Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2293280 - 06/22/14 02:24 AM Chorales #14 and #15
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Enjoy. smile

#14:



#15:

_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
Piano & Music Acc. / Sheet Music


Sheet Music Plus Homepage
#2293391 - 06/22/14 11:58 AM Re: Chorales #14 and #15 [Re: Polyphonist]
Steve Chandler Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2760
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
I don't like the spelling of the first chord of #15 (and same in bar 5). The Gb and G# creates a cross relationship that would be resolved if you spelled it with Ab and then naturaled it.

Top
#2293402 - 06/22/14 12:50 PM Re: Chorales #14 and #15 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
My spelling is correct and that would be wrong.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2293477 - 06/22/14 04:27 PM Re: Chorales #14 and #15 [Re: Polyphonist]
Steve Chandler Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2760
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
My spelling is correct and that would be wrong.
If you've got a reason you think it's correct then you should explain it as I did. Since this piece obviously uses common practice theory perhaps you would explain what chord it is that contains a double augmented octave. Or were you thinking a moment of bi-tonality with an augmented third in one chord? The only other thing I could think of is that the motion is upward and you think that necessitates using a sharp. It doesn't in this case when everything else is in a B flat. A natural accomplishes the same thing. I've given you three possibilities but I'm sure you'll come up with something different so please let me know what it is.

Top
#2293528 - 06/22/14 06:29 PM Re: Chorales #14 and #15 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Ab would imply a flat seventh. It isn't a flat seventh, it's an appoggiatura to the A. Therefore, the G# is the correct spelling. The harmony is a diminished seventh over a tonic pedal. The G# doesn't confuse me at all. The Ab would, though.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2293577 - 06/22/14 09:39 PM Re: Chorales #14 and #15 [Re: Polyphonist]
Steve Chandler Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2760
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Ab would imply a flat seventh. It isn't a flat seventh, it's an appoggiatura to the A. Therefore, the G# is the correct spelling. The harmony is a diminished seventh over a tonic pedal. The G# doesn't confuse me at all. The Ab would, though.

So your Ebs are suspended fourths resolving as parallel octaves to D. Still whether you like it or not the G# sounds like a flatted seventh moving up to major seventh. Obviously your ear hears something different. C'est la vie.

Top
#2293580 - 06/22/14 09:41 PM Re: Chorales #14 and #15 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Indeed.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2294732 - 06/25/14 09:26 AM Re: Chorales #14 and #15 [Re: Polyphonist]
larryz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/11
Posts: 98
Loc: sweden
Today is a theory day smile

Appoggiatura: this is when we leap into a non-chord-tone and step-out of it (into a chord-tone).

4-3 suspension:

the name suspension means we hold a voice in a chord tone, while the other voices move to an other chord,
this leaves our voice now being a non-chord-tone.

The 4-3 part refers to how we resolve the dissonance introduced by helding the voice.
The number 4 means the voice will have a interval of four in the new chord, which is a non-chord-tone.
By letting the voice step-down to interval 3, it will now be a chord-tone.

Seventh:

A normal fifth-scale degree chord in the key of C is the G chord. It is composed of the
notes G, B, D. If we add a seventh (the diatonic / white piano key) which is the F, we end up
with a fifth-scale degree seventh chord, which functions as a dominant (but that is an other discussion).
If we add a diminished seventh, it would not function as a dominant (*).

Diminished:
Take any interval and shorten it by a semitone. This is the opposite of augmenting.
A diminished seventh would equal an flat seventh in this case where the key denotes a flatting to accomplish a diminishing.

Pedal:
Just a voice held over a period (usually several bars), the note held will finally be part of a chord.
And therefor functions as a hint to the listener about where we are moving.
During the period the voice is held, the other voices will move, causing dissonance.

Tonic: A function that in the modes of Major and the minor keys are carried by the first note of their scales.

The Bb (B-flat) Major key:
This key is composed of the diatonic notes: Bb C D Eb F G A. Where did I get them? Just spell out each line and space in the staff.
The scale-degree chords (in roman numerals) with added seventh for reference:
Code:
chord___1 ___ 3_____5____ 7 _ Description
I _____ Bb    D     F     A   Major
ii ____ C     Eb    G     Bb  minor
iii_____D     F     A     C   minor
IV ____ Eb    G     Bb    D   Major
V _____ F     A     C     Eb  Major
vi ____ G     Bb    D     F   minor
viiš____A     C     Eb    G   minor-diminished


To briefly discuss the chord I going to iii, which can maybe explain some of the reason Gb is used:
If we are in I (notes Bb D F), and want to go into iii (Eb G C), we could hint/adjust the ear, by using the dominant and leading tones, which both are unstable notes wanting to resolv into the nearest interval of third.
where the leading tone steps up a semitone into tonic. And dominant steps down from the semitone above third.
In the case of iii, the tonic-note is D, and the third is F (look at the chord-chart for iii).
This would mean the leading-note is C# and dominant note is Gb.
(*) We can now see how a dimished seventh would "undershoot" and land directly on the third of our target chord.


With this under our belt we (I) can tackle the short, but explosively compact replies.
Quote:

Ab would imply a flat seventh. It isn't a flat seventh, it's an appoggiatura to the A. Therefore, the G# is the correct spelling. The harmony is a diminished seventh over a tonic pedal.


So your Ebs are suspended fourths resolving as parallel octaves to D. Still whether you like it or not the G# sounds like a flatted seventh moving up to major seventh.



Decoding examples:

"Ab would imply a flat seventh"

A is the seventh diatonic note, and if we flat this, we end up with Ab, ie a diminished seventh with respect to the Tonic note Bb.

"The harmony is a diminished seventh over a tonic pedal."

Tonic here hints that we should take the first scale-degree. Tuck on the interval of seventh-diminished,
which is then the notes: Bb and Ab.

"So your Ebs are suspended fourths resolving as parallel octaves to D"

Looking in our list of diatonic notes, we have Eb as the fourth-scale-degree note.
Taking this note and resolving it properly ( down a semitone ) we end up at D, ie a 4-3 suspension.
Calling the note a fourth, also implies the root-chord-note is Bb, which also happens to be the tonic in the key.
So we should have the other voices move to Bb (D) F (A), where D would be doubled, and A is the seventh.
Which also happens in the first bar:

Bass pedals at Bb, when relieved, it appogiatures via fourth (of chord I) into the next bar to root-note (of chord iii) being note D.

Tenor forms a harmony of diminished sixth together with bass. Which appogiatures into fifth (of chord I).
Then prepares the next chord by moving into first (still of chord I), which move by step into the seventh (of chord iii)

Alto begins dissonating at the fourth scale degree. Resolves into the third (D). Goes to fifth, neighbor notes via fourth into the third (of chord iii).

Soprano appogiatures from the implied Bb (found as the last note in the last bar at the same voice), through the sixth into the seventh. My account to why denote G# instead of Ab is to make it clear to the performer the voice actually moves. This is permittable because with chorales we are dealing foremost with voiceleading where any form of harmony is subordinate.
The soprano then does a second appogiatures to the fourth, resolving to the third (D). Then goes via first chord-tone (Bb) finally to sixth.
Curiosly The sixth is the next chords (iii) fourth. Which make me wonder if we should continue with the 4-3 suspension recipy. This would be possible if we made that last note of soprano a halv note (instead of the doubled F in next bar). Though it would resolv upwards to Ab, which is not allowed.

Phew! That was only one bar. Those eight bars suddenly doesn't look so short nor trivial blush laugh

Please comment any fault in my probably fault ridden analysis!
Sorry for any induced brain-ache!

Top
#2295399 - 06/26/14 04:37 PM Re: Chorales #14 and #15 [Re: Polyphonist]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
larryz, you are confusing minor and diminished intervals.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Coolest Back Action I have Seen
by Steve Jackson
30 minutes 58 seconds ago
Steinway piano with two offset keyboards
by guyl
Today at 10:36 AM
Black and white dampers
by iLaw
Today at 09:55 AM
AUGUST FORSTER
by Karl Watson
Today at 09:05 AM
Piano lessons: every week or every two weeks?
by Pover
Today at 06:34 AM
Who's Online
144 registered (ando, ajames, Almaviva, Alexander Borro, anamnesis, angga888, 41 invisible), 1525 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76639 Members
42 Forums
158470 Topics
2327173 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission