Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Rachel Jimenez: The experience of playing a grand piano

A quite meaty post at Fundamental Keys on the experience of playing and practicing on a grand piano, and how it fully engages one's senses and how that, in turn, affects one's playing.

Rachel also has some provocative (?) thoughts on the role of the digital piano (expanding upon her previous post) plus some perhaps surprising things to say about acoustic uprights.

The experience of playing a grand piano

Yes, yes,,,
The PROBLEM with articles like this is the risk that parents see the comparison between nice grand pianos and mere "keyboards" as being SO large that they might as well just not get their kid(s) started.
No way are we going to fit a 9 ft grand in THIS house and that is what we need according to this article, so lets encourage them toward violent sports instead and take a chance on head injuries.

The introduction makes it clear that


And concludes later with

That is absolutely NOT what Rachel is saying. Over in the teacher forum there is a snob and dismissive attitude toward digitals. Rachel FAVOURS the digital piano, and does so for serious students. She compares: quality grands, not quality grands, uprights, and digitals, placing the digitals about the uprights and the not quality grands. In addition, she is factual about it. I got tired, in the teacher forum, of reading that parents should be told how their eyes would light up when their youngster plays on a grand the first time and similar appeals to emotion.

Rachel says nothing about "mere keyboards" - in fact, she promotes them and seriously discusses their value after having fully explored them herself. This is a far cry from teachers who dismiss the keyboard without ever having seriously looked at what can be done with them. The keyboard, upright, and grand in a sense are three different instruments, that should be explored as such - as Rachel has done.

The advice to avoid using an upright for students with Classical aspirations is interesting. She suggests using a high-end digital if acoustic is not an option.

Much of what she says is what I have also been told. I'm glad this information is finally out there.

I'd never played a grand all through my Grade exams until after Grade 8 ABRSM, when I started working towards my performance diploma with a new teacher (because I was now at university, and could not keep my previous one at school) - and only because he had two grands for teaching at his home.

But my practice pianos were still Yamaha uprights in the university's Music Department practice rooms. Practising on uprights but having lessons on grands was an interesting experience, but it forced me to learn to adapt to different pianos very quickly. Yes, their actions are different.

My home piano, as I've mentioned before, is a high-end digital (Roland V-Piano) which I bought in 2010, which I play using headphones. (It has no speakers). In the four years since I've had it, I've learnt lots of new, difficult repertoire that I'd never before contemplated, like Ravel's Gaspard de la nuit. I've had no problems at all transitioning to acoustic grands (or uprights), playing on them the stuff that I'd learnt from scratch and mastered on my digital at home.

Yes, I'd love to have a Bösendorfer Imperial 290 grand at home, but practicalities get in the way (neighbors, space, money......).

My son is now 13 and has been playing the piano since he was 6. For the first few year he was actually playing on a 1995 era Clavinova. The piano teacher said that we needed a new piano because the songs he was starting to play required that the notes play out for many beats and my 1995 Clavinova could not keep up or would drop the notes. So I got a Yamaha Clavinova CLP 340 a few years back ($3K at the time, weighted keys, velocity, key let off, bla bla bla). The piano teacher freaked - literally - that we purchased a digital again I think she expected us to purchase an upright. She even marched down to the music store herself (45 minute drive). She then called us when she got back ... "Wow, that is a really expressive piano. The college needs some of these instead of the old out of tune uprights they have now."

Why did I go digital ... family life mainly. I have 4 other younger kids. To have the piano ringing throughout the house at all times would have been unbearable for my family and we probably would have quit. I cannot count the number of hours he has spent with headphones playing that piano. He does have a natural passion for it I believe. He has had a great run thus far even winning several competitions along the way.

To cut the back story short, the piano teacher retired a few months back. We had settled on a new teacher. We had seen her before and we liked her. My son even beat some of her students in prior competitions, so we knew the quality of her students. The days were set, lessons scheduled. Somehow we got on the topic that we had the Clavinova. She dropped us like the plague and never looked back.

So, I called the Yamaha dealer up (he is close) and told him the story. His advise was to go grand or "hybrid" (like a Yamaha N1). He stated that to get him an upright would be a step back for my son as the keys on the CLP 340 are built "like" a grand piano action and that is what he is used to versus the action of an upright. (That may explain a little why he always seemed to do well in competitions and also transition well from home to lessons??? It could have just been the practice hours too I suppose???)

The prior posts at least gave me great feedback that the Yamaha dealer was not totally trying to up sell me; that is, there does seem to be "some" consensus that a good digital can be better than a good (or maybe even really good) upright ... and maybe even a "bad" grand.

I am not a piano player. I do get that a piano has a "feel" about how the sounds and vibrations move through your fingers, hands and body (that to get a digital to reproduce would probably not be possible), and hence I try to get him on an acoustic any time I can. Weekly he plays music for his youth group at church for example.

We have a teacher now that we are even more excited about thankfully. Even then, there was some "small" hesitation on our Clavinova but when we explained our home and family life, she was more open and agreed to take him on.

In a perfect world would I have a 9 foot grand in my home ... you bet. With income limits, home limits, family limits ... as a parent ... you do the best you can. What I am getting from this thread is balance between digital and acoustics ... where again, I do my best. It is comforting to hear that folks out there can be successful with "just a digital" in their homes.

I started learning piano at the age of 10, on a cheap (actually, the cheapest) vertical that my parents could find at the time. This was several decades ago, so digitals didn't exist then, just Hammond organs and synthesizers.

That little Yamaha vertical had (and still has) a tinny, strident tone at all dynamic levels, a shallow key travel and very light key weight. Despite being new, its keys were prone to sticking (I actually had to stop playing to lift a key back up at times), despite all the efforts of the technician. And I was constantly competing against the TV, which was just a few feet away (no one else was interested in music, and my parents certainly didn't want to hear my practicing). When I left home to go to a boarding school, I found I didn't have the 'strength' to cope with the proper uprights there, and I almost had to rebuild my keyboard technique all over again. I also had another steep adaptation curve when I started playing grands for the first time.

All this is to say, that I'd have been a lot better off having a good digital that I could play with headphones when I was learning then - except of course, that the technology didn't exist then.

Eventually I hope to get to a well-stocked piano store (*) and try out lots of pianos, and in particular find out what I can feel and hear for differences between grand pianos and uprights. Rachel's article mostly makes me sad because I really really really don't want a digital piano (**), and I really really really don't see myself having the money for a grand piano.

I didn't used to think I could see making the space for a grand piano, but I'm convinced enough by Rachel's article about the virtues of grands that I'm starting to imagine, not "how could I make room given everything in my living room" but "what size grand would work in my living room once I take out all the furniture, and then what furniture can I fit back in".


(*) Cunningham Piano (I keep being in Philadelphia for business trips, but because they're business trips I keep not having enough time to do anything else -- I'm hoping for a purely pleasure pilgrimage to Philly this summer, precisely for the purpose of visiting Cunningham...)

(**) Rachel mentions psychological effects of playing the piano that then form a feedback loop that feeds into one's interpretation. Playing a digital because it's supposed to be better than an upright is not something I'm yet able to embrace with any psychological joy, whereas I'm quite fond of my upright, despite the limitations that I'm already well aware of (dynamics, tone quality mostly... once I've tried out more grands I may be able to better feel the touch difference). Although I suppose I should find a well-stocked digital piano emporium and try some out. Any suggestions? I'm travelling this summer, so anywhere on the Eastern seaboard between Maine and Pennsylvania is a possibility; also inland vaguely on the route between Philadelphia and Rochester, NY.

If I were moving to an apartment (something I've occasionally considered for family reasons), I would in that case be quite willing to get a digital in a heartbeat, so as to be able to play at all hours without worrying about the neighbours. But living in a house with no-one to please but myself, I like having an acoustic piano.

I suppose I could consider having a digital with a grand action for occasional play to get the touch... who knows, maybe I would fall out of love with my upright. But that feels so calculating.

Why? It is just one opinion. Also, the article states it is geared to professional pianists or those aspiring to play classical piano at a high level.

"... I just want to make sure it’s clear that I’m writing from the perspective of a classically trained, professional level pianist. I grew up playing only on acoustics, and from age 15 on, I practiced only on grands, mostly Steinways. Most of what I say is geared towards those with a similar background or anyone who plays or aspires to play the classical repertoire at a high level."

This is not in line with my piano history, or pursuits and so I immediately discounted the rest as informational, but of interest nonetheless as it offers a new perspective.

Personally, I don't buy it anyway. There is a difference in action from digital to digital, upright to upright and grand to grand. To claim you need to train on only a grand if you are striving to play at a high level, I think is non-sense. Sort of like saying if your kids aspire to play hockey like Wayne Gretzky, you need to make sure they only play with Tack hockey Skates.

My biggest beef with an acoustic upright is its inability to play softly. It doesn't seem to do this very well. It is either loud or louder. Only, the very high end grands begin to address this. This is the only real reason I would ever change. However, unless I hit the LotoMax ... I'll be playing an acoustic upright for a long time to come ...

Grands have a different action from an upright, which allows more versatility on repeated notes and trills, also on feeling the escapement and control of notes based on that, plus whatever differences follow on from having to lift the dampers against gravity rather than triggering a spring mechanism.

I read the article as saying if you want to play hockey you will eventually need hockey skates, not figure skates. Or if you want to figure skate (or play hockey, but this is something I actually encountered in figure skating after only a year of lessons), you will eventually need skates with proper ankle support. Or if you want to dance Argentine tango as it is meant to be danced, you need shoes with leather soles and laces or a strap, and if you don't have those with you, it's better to dance in your stocking feet (another situation I've encountered).

Almost from the first moment of getting my upright piano, I have encountered pieces where I desperately wish I had a true sostenuto pedal. At least my piano has a middle pedal, and sometimes its bass damper effect is sufficient. But often it's not.

I've tried a grand and been blown away by how easy it was to play really soft and achieve lots of dynamic contrast. It's something I struggle with on my upright, and now I know that it's not my fault, but rather a limitation of my upright. To the extent that this makes everything I play less musical and more difficult to play than it could be, I thirst for a grand.

For me, I'm already feeling the limitations of my upright, and have for quite a while. I want to be able to play classical music, and play it beautifully. So I read her as saying there are things I want to achieve that simply can't be achieved on an upright.

I’ve asked Rachel to read my comments before posting them. I didn’t want to speak for her as it were, so waited for her to 'approve'. I completely sympathize with your sentiment since I also have a 48” upright that sounds great, better than any digital, even better than software piano because it is the real thing.

I would like to ease your concern a little since I have thought about this a bit though I also would not deviate from what she has recommended because ideally, it is what it is. The upright piano is not ideal. It was conceived to save both space and money. A good upright really can sound wonderful providing the kind of visceral experience that an acoustic piano can give. However, the compromises of the upright are essentially summarized in its narrower dynamic range, slower repetition, and lighter key weight compared to a big grand piano.

But there are a few caveats that you should know. From my experience, a small grand piano is not much better than an upright. A small grand piano (baby) has action that is also very light. Also, the small grand piano also has a smaller dynamic range compared to a tall 48” or 52” upright and often less bass. If you search the Piano Forum for discussions on small grand pianos, even if you had a Steinway Model S (5’1”), many might prefer an upright. Del Fandrich mentioned the short key length of these small grand pianos is compromised from lack of leverage. So I would say if you were to have a grand piano at all for the purpose of acquisition of technical skills, you’ll need a larger grand piano, one that’s in the size of a Steinway M (5’7”), L or O (5’10”). In fact many recommend a piano at least 6’ in length, similar in size to a Steinway Model A, if you could afford it for the very serious student, but I think that's a bit of a luxury.

That’s all nice and great but it points to a very expensive piano. Even the 6-foot Chinese Brodmann PE187, highly praised for its performance and noted for its shameless copy of the Steinway Model A design, cost $22,000 or there about. So a good grand piano is just expensive.

I think that’s where a digital piano comes in. I simply do not see why you need to come up with a huge sum of money for a grand piano if you cannot afford it, and completely disrupt your house to fit one in. Other people live in your house as well and they may not be so open to the disruption or sacrifice of doing this. Between $1000 - $2000 you could get a very nice console DP that more than fulfill the skill acquisition that Rachel recommends and you could put off that whole grand piano thing for later. Sure the DP would never have that visceral experience or inspire you the way an acoustic piano does, but for shear skill acquisition, it does the job and you may find it helpful to have the flexibility of playing with privacy for those times when you want to repeat the same phrase 100 times. And you don’t have to give up on your upright to get inspiration from the real acoustic sound. I play on my upright too, and it's way more inspiring than a DP, and I almost always find some changes musically that I do not when I practice solely on a DP. Most of our practices are focus on specific tasks though. I think you’ll find that during these focus sessions; you could be very productive on a DP even if it sounds yucky.

The feel of the escapement is not necessary. It’s more marketing than anything. It’s not something you should even try to feel for. At least that’s not how Rachel teaches. She teaches pressing the key smoothly and keep pressing as if the key is going pass the keybed to the floor. Don’t hesitate or try to think about where the escapement is. That’s why DP action without escapement is perfectly fine because you don’t need them.

Rachel also added -

He has an upright that he likes? Then yes, he should keep it to play on sometimes, but for *practicing* get a digital. Then, remind him he should also look into what piano shops, churches, schools etc. in his area might have a decent grand they would let him practice on once a week or something. Maybe for an hourly rate or paying for the tuning or something like that.

I found this article, and this thread really interesting. Now I'm wondering if I should buy the upright I've had my eye on in December, or just keep saving for maybe another 2 years until I can afford a decent grand.

Bamburg, I don't know if your looking at a dealer or a private sale. Many dealers will offer you a 'full value' trade-in, meaning the full price you paid, when you're ready to upgrade to a grand.

@Bamburg, I'd recommend waiting another 2 years for a grand. Dealers won't reduce the price of the grand as much when they know they have to factor in the trade-in as part of the sale (i.e., and the computation of their sales commission); salespeople are quick at fishing for that kind of information early on in the sales process.

From a design standpoint, I much dislike upright pianos. Even the +$50k ones are full of compromises. I prefer the compromises of the digitals over uprights.

I'm sure playing a grand is a completely different experience (never even tried one!), but I have a feeling that my 48" upright will last me a long time, and will still be a pleasure to play even if I should ever get really good in the future. And if I ever get a grand, it will certainly be well under €20k.

I can see why a professional classical pianist would dismiss uprights, it must be like riding a 50cc scooter in a MotoGP race, but for adults who sit at the piano just to make music and enjoy themselves, even a cheap upright provides a more engaging experience than most digitals. And I think somehow the fact that it is more difficult to play soft and fast on an upright has been a useful challenge and has helped me improve.

Very interesting experiences. I've had lessons with a few teachers over my first year and have yet to encounter any kind of snooty attitude towards digitals. A couple of them teach on digitals. I'm not sure if maybe this kind of thinking comes in the with the really expensive teachers with the most impressive CVs.

So far when comparing digitals to uprights the bettter uprights sound much better to me than any digital. The best I've tried so far has been the Yamaha YUS5. I thought it sounded far better than the Avant Grand N3 and was a real pleasure to play. Apparently the sound samples in digitals are archaic and not a lot is being done to improve upon them. I'm learning to use piano software with my laptop to get something sounding and playing much better through my digital. I'm not limiting it to just pianos either but lots of other instruments which are way ahead of what you would typically find on a digital with extra sounds (strings, harpsichord organs etc). The digital piano/keyboard/workstation is incredibly versatile especially when you start using them with a computer.

Yes you give a great analogy. It's interesting that Michael Schumacher drives a Fiat 500 normally when his other car is a Ferrari F1. I would take this one further. It may be better in acquiring the skill to drive an F1 car by driving in a F1 racing simulator than an ordinary real car because the ordinary car cannot achieve the speed or cornering characteristic of an F1 racing simulator. But obviously, there is a point where you are not working on acquiring skill, and just plan old enjoy the ride. I am pretty sure you are not keen on enjoying the ride when you're in an F1 simulator, but you need it because you cannot always be driving an F1 car. Even the pros spend a lot of time in these simulators. Lots of skills learned in the simulator transfer well when you get into the real thing. Lots of important things cannot be duplicated by the simulator either like G forces or road feel. That's like the difference between a good DP and a big 9 foot grand piano.