtube is full of people playing in weird tempi..
Speedfreaks all over the place.
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ...

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#2285494 - 06/04/14 04:26 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: wimpiano]
earlofmar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1775
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: wimpiano
@earlofmar unfortunately youtube is full of people playing in weird tempi..
Speedfreaks all over the place.


very true

there are tempo markings at the free download site imslp.org
for example No 10 is shown on one of the choices to download as one crotchet = 116
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
XXXV-6-XXX

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#2285498 - 06/04/14 04:56 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1612
Loc: The Netherlands
From the top of my head: The first 5 pieces are all around 108 except for the "Ein Choral".


Edited by wimpiano (06/04/14 04:56 AM)
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ...

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#2285548 - 06/04/14 07:54 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Thank wimpiano, I just wanted to get an indication of the range of tempo.

Some pieces do have tempo indicated, for example, No. 12 "Knecht Ruprecht" has 126, but most pieces don't. Did Schumann include tempo indications in the original publications?

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#2285556 - 06/04/14 08:02 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1612
Loc: The Netherlands
It seems they where only added later by Clara. Robert seems not to have added indications.

The edition I have says something like:
Clara : (quarternote symbol) = 108
Editor: (quarternote symbol) = 100

The editor, in this case Howard Ferguson has added fingerings, slurs and tempo indications.

On the other hand you can just use this list (Keep in mind that the andantinos in this book are slightly faster than andante).
Larghissimo – very, very slow (19 BPM and under)
Grave – slow and solemn (20–40 BPM)
Lento – slowly (40–45 BPM)
Largo – broadly (45–50 BPM)
Larghetto – rather broadly (50–55 BPM)
Adagio – slow and stately (literally, "at ease") (55–65 BPM)
Adagietto – rather slow (65–69 BPM)
Andantino – slightly slower than andante (although in some cases it can be taken to mean slightly faster than andante) (78–83 BPM)
Andante – at a walking pace (84–90 BPM) (this is about the heart rate at an average walking speed thus the tempo of 84-90 BPM for andante)
Andante moderato – between andante and moderato (thus the name andante moderato) (90–100 BPM)
Marcia moderato – moderately, in the manner of a march[4][5] (83–85 BPM)
Moderato – moderately (100–112 BPM)
Allegro Moderato - moderately fast (112-116)
Allegretto – close to but not quite allegro (116–120 BPM)
Allegro – fast, quickly, and bright (120–160 BPM) (molto allegro is in the allegro range)
Vivace – lively and fast (132–140 BPM)
Vivacissimo – very fast and lively (140–150 BPM)
Allegrissimo (or Allegro Vivace) – very fast (168–177 BPM)
Presto – extremely fast (180–200 BPM)
Prestissimo – even faster than Presto (200 BPM and over)


Edited by wimpiano (06/04/14 08:08 AM)
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ...

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#2285571 - 06/04/14 08:25 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: wimpiano]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: wimpiano
It seems they where only added later by Clara. Robert seems not to have added indications.
So, if it wasn't indicated by the composer, then the choice of tempo is subjective isn't it?

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#2285576 - 06/04/14 08:30 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1612
Loc: The Netherlands
Somewhat yes.. According to my teacher most people play too fast..
In this case I would say that what Clara has written down would pretty much resemble the intention of Robert..
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ...

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#2285609 - 06/04/14 10:03 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
Ataru074 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 391
Loc: Houston, TX
make 3 consideration:
1) composer intent and musical message
2) what sounds good in your mind and allow you to express point #1
3) what you CAN technically play to match point #2.

if you have a gap between 3 and 2... work to fill the gap
if you don't understand point #1, usually ask you teacher or listen to some recordings by major performers to try to understand the intent or read about it.

sometimes as adult, we over-think too much.
it's called the album for the young, of course an adult will play in a different way from a kid, but the bottom line of these pieces is to have FUN playing it and be willing to spend time studying it.
_________________________
===============================================
working on:
Brahms: Op 118
Mozart: Kv330
Beethoven: Op 14 #2
===============================================

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#2285623 - 06/04/14 10:42 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: Ataru074]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: Ataru074
make 3 consideration:
1) composer intent and musical message
2) what sounds good in your mind and allow you to express point #1
3) what you CAN technically play to match point #2.
I think I can manage all three, at least for part 1.

Originally Posted By: Ataru074
listen to some recordings by major performers to try to understand the intent or read about it.
I'm listening to Schumann's works by Jφrg Demus. I find his playing to be quite expressive.

Originally Posted By: Ataru074
the bottom line of these pieces is to have FUN playing it and be willing to spend time studying it.
The pieces are a lot of fun, so that shouldn't be too hard.

Is "studying" a piece different from learning how to play it?

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#2285679 - 06/04/14 12:36 PM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
hreichgott Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1277
Loc: western MA, USA
Tempo gives your interpretation its own personality. Your tempo choice for a piece is the most important part of how you create your own style. Choose a tempo carefully and don't let anyone else choose for you smile (unless there is a metronome marking from the composer, which means the composer really wanted it one way.) Once you make a decision you can always check other recordings just to see if you're way off from what most people do, but who knows, maybe an unusual tempo is what you like for that piece and maybe it brings out something special about the music.

Studying a piece usually means going into detail. Learning to play a piece could just be sight-reading it a couple times until there aren't too many mistakes.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Working on: Schumann/Kinderszenen
Daily 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Pischna
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2285697 - 06/04/14 01:16 PM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
Ataru074 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 391
Loc: Houston, TX
I'm Italian so I have these distinctions if I consider a pure "translation" of the terms.

To study is the process (or processes ) we do apply to some discipline in order to acquire it.
for example, you study how to play scales applying a certain fingering, with rhythmic drills, practicing the thumb over / under, using the metronome...

the outcome could be positive, you did learn how to play scales or negative, you didn't learn how to play scales.. the common point is that you did study how to play scales regardless of the result.
the "third" degree is you "master" (this is the best translation I think I can use ).

you did study scales,
you did learn how to play scales and now you know it so well that you _master_ it.

What I meant about being willing to study the pieces is that at that particular level of literature, in my opinion is important to learn some interpretative aspects and some technical aspects but I don't expect anybody to "master" these pieces while growing. The risk is to consolidate defects instead of focusing on acquiring new skills and getting bored quickly.
_________________________
===============================================
working on:
Brahms: Op 118
Mozart: Kv330
Beethoven: Op 14 #2
===============================================

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#2285851 - 06/04/14 08:06 PM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: hreichgott]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Choose a tempo carefully and don't let anyone else choose for you smile (unless there is a metronome marking from the composer, which means the composer really wanted it one way.)
Good to know smile

Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Studying a piece usually means going into detail. Learning to play a piece could just be sight-reading it a couple times until there aren't too many mistakes.
Details like knowing intervals between notes in a phrase? Names of the chords and arpeggios, etc?

Originally Posted By: Ataru074
What I meant about being willing to study the pieces is that at that particular level of literature, in my opinion is important to learn some interpretative aspects and some technical aspects but I don't expect anybody to "master" these pieces while growing. The risk is to consolidate defects instead of focusing on acquiring new skills and getting bored quickly.
Hmmm... I think I get it. Boredom is not something I come across very often, so that's not a problem grin

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#2287055 - 06/07/14 04:34 PM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
wouter79 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3635
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#2287112 - 06/07/14 08:45 PM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: wouter79]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: wouter79
I did find it interesting.

"What the world has not yet understood: tempo has nothing to do with speed"

If tempo is indicated in beats per minute, what is it, if not speed?

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#2287172 - 06/08/14 12:29 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
hreichgott Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 1277
Loc: western MA, USA
^ Don't forget that's Celibidache talking wink
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Working on: Schumann/Kinderszenen
Daily 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2, Pischna
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2287247 - 06/08/14 07:57 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
wouter79 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3635
Ah yes the intro is a bit over the top. I think the wants to say that the tempo should *feel* right, and that 92 may be a good tempo in hall 1 but too fast in hall 2. The interview (the audio) and pdf further down the page) is more specific on Schumann.
_________________________

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#2287254 - 06/08/14 08:18 AM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1612
Loc: The Netherlands
I sent you a PM with most of the markings. I don't think that it's a good idea for publish 'm here (copyright infringement stuff).
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ...

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#2287331 - 06/08/14 12:05 PM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: noobpianist90]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Thanks a lot! smile

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#2287333 - 06/08/14 12:09 PM Re: Help with Schumann's Album for the young Op. 68 [Re: wouter79]
noobpianist90 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/13
Posts: 412
Loc: India
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Ah yes the intro is a bit over the top. I think the wants to say that the tempo should *feel* right, and that 92 may be a good tempo in hall 1 but too fast in hall 2. The interview (the audio) and pdf further down the page) is more specific on Schumann.
Yeah I read that part. Makes a lot of sense.

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