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#2287679 - 06/09/14 12:02 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Polyphonist Offline
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I don't think it's as exclusionary as you think.
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Polyphonist

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#2287695 - 06/09/14 12:53 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Mark_C]
Vid Offline
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Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
I was going to suggest Bach-Busoni Chorale Preludes and a short work by Chopin/Scriabin.

BTW if you felt like making your whole thing a set of Chorale Preludes, or even just plain Bach chorales (!) I think we'd have a huge appetite for that. smile


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#2287697 - 06/09/14 01:03 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Vid Offline
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I like the direction its going so far. There is a lot of polyphony in Rachmaninoff's music (and I happen to working on Op 23 5).
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#2287735 - 06/09/14 03:31 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
doctor S Online   content
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Registered: 05/27/12
Posts: 136
Loc: Western PA
More stormbraining: (y'all please comment yea or nay):

I want to play the arrangement by Egon Petri of the Bach Choral Prelude, "I Step Before the Throne, Lord"... (should pass muster as contrapuntal.)

I have a Manuel Ponce "Prelude and Fugue on a Theme by Handel" which is a bit more big chord and bass boomy, a la Busoni, (ergo perhaps not a winner for Poly), but it's by a less known composer who I think could merit some exposure here.

Ponce also has a Prelude and Fugue on a theme by Bach, for the Left Hand, which sounds more contrapuntal (contrapuntal harmony may occur more often in works for the left hand?). Not so big chord/bass boomy, and not as flashy as the Handel (ergo no recordings), but I think it's worth a go.

While googling found a paper: "Brahms’s Choral Music and His Journey to Contrapuntal Transcendence" by a Joseph Schubert.

http://www.calstatela.edu/sites/default/files/centers/Wagner/documents/Scubert.pdf

Very interesting history: Brahms took up a serious study of "early music" with the Schumanns in 1853 and studied counterpoint with the Schumanns and Joseph Joachim, with whom he exchanged weekly counterpoint exercises. Supposedly this influenced his later works, especially choral and chamber music. Mr. Schubert lists piano works between 1854 and 1860 which he feels have more contrapuntal flavor: the 4 ballades, Schumann variations, Piano Concerto No 1, but also says: "The use of counterpoint, particularly canonic writing, can be found in virtually all of Brahms’s instrumental compositions, and was therefore a part of his style from, at the latest, 1851." In this context, he mentions the Eb RHAPSODY (which I play). What say (Poly? ?) is this a tolerable counterpoint/fugue foil?

More brainsturming: Found this: Variationen: “Mein junges Leben hat ein End”, by Jan Pieterszon Sweelinck (1562–1621) and it is very nice. This would be a "before Bach" counterpoint, history of, etc?

Re: Rachmaninoff. He has a (newly published?) Fugue in D minor, and the Bach violin Partita arrangement (wish I could play either but would take months++). My Bb prelude is not very counterpointy, however perhaps the D major prelude # 4 is (two intertwined voices, canonical)??

So I'm thinking Bach-Petri Choral Prelude (which would be enough), maybe Ponce: one of his "Preludes and Fugues" (leaning to the Left Hand), and something late: ie Brahms, Rachmaninoff, or (please please) a Chopin Etude. Would the c# min #4 Etude Wreck the Rectal???
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#2287741 - 06/09/14 03:43 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Vid]
BruceD Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Vid
I like the direction its going so far. There is a lot of polyphony in Rachmaninoff's music (and I happen to working on Op 23 5).


Interesting! I'm working on Op. 23, No. 4 and No. 6.

Regards,
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#2287743 - 06/09/14 03:46 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Polyphonist Offline
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Well, none of those pieces suggested are fugues or canons, except for the fugue parts of the Ponce works, so only those would qualify for my suggestion, but then again we don't have to do this my way.

If we do decide to do it my way, however, I will be happy to assemble a large collection of fugues from all time periods, to pick from at our leisure.
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Polyphonist

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#2287756 - 06/09/14 04:12 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: BruceD]
Vid Offline
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Registered: 06/12/01
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Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Vid
I like the direction its going so far. There is a lot of polyphony in Rachmaninoff's music (and I happen to working on Op 23 5).


Interesting! I'm working on Op. 23, No. 4 and No. 6.

Regards,


Great! Will you be playing them in Victoria?
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Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2287758 - 06/09/14 04:13 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Vid]
BruceD Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Vid
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Vid
I like the direction its going so far. There is a lot of polyphony in Rachmaninoff's music (and I happen to working on Op 23 5).


Interesting! I'm working on Op. 23, No. 4 and No. 6.

Regards,


Great! Will you be playing them in Victoria?


I hope so.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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#2287846 - 06/09/14 08:48 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Polyphonist]
hreichgott Offline
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Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 994
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Well, none of those pieces suggested are fugues or canons, except for the fugue parts of the Ponce works, so only those would qualify for my suggestion, but then again we don't have to do this my way.

If we do decide to do it my way, however, I will be happy to assemble a large collection of fugues from all time periods, to pick from at our leisure.

Ooo, can you post that list? Then people can see if anything catches their interest. Whether or not we have 2 full hours of uninterrupted fuguehood and canonization.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2287848 - 06/09/14 09:02 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Tim Adrianson Offline
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Heather, if we're going the Fugue/Canon route, let me claim the following:

1 Maurice Ravel Prelude and Fugue from "Le Tombeau de Couperin" (1917)

2 Paul Schoenfield Intermezzi 1 and 3 from "Three Intermezzi" (2003). These are actually a Prelude and Fugue -- IMO quite beautiful and moving.

This would cover my 15 min segment.

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#2287851 - 06/09/14 09:10 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Polyphonist Offline
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Sounds good, Tim, although if we're adhering strictly to my idea, only the Fugues will be eligible, not the corresponding Preludes.

Heather, I'll get back to the list in about half an hour when I have more time.
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Polyphonist

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#2287871 - 06/09/14 10:25 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Well, none of those pieces suggested are fugues or canons, except for the fugue parts of the Ponce works, so only those would qualify for my suggestion, but then again we don't have to do this my way.

If we do decide to do it my way, however, I will be happy to assemble a large collection of fugues from all time periods, to pick from at our leisure.

Ooo, can you post that list? Then people can see if anything catches their interest. Whether or not we have 2 full hours of uninterrupted fuguehood and canonization.

Keep in mind this is by no means an exhaustive list, although it did take me 45 minutes to write.

Pre-Bach

Sweelinck
Fantasia Contraria
Hexachord Fantasia

Buxtehude
3 Fugues, BuxWV 174-176

Bach era

Bach
Too many to list. The 48 from the WTC, for starters, and there are dozens, if not hundreds, of miscellaneous organ fugues available in piano transcriptions. Then, there's anything from the Suites - same thing for Handel. Canon-wise, there are the 14 canons on the Goldberg ground - it would be very interesting if someone did that cycle. I could do it myself, if no one else. There are also the selections from the Musical Offering - some canon, some fugue - and of course the Art of Fugue.

Scarlatti
G minor fugue, K30

Classical

Mozart
C major fugue, K394
G minor fugue, K401

Clementi
3 Fugues, Opus 5

Beethoven
We could use the Eroica fugue - not really the Diabelli fugue. I doubt anyone's going to volunteer to play the Hammerklavier fugue. grin There are also assorted posthumously published fugues in the Hess catalogue.

Romantic

Reicha
36 Fugues, Opus 36

Schumann
4 Fugues, Opus 72
7 Fughettas, Opus 126

Chopin
Fugue in A minor

Brahms
We could use the fugue from the Handel Variations...I'm pretty sure there are also organ fugues in piano transcription.

Reger
Fugue from the Telemann Variations
Fugue from the Bach Variations
111 Canons in Two and Three Parts (quite a bit of material there!)
Fughetta, Opus 44/8

Scriabin
Fugue in E minor
Canon in D minor

Rachmaninoff
Canon in E minor

Contemporary

Shostakovich
24 fugues from Opus 87

Barber
Finale of the Piano Sonata

Polyphonist
Fugue in B minor grin

And all that only scratches the surface.

What do you think?
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Polyphonist

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#2287878 - 06/09/14 10:44 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Polyphonist]
hreichgott Offline
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Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 994
Loc: western MA, USA
Now that Tim and doctor S have posted these latest suggestions and armed with these extra ideas from Polyphonist I am also liking the idea of canons/fugues as an anchor for the recital, as long as it doesn't prevent other things from being played as well.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2287880 - 06/09/14 10:46 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Polyphonist Offline
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We could split the recital into two halves, one being all canons and fugues and the other being, perhaps, counterpoint-themed pieces mixed with miscellaneous. Would that make everyone happy?
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Polyphonist

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#2287883 - 06/09/14 11:05 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
FSO Offline
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Loc: UK, Brighton
And there was me thinking a good compromise leaves everyone *unhappy* wink
Xxx
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Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2287884 - 06/09/14 11:06 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Polyphonist Offline
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Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Trust you to think something like that. whistle
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Polyphonist

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#2287892 - 06/09/14 11:27 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Pover Offline
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Registered: 04/22/14
Posts: 116
Loc: Jordan
Well, if you feel like making fugues the theme, I can probably get the one in C minor from WTC I up to a listenable standard :P I remember dropping it, however, because I could never figure out when to bring out the 2nd counter-subject.

If the 4th french suite qualifies as being good counterpoint (it is sometimes canonic as well, think gavotte and gigue. Actually a lot of it is wink ), I'd be more than happy to work on it. As for the Rach stuff, I think it's a great idea. Lots of times the reason I love Rach is due to the polyphony and inner voices.
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Faris
Self-taught for around 3 years now. All advice welcome laugh

Working on:
Schumann arabeske op. 18
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#2287907 - 06/10/14 12:34 AM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
MikeN Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 579
Loc: Ohio
Yikes, fugues are the bane of my existence. I've somewhat shot myself in the foot with this one. I typically avoid fugues at any and all possible times.

Oh well, I do have to say that 2 hours of fugues and cannons is a rather ridiculous program in my opinion. Although I'm not opposed to having a program centering around fugues, cannons, and polyphonically rich music, I think great care should be given not to make a program that gives the listeners a musical stomach ache due to the richness.

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#2287922 - 06/10/14 01:44 AM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: MikeN]
Mark_C Offline
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Loc: New York
I wouldn't put it quite so strongly grin but it seems to me that something so focused and specialized (and it is!) should be reserved for perhaps a later edition of this new feature of the site, after it's been rolling for a while and has established itself and when maybe a bit of "spice" is needed, rather than the inaugural one. But the more modest version of this that was initially discussed -- i.e. contrapuntal works alternating with others -- seems like it could work great on all counts.

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#2287924 - 06/10/14 02:02 AM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Mark_C]
MikeN Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 579
Loc: Ohio
Ok, lol, maybe not quite so strong. When one considers the fact that one isn't being subjected to sitting through the entire program at once, then it's feasible. I just can't imagine going to a live recital with such a program. ha

I do think half a program of fugues and cannons can work in this instance. I do also think that the latter idea you mentioned, Mark, is a far better one.

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#2288059 - 06/10/14 12:00 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Polyphonist Offline
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Loc: New York City
Just so you know, this piano recital does not involve heavy artillery. We are talking about canons here.
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Polyphonist

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#2288086 - 06/10/14 12:36 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Polyphonist]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5108
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Just so you know, this piano recital does not involve heavy artillery. We are talking about canons here.

I thought you Yanks don't go in for understatement? wink
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"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2288406 - 06/11/14 08:32 AM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
hreichgott Offline
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Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 994
Loc: western MA, USA
Here is a first try at program order. Please feel free to take it apart and to alter your repertoire selections.

Bach-Busoni: chorale preludes (Polyphonist)
Bach-Petri: chorale prelude (doctor S)

Rachmaninoff: Prelude Op 23 no 5 (Vid)

Bach: French Suite no. 4 (Pover)

Chopin: group of pieces (ec)
Chopin: Etude Op 10 no 4 (doctor S)

Ponce: prelude and fugue (doctor S)

Gibbons: pavane, allemande, courante (FSO)

Stanchinsky: mazurka and maybe variations (FSO)

Ravel: Prelude and fugue from Tombeau de Couperin (Tim)

Schoenfield: Intermezzi no. 1 and 3 (Tim)

Bach: Contrapunctus no. 1 from Art of Fugue (FSO)

All we know of MikeN so far is that he doesn't want to play a fugue smile MikeN does anything occur to you?
and Vid would you like to play more in addition to the one prelude? (you don't have to of course)
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2288440 - 06/11/14 09:59 AM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Tim Adrianson Offline
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Posts: 1056
Heather, thanks for assembling this! Personally, I like both the repertoire as listed and the order of presentation. I will therefore proceed with polishing the Ravel and Schoenfield for recording next month.

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#2288476 - 06/11/14 11:20 AM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
So I see we're not going for anything in particular regarding a contrapuntal theme. In that case, why not just put the recital in chronological order. I don't think the chorale preludes should be first; better to have the French Suite take that position. I will be inserting a Schumann fugue somewhere into the recital as well.
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Polyphonist

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#2288502 - 06/11/14 12:21 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Polyphonist]
hreichgott Offline
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Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 994
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
So I see we're not going for anything in particular regarding a contrapuntal theme. In that case, why not just put the recital in chronological order. I don't think the chorale preludes should be first; better to have the French Suite take that position. I will be inserting a Schumann fugue somewhere into the recital as well.

It sure looks like a counterpoint themed recital with several fugues to me!
To you, does 'theme' mean 'many pieces that have this characteristic' or 'absolutely no pieces that do not have this characteristic'?

French Suite first is fine.

What would be the rationale behind presenting pieces in historical order?
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2288503 - 06/11/14 12:24 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
What would be the rationale behind presenting pieces in historical order?

It's usual, and all else being equal, advisable.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2288504 - 06/11/14 12:26 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Polyphonist]
hreichgott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 994
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
What would be the rationale behind presenting pieces in historical order?

It's usual, and all else being equal, advisable.

I can't remember ever being at a recital that went in historical order, except for one student festival where it was required.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2288530 - 06/11/14 01:12 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: hreichgott]
Vid Offline
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Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 834
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
I'm used to programs in historical order mainly because it is the format of the RCM requirements - Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Late Romantic, 'Modern'. Some like to order a program according to keys but I don't know if that's something an audience actually will pick up on.

I could possibly also play a 2 part invention or a straight up Bach Chorale.


Edited by Vid (06/11/14 01:12 PM)
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#2288541 - 06/11/14 01:26 PM Re: July Concert Program - Signup and Planning Thread [Re: Vid]
Mark_C Offline
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When I was a lad, which was about 300 years ago grin it was pretty usual for the pieces in a program to be more-or-less in chronological order. It seemed to me that this had changed in the last few decades at least to the point that there was no expectation that this would be so; the order seemed to be more on the basis of overall 'flow' or 'emotion' or 'structure'-- in other words, whatever would seem to make musical sense or narrative sense or dramatic sense. In any event, I'm quite sure it doesn't particularly go against anything if your order isn't chronological.

About what Vid said about doing it according to keys: I think that's quite unusual, except to the extent that it's not uncommon to group two pieces together (or maybe a few, but usually two) according to their keys.

BTW, FWIW, here's what was the order in my first recital, which was 42 years ago (and, need I say grin I wasn't any kind of pace-setter):

Schubert
Haydn
Ives
Chopin


Edited by Mark_C (06/11/14 01:51 PM)

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