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#2290448 - 06/16/14 11:05 AM The Reign of ETD Tuners
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2406
...has officially begun, after PTG's accepting the use of ETD for the aural part of the examination.

In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!

Now, more technicians are obliged to increase their electronic device using skills, along with better understanding of computer software, hardware and mathematics.

Whether this era will last as long as the aural tuning era depends on the advent of new technologies, that will make digital pianos take over acoustic pianos altogether.
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#2290563 - 06/16/14 03:11 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2040
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Hakki


In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!


I think it means ETD tuners are on an equal footing as far as the test goes. The idea that aural tuners are out is a bit of a reach.
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2290573 - 06/16/14 03:22 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: David Jenson]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2406
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Hakki


In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!


I think it means ETD tuners are on an equal footing as far as the test goes. The idea that aural tuners are out is a bit of a reach.


You know water flows through the easy way.
Why would anybody bother with the cumbersome way in the future?
_________________________
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#2290590 - 06/16/14 03:50 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 898
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Hakki, you may want to consider that the PTG as long used ETDs to score the exam against the master tuning. Why might that be?

Like other scientific measuring devices, an ETD gives consistent measurements in terms of 'relative distance' from the intended target.

How do you know, for example, what 20C feels like? Perhaps you've learned to check your experience against the feedback of a thermostat/hygrometer?

Can you now see how this feedback could assist a student in the pedagogical process of learning aural tuning, and maybe even the technique of stability?
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler

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#2290591 - 06/16/14 03:50 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Every art class has more than a few sculptors who will artistically never amount to a hill of beans. But fear not, a big magnifying glass is the answer for them to better see what they cannot do.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2290628 - 06/16/14 05:33 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 511
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Hakki


In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!


I think it means ETD tuners are on an equal footing as far as the test goes. The idea that aural tuners are out is a bit of a reach.


You know water flows through the easy way.
Why would anybody bother with the cumbersome way in the future?


Tuning a piano well is hard work, there is no 'easy way' to do a high-quality and stable tuning, with or without an ETD. Setting a temperament is not that big of a deal.
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#2290668 - 06/16/14 07:08 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
BenP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/12
Posts: 163
Loc: South Jersey
With all due respect, Hakki, I think you are making this way bigger of a deal than it actually is.
_________________________
Ben Patterson
Part-time Piano Tech
Rural South Jersey

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#2290681 - 06/16/14 07:28 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
Bosendorff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 262
An ETD is just a tool. It can help to tune faster and minimize interval adjustments (when not an expert), but most of the time it can't tune bass strings correctly, so you still need to use your ears anyway.

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#2290732 - 06/16/14 09:10 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: BenP]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2040
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: BenP
With all due respect, Hakki, I think you are making this way bigger of a deal than it actually is.

+1
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2290737 - 06/16/14 09:17 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: BenP]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 526
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: BenP
With all due respect, Hakki, I think you are making this way bigger of a deal than it actually is.


And I recall the number of times people went around the Mulberry bush with Mr Hakki over a related subject not all that long ago.

Aural tuners are here to stay.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2290741 - 06/16/14 09:29 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Emmery]
Herr Weiss Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 118
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Every art class has more than a few sculptors who will artistically never amount to a hill of beans. But fear not, a big magnifying glass is the answer for them to better see what they cannot do.


I went to Art School. The only useful thing that I learned was how to see. I have found a lot of money in the streets with that skill. smile


HW

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#2290774 - 06/16/14 11:15 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: Hakki
...has officially begun, after PTG's accepting the use of ETD for the aural part of the examination.

In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!

Now, more technicians are obliged to increase their electronic device using skills, along with better understanding of computer software, hardware and mathematics.

Whether this era will last as long as the aural tuning era depends on the advent of new technologies, that will make digital pianos take over acoustic pianos altogether.


I am an ETD tuner, and I can't think of a reason why I will ever not be an ETD tuner. That said, I am learning to tune by ear. Yeah, I can honestly say that I hate it. It's hard and frustrating, but so was learning to tune unisons by ear. If you can't be bothered to even attempt to learn to tune a temperament and midrange octaves aurally, then I think that's sad. The minimum requirements that the PTG asks for in the tuning exam are very generous--too generous. I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous.
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#2290778 - 06/16/14 11:22 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2040
Loc: Maine
"I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous." beethoven986

You're right. It appears to be one of those types of over-the-top statements designed to stir controversy. So far the attempt has fallen pretty flat.
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2290780 - 06/16/14 11:23 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: David Jenson]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 511
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
"I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous." beethoven986

You're right. It appears to be one of those types of over-the-top statements designed to stir controversy. So far the attempt has fallen pretty flat.


I like to call it, high-drama.
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#2290787 - 06/16/14 11:56 PM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1912
Loc: Philadelphia area
This topic isn't ridiculous. It is important for aspiring piano technicians to learn to tune aurally. Yes it takes effort to learn and Yes it is worth the effort. I started out using the Sanderson accu-tuner and after two years I developed the hammer technique and listening skills to tune aurally with confidence. I never have considered turning back. Aural tuning skills are the foundation for voicing. Its wonderful to truly hear a piano.

Riding a bike is a lot more fun when you take the training wheels off.

Enjoy.

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#2290799 - 06/17/14 12:41 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Dave B]
A443 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 898
Loc: Vienna-Houston-Tokyo
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Aural tuning skills are the foundation for voicing. Its wonderful to truly hear a piano.
That is not really true...

I teach students to make small voicing adjustment (i.e., with a single string voicer), before they learn to tune unisons. From the beginning, it encourages them to actively/constantly 'listen' to tonal details while they are tuning single strings with an ETD--many technicians believe ETDs create non-thinking/listening tuners, which is not at all the case, when done properly.

Learning to tune unisons with earplugs, and [loud] noise in the environment, is VERY important. I've long advocated tandem tunings: two people on the same piano tuning, one section apart; one tuner sets the strings to the ETD and the other pulls in the unisons. This is excellent training, and great for multiple passes that get the piano stabilised (i.e., strings rendered and pins set) to a point where it is finally ready to be tuned aurally (e.g., closer than 1/2 cent).

Once a tuner can tune comfortably under the aforementioned conditions, learning to recognise/feel beat-rates to tune aurally is less of a traumatic experience. It's ideal in an institutional settings for training multiple student tuning assistants.
_________________________
Klavierbaukünstler

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#2290829 - 06/17/14 03:04 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2319
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
On a cold and frosty morning.

Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
So early in the morning.

Here we go round the peeaaanoo
The peeaaanoo,
The peeaaanoo,
Here we round the peeaaanoo,
Again n again n again



Edited by Grandpianoman (06/17/14 03:07 AM)

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#2290865 - 06/17/14 06:52 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1072
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Guys,

If anyone has been following Hakki's posts, you will remember that he lamented over not being able to convince two university tuners to do aural tunings, presumably because he felt the ETD tunings done by those tuners were lacking.

Now he posts this controversial thread.

He's just not to be taken seriously, IMHO.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2290871 - 06/17/14 07:17 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: A443]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Aural tuning skills are the foundation for voicing. Its wonderful to truly hear a piano.
That is not really true...

I teach students to make small voicing adjustment (i.e., with a single string voicer), before they learn to tune unisons. From the beginning, it encourages them to actively/constantly 'listen' to tonal details while they are tuning single strings with an ETD--many technicians believe ETDs create non-thinking/listening tuners, which is not at all the case, when done properly.


Great, why not. I only pretend that looking at an ETD slows the ear, unless you tune first look later, the listening mode changes. The eyes are way less fast that the ear, and the ETD is faster than the ears, or seem to be. What would be useful is if the ET showed a time graph of pitch and volume ,not "real time" we cannot really be sure what is shown as it does not relate well to what we hear.

You hardly can tune an immediate tone with ETD's, usually one wait until the display is quiet, so the justness is attained by a late tone.

I think that even on experienced tuners, the way the ETD modify your way of listening is very subtle and pass unnoticed.

Then there are some listening modes the ear/brain are not using at all, it turns to a precision work vs the ETD, some of the "spirit" of tuning is lost, an I have seen lost of interest for tuning due to abuse of ETD (up to a colleague that stopped concert tuning as he find it annoying, the way it goes).

What I did not get is that we are then sticking to an ET model, and quieten a lot the piano's own resonances, so in the en the "in tune" sensation reflects more the model than the instrument. At some point there is a dissociation.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2290874 - 06/17/14 07:23 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2040
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Guys,

If anyone has been following Hakki's posts, you will remember that he lamented over not being able to convince two university tuners to do aural tunings, presumably because he felt the ETD tunings done by those tuners were lacking.

Now he posts this controversial thread.

He's just not to be taken seriously, IMHO.

+1
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2290880 - 06/17/14 07:49 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: beethoven986]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
I am an ETD tuner, and I can't think of a reason why I will ever not be an ETD tuner. That said, I am learning to tune by ear. Yeah, I can honestly say that I hate it. It's hard and frustrating, but so was learning to tune unisons by ear. If you can't be bothered to even attempt to learn to tune a temperament and midrange octaves aurally, then I think that's sad.

Beethoven, I commend you. Your attitude is why some go from being a good tuner to a great tuner.

Good on ya!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2290887 - 06/17/14 08:10 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2040
Loc: Maine
As an aural tuner I tried several ETD devices. I really couldn't get interested in them. Using them involved to much fiddling, extra equipment and expense. There are tools in the catalogs that I don't buy, and ETD stuff is solidly in that category.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2290890 - 06/17/14 08:13 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: beethoven986]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Hakki
...has officially begun, after PTG's accepting the use of ETD for the aural part of the examination.

In short this means: Aural tuners OUT, ETD tuners IN!

Now, more technicians are obliged to increase their electronic device using skills, along with better understanding of computer software, hardware and mathematics.

Whether this era will last as long as the aural tuning era depends on the advent of new technologies, that will make digital pianos take over acoustic pianos altogether.


I am an ETD tuner, and I can't think of a reason why I will ever not be an ETD tuner. That said, I am learning to tune by ear. Yeah, I can honestly say that I hate it. It's hard and frustrating, but so was learning to tune unisons by ear. If you can't be bothered to even attempt to learn to tune a temperament and midrange octaves aurally, then I think that's sad. The minimum requirements that the PTG asks for in the tuning exam are very generous--too generous. I think the premise of this thread is utterly ridiculous.


Hi ! Listening with an ETD and listening for tuning are 2 different things, ask Raphael, who have good ears and the experience, if you do not trust me.


Try to do that : tweaking unison , no mutes, strong radio/music noise in background :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQb19hSWUydG1IYjQ/edit?usp=sharing

If you can do so you should have no trouble to listen to whatever interval activity.

If when learning tuning one is properly shown how to listen and what to listen for, the listening part of the job can soon be apprehended (then refined with experience )

The ones that defend the use of ETD for the exam because they use it, possibly have forget that they have first learned to tune before using the ETD.
I think it is a disservice to younger persons that want to enter the trade.

That said I dont know what is the basic level with the RPT diploma, I have seen a colleague that was initially RPT , in nee of some lessons to understand how to obtain a pleasing tone. When he worked here he realized he was doing things differently an ha to learn local ways (may I say international ways as the instructor was a Yamaha tech)

Here also whatever the exam is, the way practical learning have been conducted determines the quality of the technician, I mean, where is he working when not at school, on what class of instruments, for which type of customer.

Regards




Edited by Olek (06/17/14 08:16 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2290923 - 06/17/14 09:23 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2406
Those who have not foreseen PTG's move should better take this SERIOUSLY and consider revising their business model.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2290933 - 06/17/14 09:40 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
adamp88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 133
Loc: Omaha, NE
Hakki, as an outsider to the field, I don't really think you are in a position to be counseling other technicians about the writing on the wall.
_________________________
Adam Schulte-Bukowinski
Piano Technician
Associate Member, PTG

ASB Piano Service
Omaha, NE

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#2290941 - 06/17/14 09:46 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2406
Read my signature.

edit: And it won't take long for PTG to allow the use of ETD in any part of the exam (unisons etc.)


Edited by Hakki (06/17/14 10:21 AM)
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2290974 - 06/17/14 10:37 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Hakki]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 511
Loc: USA
Me,me,me,me,me,I,I,I,I,I,me,me,me. That one?
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#2290977 - 06/17/14 10:43 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Jbyron]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2406
Originally Posted By: Jbyron
Me,me,me,me,me,I,I,I,I,I,me,me,me. That one?


No.

The O,o,o,o,o,o,t,t,t,t,t,o,o,o,o one.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2290978 - 06/17/14 10:54 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Dave B]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1635
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Dave B
...
Aural tuning skills are the foundation for voicing.


This is a good point, Dave, definite article excepted. One voicing seminar in particular has a reputation for leaving techs with AHS (Aching hand syndrome wink )
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicĉ

"Not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child." - Cicero

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#2290980 - 06/17/14 11:00 AM Re: The Reign of ETD Tuners [Re: Minnesota Marty]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1635
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
I am an ETD tuner, and I can't think of a reason why I will ever not be an ETD tuner. That said, I am learning to tune by ear. Yeah, I can honestly say that I hate it. It's hard and frustrating, but so was learning to tune unisons by ear. If you can't be bothered to even attempt to learn to tune a temperament and midrange octaves aurally, then I think that's sad.

Beethoven, I commend you. Your attitude is why some go from being a good tuner to a great tuner.

Good on ya!


Ditto smile
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicĉ

"Not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child." - Cicero

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