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#2288531 - 06/11/14 01:15 PM Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
There are 14 instruments on the staves for symphony no. 40.

If I divide that by 4 I will get pianos needed assuming no overlap and no playing of the same note and that there are 2 players per piano playing with both of their hands.

That is 4 pianos with 7 players so this would be a piano septet of the form 4 pianos, 14 hands.

More than this might actually be needed and also the translation from alto clef to treble and bass clefs for the viola part and lastly getting all the players in sync.

This would be a little difficult but no piano transcription of the symphony no. 40 by Mozart would ever sound the same.

Those piano quartets with 4 pianists and not a pianist + strings, piano duets, and piano solos always have notes missing so that they sound similar to but not exactly like the original symphony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS05QSfeT6g is a piano duet. Other than the piano timbre it doesn't sound very similar to the original but has similarities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdNNudSfpgM is a piano solo. It sounds even more dissimilar than the duet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8nuy1t329g This I think is the piano transcription for 4 pianos, 14 hands or at least 2 pianos, 8 hands because it sounds very similar excluding the piano timbre, even more so than the duet does. But this is 1% dissimilar as far as the notes and their duration and not transcribed exactly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvtoqE33iZg this is the original symphony in comparison to the piano transcriptions


Edited by caters (06/11/14 01:32 PM)

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#2288533 - 06/11/14 01:17 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
JoelW Offline
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You're going to need about 500 pianos.

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#2288546 - 06/11/14 01:33 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: JoelW]
caters Offline
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not if I just want all the notes in the sheet music.

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#2288563 - 06/11/14 02:18 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
BDB Offline
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Several instruments double other instruments. It is doubtful that there are ever 14 separate voices in the score. More likely, there are never more than there are fingers on your hands.
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#2288584 - 06/11/14 03:34 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
Keith D Kerman Offline
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#2288639 - 06/11/14 06:23 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
Polyphonist Offline
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hahahahaha
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#2288647 - 06/11/14 06:51 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: Keith D Kerman]
BDB Offline
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I see 5 transcriptions for solo piano on IMSLP, and the Hummel transcription in Keith's post is not one of them.
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#2288717 - 06/11/14 10:40 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: BDB]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
there are 14 staves and so I take that to be 14 instruments since there are no piano parts or parts for other instruments with 2 or more staves.

And as you get more and more notes from 1 staff to 2 to 3 etc. it sounds more and more similar to the orchestral version if you don't take the piano timbre into concern.

3 pianists per piano is already very uncomfortable and so 7 or 8 is nearly impossible. That plus the overlap and playing of the same note lead to my base number of 4 pianos and 7 pianists and the fact that more might be needed. What also lead to 4 pianos 14 hands is 2 staves per pianist and 4 per piano I am surprised at how they even get 8 let alone 16 pianists on 2 pianos. This 4 pianos 14 hands the way I have it which is the most comfortable way is equivalent to 3 duets + 1 solo.

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#2288721 - 06/11/14 10:47 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
Polyphonist Offline
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smokin

By the way, where are these 14 staves that you see? I only see 11.
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#2288734 - 06/11/14 11:38 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
BDB Offline
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Your math does not make sense.
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#2288757 - 06/12/14 12:43 AM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: caters
there are 14 staves and so I take that to be 14 instruments since there are no piano parts or parts for other instruments with 2 or more staves.



I, too, see only 11 staves and, if you look closely, a goodly number of instruments are doubling other instruments, so you're not going to need nearly as many pianos and pianists as you seem to think.
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#2288761 - 06/12/14 12:59 AM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
14 staves in order in the parts section:
Flute
Oboe 1
Oboe 2
Clarinet 1
Clarinet 2
Bassoon 1
Bassoon 2
Horn 1
Horn 2
1st violins
2nd violins
violas
cellos
basses

That is 14 staves.

you must have been counting in the full score instead of parts if you saw 11 and I saw 14


Edited by caters (06/12/14 01:01 AM)

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#2288765 - 06/12/14 01:17 AM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
BDB Offline
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That is 14 parts. I checked my facsimile of the Haffner Symphony, and it is on 12 stave paper. Some of the parts are both on the same staff, like the horns and clarinets. Chances are Mozart used the same paper for #40.
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#2288769 - 06/12/14 01:33 AM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: BDB]
caters Offline
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well still x staves divided by 2 = minimum # of pianists assuming duet on each piano

and then that divided by 2 = minimum number of pianos assuming duet on each.

The reason that I am leaning towards duets + singles is that a trio on 1 piano is already uncomfortable so maximum comfortable # of pianists per piano is 2. However 11 is prime and so after dividing by 4 since it is 4n-1 I would have 3 pianos with one having 3 staves and the other 2 having 4.

I prefer the parts for these reasons:
1) It gives me the true number I need to do calculations with
2) lots of pieces have few if any intervals for quite a few measures and this 1 part per hand makes intervals that are there really easy(easier than intervals that are all in 1 hand)
3) I don't run into prime numbers as often this way.
4) Since I use musescore and some of the full scores(Like Piano Concerto no. 21 by Mozart of Tchaikovsky's ballets) have changing numbers of staves which is confusing, using the parts makes things much simpler.


Edited by caters (06/12/14 01:37 AM)

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#2288770 - 06/12/14 01:38 AM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
JoelW Offline
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You're going to need about 9 million pianos.

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#2288777 - 06/12/14 02:22 AM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
BDB Offline
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You are still wrong. Most instruments can only play one note at a time, while a pianist can play chords. Chords of four notes in each hand are common in piano music, so one pianist may be able to play what eight other instrumentalists are playing, especially if there is doubling of parts.

You should look at the score, and compare it to some of the existing transcriptions. Chances are you will find that they are pretty complete, especially once you get to two pianists.
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#2288779 - 06/12/14 02:33 AM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
Derulux Offline
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I think if you were to replace the phrase "minimum pianists" with "maximum pianists", you might be closer to the mark. Most of the posts here are 100% on point -- pianists can play more than one note, so you really might only need, at minimum, one pianist on one piano..
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#2288851 - 06/12/14 10:28 AM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
Polyphonist Offline
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Even half a pianist on one piano. I can give the gist of it using LH alone. laugh

A 2 hands, one piano transcription is quite sufficient, although Liszt did say that the only thing he couldn't transcribe for piano was this symphony. (But that had to do with the piano's timbre, not its ability to play all the parts.)
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#2288959 - 06/12/14 04:03 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
MarkH Offline
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Caters, if you read a little about the history of piano transcription, and some basic orchestration, you'll come across the idea that writing that is idiomatic for one instrument is not necessarily idiomatic for another. This is true both for technical/performance reasons and for acoustic/physics reasons. Thus, the ideal piano transcription is NOT a note for note translation of an orchestral score into a piano reduction, but an arrangement that realizes the musical gesture of the original work as effectively as possible at the piano.
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#2289005 - 06/12/14 06:04 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: Derulux]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
I say it is minimum for duets + singles because this is very comfortable. I don't consider 1 pianist on 1 piano feasable because obviously you can't get every single note that way.

This is the similarity to original diagram and as you can see the duet and solo are very low and the minimum for all notes(assuming duet with each hand playing 1 instrument's notes + singles with the same assumption) is very high.
Piano solo<Piano duet<Piano trio<Piano quartet<Piano quintet<piano sextet<piano septet ..... <minimum pianos for all notes approximately = original orchestral version

Here is an exception to the no more than 1 note thing that is always in an orchestra unless it is made for a woodwind or brass ensemble of some sort:
The Strings Section

Just like the piano the 1st violins, 2nd violins, violas, cellos, and contrabasses can play intervals and chords without having to arpeggiate them like woodwinds and brass do.


Edited by caters (06/12/14 06:10 PM)

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#2289006 - 06/12/14 06:13 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
Vid Offline
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Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
What you are proposing would be an interesting experiment but I'm certain the arranged versions would sound better than the result of 7 or 8 pianos performing literal single lines from the orchestral score.

For one thing a piano cannot sustain notes like a wind or string instrument so trying to perform the notes literally would have a much different affect as the note decays quickly on piano. You also cannot crescendo with a held note on a piano so an arrangement needs to employ other means to attain a similar result.
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#2289008 - 06/12/14 06:18 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
BDB Offline
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To start, if you want every single note to be played, you should write every single note on two staves. Then you will see what cannot be played by two or four hands. Do this, and then write back.
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#2289015 - 06/12/14 06:37 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: Vid]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
Originally Posted By: Vid
What you are proposing would be an interesting experiment but I'm certain the arranged versions would sound better than the result of 7 or 8 pianos performing literal single lines from the orchestral score.

For one thing a piano cannot sustain notes like a wind or string instrument so trying to perform the notes literally would have a much different affect as the note decays quickly on piano. You also cannot crescendo with a held note on a piano so an arrangement needs to employ other means to attain a similar result.


Actually with 1 held note you can crescendo and diminuendo that by doing a creschendo and diminuendo with notes that aren't held. Same for more.

As for the sustaining problem that can be solved by pedaling because pedaling makes the sound decay much slower.

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#2289101 - 06/12/14 10:17 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
Also some people say allegro is 120-160 and some say it is 120-130.

I agree with the 120-160 for these reasons:
1) not all allegros are the same and so all those different allegros should all be in the allegro range
2) If 140-160 which is molto allegro was not in the allegro range it would be considered Vivace and Vivace pops up much less often than Molto Allegro does.

Some people say andantino is faster than andante and that andante moderato is slower than andante. I disagree with those that say that for these reasons:
1) I was always taught that it was the reverse with andantino being the slower one and andante moderato being the faster one.
2) Just because allegro moderato is slower than allegro does not mean the same thing is true for andante and andante moderato.
3) -tino when applied to tempo means slower than
4) the moderato part of andante moderato tells you it is closer to moderato just like it does with allegro moderato.

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#2289104 - 06/12/14 10:23 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
Originally Posted By: caters
There are 14 instruments on the staves for symphony no. 40.

If I divide that by 4 I will get pianos needed assuming no overlap and no playing of the same note and that there are 2 players per piano playing with both of their hands.

That is 4 pianos with 7 players so this would be a piano septet of the form 4 pianos, 14 hands.

More than this might actually be needed and also the translation from alto clef to treble and bass clefs for the viola part and lastly getting all the players in sync.

This would be a little difficult but no piano transcription of the symphony no. 40 by Mozart would ever sound the same.

Those piano quartets with 4 pianists and not a pianist + strings, piano duets, and piano solos always have notes missing so that they sound similar to but not exactly like the original symphony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS05QSfeT6g is a piano duet. Other than the piano timbre it doesn't sound very similar to the original but has similarities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdNNudSfpgM is a piano solo. It sounds even more dissimilar than the duet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8nuy1t329g This I think is the piano transcription for 4 pianos, 14 hands or at least 2 pianos, 8 hands because it sounds very similar excluding the piano timbre, even more so than the duet does. But this is 1% dissimilar as far as the notes and their duration and not transcribed exactly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvtoqE33iZg this is the original symphony in comparison to the piano transcriptions


That piano solo that I gave the link to not only sounds less similar to the symphony than the duet but it is exactly half the duet. It is the treble half or Primo of the duet of which the left hand sometimes gets into the bass clef.

Also that 3rd link is almost a note for note transcription with 1% mistakes in the transcribing.

Now yes there is less muddying in the solo and duet but the 1% dissimilar note for note transcription sounds much more similar than the duet and solo do.

So if you are going for similarity like I am than the best choice is a note for note transcription. You would need at least 2 or 3 people for that though to be even feasible and synchronizing individual fingers is much harder than synchronizing hands which is much harder than synchronizing players. For it to be the most comfortable you would need 7 players and 7 pianos and 2nd most would be 7 players and 4 pianos since you would want parts that are doubled up to be separate just like you do in an orchestra and the most comfortable one after solo is duet.

If you have parts doubled up there is more chance that the number is going to be prime since in a Ulam spiral the primes are more concentrated towards the center.


Edited by caters (06/12/14 10:33 PM)

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#2289108 - 06/12/14 10:25 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
Parks Offline
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Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 440
Loc: Northern CA
Caters,
For what is this project?
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#2289113 - 06/12/14 10:36 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
I just wanted to see if I could go from the very dissimilar solo and duet to higher numbers and thus higher similarity.

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#2289115 - 06/12/14 10:39 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
Parks Offline
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Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 440
Loc: Northern CA
If I may - higher numbers does not equal higher similarity. A work of art is more than the sum of its parts. If you want a result that resembles the piece, play the piece.
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#2289135 - 06/12/14 11:53 PM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
caters Offline
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Registered: 02/27/14
Posts: 187
Loc: Columbus, ohio, USA
Ah but higher numbers means more notes are possible in a more comfortable way so that is a plus.

Another plus is easier synchronization when you have higher numbers.

Even if playing all the notes of 1 symphony was possible with 1 pianist our hands would need to have fingers that can reach much farther than a normal finger would reach and that is just simply not possible so 1 pianist and 1 piano is not possible for 1 symphony unless there are few instruments like in Mozart's 1st symphony but if there are I would say more than 6 instruments in the original than it is not possible with 1 pianist and needs higher numbers. Plus if you assume 1 instrument per hand like they have in those solos and duets that are transcriptions and not originals than the more players the more instruments the notes of are possible.

Whenever I listen to a solo transcription of an orchestral piece or vice versa it always sounds very dissimilar. Duets sound more similar and Trios sound even more similar and so on.

The orchestral transcription of the Toccata and Fugue in G minor by Bach sounds very dissimilar from the original organ solo and the piano solo transcription of lots of symphonies sound very dissimilar from the original symphony and when you compare a note to note transcription whether that be a piano solo arrangement of an organ solo or minimum pianos assuming 1 instrument per hand and 4 instruments per piano for a symphony to a duet or orchestral transcription of solo and vice versa there is great difference in similarity and timbre.


Edited by caters (06/13/14 12:26 AM)

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#2289162 - 06/13/14 01:07 AM Re: Symphony no. 40(every single note) on the piano [Re: caters]
Parks Offline
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Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 440
Loc: Northern CA
Why don't you just listen to the actual symphony?
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