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#2292538 - 06/20/14 12:24 PM Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
I just aquired a Baldwin 243 45" console piano. I do a little tuning myself but I am definitely NOT a piano tech. I am what is known as a Tooner. I have probably tuned about 100 pianos and my tunings are starting to sound okay, not perfect but I can usually leave the piano much much better than when I started. I don't tune for a living or anything, just my piano and a couple of churches that I donate tunings to. My questions are as follows:

1. The Baldwin piano has a very "barky" sound from two notes before the break on the keyframe and goes up for about 8 notes. After that the tone goes back to normal. It seems that the dampers are coming off the string and I don't see anything with the bridge, but still it has this weird sound. It seems less when I very softly strike the note.

2. How do you get wedge mutes between the strings in that upper section of the 243? Do you even bother with wedge mutes or do you just use a felt strip?

By the way, the piano is vintage 1979 or 1980.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#2292581 - 06/20/14 02:01 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1819
Loc: Conway, AR USA
The 243 is a studio upright. Not sure what you mean by "barky." (Could be hard damper felt? Really need to hear it.) Use the thin small rubber wedge mutes or papps treble mute for the upper section. Best wishes.


Edited by bkw58 (06/20/14 02:14 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2292694 - 06/20/14 06:18 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Ed A. Hall Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 266
Check to see if the bridge has separated from the soundboard in the effected area.

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#2292699 - 06/20/14 06:35 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
Where is the 'barking' coming from. The soundboard or the keybed?

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#2292781 - 06/20/14 10:40 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1819
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Good possibilities. Loose rib(s), too. Apply pressure against the bridge and/or rib(s), play the notes in question and see if this quiets the "barking."
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2292793 - 06/20/14 11:08 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2349
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Yah, when I hear the term "Barky" used to describe the tone of notes in the area of the treble strut-I think loose bridge.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2292794 - 06/20/14 11:10 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3886
Second the bridge separation, especially if the piano has been exposed to moisture -
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#2292829 - 06/21/14 02:37 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Upon closer inspection it is the bridge. It is separated, not from the soundboard but from itself. There is a crack in the middle of the bridge that goes from left to right. Any ideas on repairing this? I'll try to take a pic of the crack and post it tomorrow.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#2292853 - 06/21/14 06:13 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
New bridge top, eventually on the damaged part but it sound more secure to change it all (lot of work)

Impregnation epoxy pressing strong together the Crack so it close. Pin holes better fit with wood dowels at the moment. Bore again, new pins.

There is no way I know to reinforce, but the epoxy filled wood must resist well.

That is penetrating epoxy, for wood reinforcement, fiberglass building may be. The hardest quality available.

I am not saying tone quality will be ideal, just that it hold. The different material at some point in the bridge may refrain the vibes to pass.
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#2292880 - 06/21/14 08:40 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Olek]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3886
Originally Posted By: Olek
New bridge top, eventually on the damaged part but it sound more secure to change it all (lot of work)

Impregnation epoxy pressing strong together the Crack so it close. Pin holes better fit with wood dowels at the moment. Bore again, new pins.

There is no way I know to reinforce, but the epoxy filled wood must resist well.

That is penetrating epoxy, for wood reinforcement, fiberglass building may be. The hardest quality available.

I am not saying tone quality will be ideal, just that it hold. The different material at some point in the bridge may refrain the vibes to pass.


On a Baldwin, loose bridge caps or hammer felts indicate moisture damage - I've done this repair with not great results as the tone has usually suffered. The rest of the piano will probably have some moisture damage in addition to the bridge cap that is presenting issues right now. That may show up at a later date. The best long term option given today's market might be to trade the piano for another one.
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#2293072 - 06/21/14 04:30 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Well, I have an update on this. The bridge cap has a small crack up near the far right, not where the barky sound is. The bridge cap does not appear to be centered on the bridge. As it goes from high to low it gets offset by about an 1/8 of an inch. The bridge cap is 1/8th higher than the bridge at the low end. I can't see any other cracks or loose ribs and after pulling the action where I could get a better look, I don't see any further separation or cracks. The ribs seem to be tight too. The barky sound is on the attack of the notes and they don't seem to sustain as they should. I can't detect any moisture damage and in fact the piano had a dehumidifier bar installed inside. It originally came from a church so could have been in a damp basement. Overall the piano seems in great condition except for that barky sound in the mid treble. At this point, unless it's the offset bridge cap, I'm still not sure what it is. I tried to take pics of this but I just couldn't get them clear enough to show you anything. Since this is behind the strings my camera kept focusing on the strings and the wood behind was a tad fuzzy.


Edited by Pianolance (06/21/14 04:31 PM)
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#2293083 - 06/21/14 04:45 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
if pushing on the unglued part stops the noise you could glue that back and secure with screws.

basic quest for such trouble cause is to push anwhere you think off and see if there is a change.

you can listen with the ear on a big screwdriver too, it may sometime help to locate more precisely buzzes
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2293149 - 06/21/14 07:43 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3886
It most likely is the offset bridge cap. I've seen a few here - and most of them on Baldwins - and all subject to moisture.....
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www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#2296817 - 06/30/14 02:49 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Okay,I have been doing some further investigation on this problem. It's definitely the offset bridge cap. I pushed down hard on the bridge cap and the sound cleared up immediately. The bridge is separated from the cap and there is a small gap between the cap and the bridge. The question is - how can I fix this. I was thinking of removing the strings and regluing the bridge cap. I would only have to remove about an octave of strings. My question is how would I clamp the bridge to the cap? I would realign the cap and glue it back on straight. I'm guessing that there isn't much downbearing weight on this part of the bridge. I want to take a stab at this, but could use some guidance. Any helpful suggestions would be welcome.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#2296848 - 06/30/14 05:40 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Titebond with a syringue , then use screws to tighten (bore the screws holes before putting the glue, tighten from inside to outside, for position, then leave the extreme screw tight , unscrew the others and screw back from external to internal (so to push more glue in the thin unglued portion .

You tighten the screws without any glue first.

May be you will need to force the part in position, front to back, then no boring without the piece in place.

The cap is secured and located with the bridge pins so I guess you will not have much problems with that once the strings do not pull anymore.

You just need to take the tension out and dismount a few strings only from the plate pins, for access. (enough to clean the glue excess from the sides with a wet cloth).

Thin blades as the one used to measure in mechanics are OK but the bridge pins will be in the way, so a syringe is better.
I would probably raise with wedges a little so any brittle gluing will expand

Use brass screws so they are easy to get out,(and look more nice) leave only one for security, close the holes of the other with wooden dowels.

I would tap a very little each bridge pin before the glue set.

If it was glued with hide glue -(improbable) I would use liquid hide as Titebond.


Unless you use soundboard/rib clamps (with a threaded rod passing thru the parts, or a piano strings) you will need to have a hole in the bridge cap so the screws are really tightening both parts together (better conical screws, not the cylindrical ones, while some are cutting correctly their thread in new wood) some wax on the screw helps not to crack the wood.

THe problem with boring is that some chips of wood may go below the bridge cap. something to blow them must be necessary (a pipe for drinks may be enough)

If accessible, long threaded rod with washers can do it, but unless they are large enough I doubt the pressure is large.

I like the presses done with a hard wood block, a tuning pin and a piano wire 14.



The long hole can be drilled using a piece of piano wire in the drill

If the cap is cracked all along it will be more difficult indeed., but you mostly want to damp that noise.

There is no much DB in high treble usually , but the strings being short it happens there is a large angle.As the panel is small and very stiff it rarely cause trouble. 0.5° front is yet enough.


Edited by Olek (06/30/14 10:54 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2296888 - 06/30/14 08:58 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1819
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Is it a vertically laminated bridge?


Edited by bkw58 (06/30/14 10:42 AM)
Edit Reason: clarity
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2297567 - 07/02/14 01:59 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Further update. Upon looking more and more at the problem I decided I needed to loosen all the strings on the offset area of the bridge. I loosened them and slid the strings off the hitch pins. The bridge cap just fell off completely. It wasn't attached at all. There was a light layer of glue on the bottom of the cap and the face of the bridge but the two pieces of wood were not even in the slightest fastened together. I took off the bridge cap and looked at the glue side. The bridge pins actually extend a very small amount past the bottom of the cap. My current theory is that this wood might have been slightly too green or uncured upon installation and after it sat for awhile it shrunk just enough for the bridge pins to push the cap away from the bridge below. Now I have a new dilemma. How can I re-glue the bridge cap on the bridge with pins sticking out of the bottom of it? They aren't sticking out much but certainly enough to keep the bridge cap from gluing wood to wood with the bridge. I have thought of trying to us a file but that would be tedious as there are about 50 bridge pins affected. Any idea's? Thanks for the help.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#2297606 - 07/02/14 06:58 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
good analysis, see to me. I would try to see if the replacement pins I can buy are not also a hair larger (this is the case often and it helps)

while everything is dismounted you can have a close look at bridge terminations and clean what need to be.

There are generally index holes that you can reuse so when tightening the part do not slip


Edited by Olek (07/02/14 06:59 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2298065 - 07/03/14 01:56 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Here are four pics of the bass bridge section that wasn't glued down. Sorry about the clumsy sharing of links, I've put pics on Pianoworld before but for some reason, even following the directions, I couldn't get them to post correctly. Please click on the links below to see the bridge cap and my delema for gluing it back down.

Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1m0KLbk4Tp-M3JUaDJvZWNEREE/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1m0KLbk4Tp-RWxSdlZyNFFDS0E/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1m0KLbk4Tp-ZVlFbFpKVFc3OVE/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1m0KLbk4Tp-dm9mM1U1RmwwZlE/edit?usp=sharing
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#2298093 - 07/03/14 04:49 AM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
This is much wrong.

I cannot say much.

Is it from a reputed brand? Incompétence, I would say.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2298282 - 07/03/14 02:36 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Well, I'm making progress on this. I did manage to drive the pins that were extruding out of the bottom of the cap back up ever so slightly so I could get a tight fitting glue joint. I sanded off the old layer of glue, which wasn't much, and reglued the cap on. I had to drive three screws through the cap into the bridge to clamp as I could figure out no other way to clamp the bridge. After it sits for a day I will remove the three screws, then I will restring that section and tune it. Hopefully, at this point my piano will sound like a piano again and not like a dog barking while playing the piano. I'll let you know how it turns out.


Edited by Pianolance (07/03/14 02:37 PM)
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#2298292 - 07/03/14 02:52 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I told you about screws, seem to me.

Very agréable. Is it because I am not.... ?


Edited by Olek (07/03/14 02:55 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2298322 - 07/03/14 04:03 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Olek]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5317
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Olek
This is much wrong.

I cannot say much.

Is it from a reputed brand? Incompétence, I would say.

You are right -- there was a lot wrong with the design of that bridge.

There was no "dogleg" (or offset) in the curve of the bridge across the scale break. The tensions on the treble side were reasonable but on the tenor side they were very high. Upwards of 90 kgf if memory serves.

For many years it was worse but at some point in that model's design history someone had made an attempt to improve the scaling without building a proper bridge. They did this by simply offsetting the pins on each side of the scale break as can be seen in the last of the photos. As you can see the bridge pins right next to the scale break are very close together.

Bridge failure was fairly common on pianos using this scale. During the late 1980s I redesigned that scale and one of the battles I had with management was over the bridge; I wanted to modify it by putting a dogleg in there so the scale tensions could be equalized across the break but that made the bridge a little more expensive to build.

In the end we compromised -- I got some of the offset I wanted but not all of it. They were still able to make new bridge design on the same equipment. At best I can say that the new design is considerably less bad than the original. Which is not to say it was great.

ddf
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Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2298373 - 07/03/14 07:07 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Olek]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Yes Olek, I used your suggestion and appreciate the input. Screws were the only way I could figure out how to clamp the cap onto the bridge. There was absolutely no way to clamp it without them. I thought about putting the piano on its back and trying to clamp it with weight such as a sand bag, but I didn't have enough room to do that. I used three screws. I pre drilled everything and then wiped off all of the wood chips created by the drill bit. I drilled the cap on my drill press and then drilled into the bridge with a hand drill. I plan to leave the screws in place if they don't end up interfering with the strings, but I might have to remove them when I restring. That remains to be seen. I appreciate the help.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#2299920 - 07/08/14 04:27 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: Pianolance]
mupianotech Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 35
Loc: Huntington WV
I have seen quite a few Hamiltons with this. The bridge cap glue joint fails. The fail can be only a few notes or an octave in span. If you're lucky it won't happen directly behind the key bed.
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Piano Technician Senior, Emeritus
Marshall University
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#2299926 - 07/08/14 04:41 PM Re: Barky Sound from 59 to 68 on a Baldwin 243 [Re: mupianotech]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: mupianotech
I have seen quite a few Hamiltons with this. The bridge cap glue joint fails. The fail can be only a few notes or an octave in span. If you're lucky it won't happen directly behind the key bed.


The pins are suppose to go within the bridge and not stay "half installed" that way.
Yet normal bridge pins tend to raise in time, those ones may have pushed on the cap because of seasonal wood motion under them.
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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