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#2300839 - 07/10/14 05:43 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: A454.7]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: bkw58
My remarks were specific to "...feeling the hammer through the key, which today," as someone earlier asserted, "is next to impossible." Notwithstanding this problem or that, any particular year or model, Steinway is still one of the very few grand pianos capable of "feeling the hammer through the key" by a tech who knows how to properly regulate one. (Not that there is only one way to regulate these given the changing variables through the years.) It is my experience that such - again, feeling the hammer through the key - is more likely achievable with a 100% S&S, as opposed to a S&S hybrid. This is one reason why to disembowel a S&S and insert non-S&S technology - well intentioned as it may be - is a mistake. Another reason is wholly related to investment. Not a few investment-minded pianists have resale value in view from the outset. To them, a 100% Steinway (however the maker elects to define it at any given time - its exclusive prerogative) is a more sound investment than a S&S hybrid. In a few years I'll be gone. The Steinway name, history and how it defines its own instruments will transcend my name and any and all pianos that I rebuilt.
With all due respect bkw58, with mystically-hyped statements like these--without any thought or reason--it is probably a good thing that you are retired. The fact that you would speak out so fervently against something without your own comparative analysis/experience is really sad; age is no excuse for a lack of experience.


Thanks A443. You're all heart.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2300934 - 07/10/14 11:39 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2414
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
BKW58,
The old Steinways had very light hammers and higher than average leverage, compared to most other pianos. If when I rebuild one I use new parts that include heavier hammers and reduced leverage-I have just made a "Steinwas".

The great tradition of instrument making is to use the best materials and methods that produce the most dynamic, colorful, stable and long lasting tone qualities. That is the tradition I employ.

Now which way is the "Steinway " or "Steinwas"?
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2300993 - 07/11/14 06:45 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: bkw58]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: bkw58
My remarks were specific to "...feeling the hammer through the key, which today," as someone earlier asserted, "is next to impossible." Notwithstanding this problem or that, any particular year or model, Steinway is still one of the very few grand pianos capable of "feeling the hammer through the key" by a tech who knows how to properly regulate one. (Not that there is only one way to regulate these given the changing variables through the years.) It is my experience that such - again, feeling the hammer through the key - is more likely achievable with a 100% S&S, as opposed to a S&S hybrid. This is one reason why to disembowel a S&S and insert non-S&S technology - well intentioned as it may be - is a mistake. Another reason is wholly related to investment. Not a few investment-minded pianists have resale value in view from the outset. To them, a 100% Steinway (however the maker elects to define it at any given time - its exclusive prerogative) is a more sound investment than a S&S hybrid. In a few years I'll be gone. The Steinway name, history and how it defines its own instruments will transcend my name and any and all pianos that I rebuilt.
With all due respect bkw58, with mystically-hyped statements like these--without any thought or reason--it is probably a good thing that you are retired. The fact that you would speak out so fervently against something without your own comparative analysis/experience is really sad; age is no excuse for a lack of experience.


Thanks A443. You're all heart.


I apologize for A443 being rude. That is a bit of "forum effect" probably.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2301067 - 07/11/14 10:57 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
While I understand how/why many pianists and technicians fall victim of a corporate cult, pseudo-religious kind of mentally, there becomes a point at which it simply goes too far.

Espousing marketing mantra, without any thought or reason, and expecting other to buy those beliefs without using common sense is an affront to everything I have and continue to work for. Professional pianists need/want better pianos. They deal with what they are given, and there is nothing they can do about it. They are not getting the performance instruments they need because it would cost the manufacturer money to bring the quality back up to where it should be--it is simply a money issue.

I find it disgusting that my professional pianist friends, who devote their entire existence to their art, suffer on stage because making a better piano would slightly reduce corporate profits. This is a serious issue very close to my heart: I've devoted my entire life to uncovering piano knowledge that has been purposefully buried to save a few bucks--it is not a forum effect!

By admission, Bkw58 hasn't yet to experience these 'new' parts for himself, yet he allowed the effects of cooperate brainwashing to dictate his writings on the matter. The way I express myself may seem harsh, but to me, this is a very serious social injustice that I will continue to stand against. Bkw58, this is not personal, it is intellectual.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2301070 - 07/11/14 11:04 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
A443 - Why do you keep assuming that performing pianists are all suffering when playing fine pianos in excellent condition? It is simply not true that all performance pianos, in most parts of the world, aren't kept in excellent condition.

You really need to get out more and really find out what is available rather than constantly implying that you are the only one who has any skills. You rant on about what you perceive to be the condition of pianos in performance spaces.

It is simply untrue.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2301075 - 07/11/14 11:14 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I think that if pianists are not happy with an instrument they ask it to be tweaked to their liking.

Usually the grands that come from Hamburg are well regulated and relatively stable.

They certainly can have left a few defects but shoul not cause problems.

If you look at the parts ratios, the alignments, in a Steinway grand, there are things that looks they are not right.

But it works because of a certain number of points that are respected while regulating them. The sum of the operations makes the instrument responsive and musical.

When it comes to synthetic material whippens, on one side they look as a huge improvment, on the other they filter what comes from the string/hammer impact to the key, giing a more "dstant" sensation, less "direct" may be.
While it is certainly not a big concern, it is not my ideal of expressive instrument, where all that wooden noise and ibration feedback are coherent between the key an the hammer, mostly because they are all the same material.

You have more eveness, more ease to regulate (plus the extraordinary good idea for location an choice of whippen heel and knuckle from WNG) , but I regret the synthetic part is present in the touch as something "different" .
May be only because wooden whippens are vibrating , deforming as the wooden hammer shank, while the synthetic
parts are more rigid)

On the weight side, the wooden ones are lighter, while it may not count much at that point.

Regards.


Edited by Olek (07/11/14 11:22 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2301078 - 07/11/14 11:20 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2414
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Marty,
Do you think a 10YO Steinway D in a climate controlled concert hall that is used an average of 15 hours a week should be retired? That it somehow is no longer able to serve performing pianists? Steinway sales rep's often suggest this to concert venues based upon their experience with the C&A fleet, which causes many pianos to be damaged by all the moving and environmental changes they are subject to. But there are other reasons.

If so what would they be?

The way contemporary performing pianos are tone regulated is what is "wearing" them out. The old Steinways had lighter hammers in general and they last longer, and they take less hammer voicing to meet pianists needs.

Why you are so hostile to technicians who are treating pianists with great respect by trying to bring back and improve what is proven to work best for them? And many of these same technicians are trying to move the technology forward for the benefit of pianists.

Yet you persist in calling us "arrogant" or "self-promoters".

Fools we may well be!
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2301086 - 07/11/14 11:34 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Sure a hammer set in a concert hall is to be changed after 12 years of frequent evening of voicing or tweaks, they rarely are left more than 15. assuming the tech knows his job.

Now the ones that are moved so often for concert rental are in need of more care, not always done soon enough because of time constrain. But done at some point certainly.

And private rental "concert service" need to have some concert pianos less than 12 years old to have the agreement.

That is mostly to propose pianos that are in their best tonal range, before they stabilize in a slightly quieter mood D, then for decades.

New German pianos have generally a soundboard that is internally loaded with energy to the max, they have a "fast" voice, that may loose a little of that speed in that 12 years period.

But even then they are not "slow" soundboards.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2301097 - 07/11/14 12:03 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT

Why you are so hostile to technicians who are treating pianists with great respect by trying to bring back and improve what is proven to work best for them?

Ed, I wasn't addressing anything you said. In fact, this is to what I was responding:

Originally Posted By: A443
I find it disgusting that my professional pianist friends, who devote their entire existence to their art, suffer on stage because making a better piano would slightly reduce corporate profits.


A bit over the top, perhaps?

As a performing pianist, I simply do not find this to be the case. On the whole, performance pianos are kept in admirable condition. The world is not crashing down because of poorly kept performance pianos!

Performing pianists are not suffering in anything other than rare occasions. You, and others, are totally missing the point that I commend the fine tuner/techs who keep those instruments in performance ready condition. However, the legion of those who can work at a high level is not as small as you or others imply.

Any manufactured item can be tweeked. However, that is not due to poor quality or poor design, it is simply a difference in concept of the design and the manufacture of any product.

I simply do not believe that all new pianos need to be redesigned and/or be subjected to extensive rebuilding. Concert prep is different than a total re-do. The situation is not nearly as dire as you, and others, are implying.

What I have stated is based on my many years as a performing pianist. I am not without considerable experience and expertise.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2301112 - 07/11/14 12:52 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: A454.7]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: A443

By admission, Bkw58 hasn't yet to experience these 'new' parts for himself, yet he allowed the effects of cooperate brainwashing to dictate his writings on the matter. The way I express myself may seem harsh, but to me, this is a very serious social injustice that I will continue to stand against. Bkw58, this is not personal, it is intellectual.


A443:

Invariably you read into my posts things that are not there. I have neither the time nor the inclination to bandy words, and so lately I've let your comments slide. However, yours of today calls for a statement after which there shan't be another.

Your remark above is a specious syllogism based upon my reply to Ed on the previous page of this thread (p4).

I have experience with the so-called "new parts," carbon fibre, et al, first in harpsichord service and then in pianos. Specifically, I have no experience with Ed's S&S new rebuilds with his choice and use of new non-S&S parts. Nothing more. Nothing less. For this reason I have asked him if one of his S&S rebuilds might be in an area of TN. I plan to be in that area in the near future. My desire is to ascertain whether or not the touch in question is present in his S&S rebuilds. If it is, then fine. If not, then that's okay too.

If this not clear to you then so be it.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2301128 - 07/11/14 01:29 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Olek]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: bkw58
My remarks were specific to "...feeling the hammer through the key, which today," as someone earlier asserted, "is next to impossible." Notwithstanding this problem or that, any particular year or model, Steinway is still one of the very few grand pianos capable of "feeling the hammer through the key" by a tech who knows how to properly regulate one. (Not that there is only one way to regulate these given the changing variables through the years.) It is my experience that such - again, feeling the hammer through the key - is more likely achievable with a 100% S&S, as opposed to a S&S hybrid. This is one reason why to disembowel a S&S and insert non-S&S technology - well intentioned as it may be - is a mistake. Another reason is wholly related to investment. Not a few investment-minded pianists have resale value in view from the outset. To them, a 100% Steinway (however the maker elects to define it at any given time - its exclusive prerogative) is a more sound investment than a S&S hybrid. In a few years I'll be gone. The Steinway name, history and how it defines its own instruments will transcend my name and any and all pianos that I rebuilt.
With all due respect bkw58, with mystically-hyped statements like these--without any thought or reason--it is probably a good thing that you are retired. The fact that you would speak out so fervently against something without your own comparative analysis/experience is really sad; age is no excuse for a lack of experience.


Thanks A443. You're all heart.


I apologize for A443 being rude. That is a bit of "forum effect" probably.



Thank you, Isaac. There is no need for you to apologize. (That you do so speaks well of you.) Best wishes,
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

Top
#2301158 - 07/11/14 02:33 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: bkw58]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1241
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: bkw58

I have experience with the so-called "new parts," carbon fibre, et al, first in harpsichord service and then in pianos. Specifically, I have no experience with Ed's S&S new rebuilds with his choice and use of new non-S&S parts. Nothing more. Nothing less. For this reason I have asked him if one of his S&S rebuilds might be in an area of TN. I plan to be in that area in the near future. My desire is to ascertain whether or not the touch in question is present in his S&S rebuilds.


Greetings,
There are several in the practice rooms, several more out in the general public, and I think we may be moving one into an on campus facility in the very near future. Practice rooms will get their two year or three regulation before September, but that mainly consists of turning the capstans up a little. Sometimes the let-off needs to be gone through, too,but otherwise,the composite parts seem to just sit there, unfazed by the use.
Regards,

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#2301168 - 07/11/14 03:05 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Testing was certainly done, but I wonder what tonal result can be expected by balancing the keys with some front weight plus weight at the back.

Sure the keys may flex more, but can it send more power to the whippen/hammer, ue to more mass ?

I have read that the initial success of leading FortePianas was the raise in tone power (or apparent raise , I cannot really figure), but the more you feel the key the less the hammer acceleration is "at the tip of the fingers"

As a process to lighten anything, no, it does not, it provides more inertia that can help the sensations up to some point.

Sometime the piano is played lightly and slowly, that are the only conditions where the perfect leading is perceived.
What is "funny" is that as soon you begin to accelerate more, all the unevenness show up suddenly, jump at you, ratio difference between sharps and white keys, lead placement differences, may be if the hammers moldings are leaded this is also a cause of unevenness, the lead is not on the CG but lower and farther from the axis, so unless all hammers are leaded....

The contrast between the perfect balancing and the sudden dynamic behavior is surprising.

Anyway when I tested I perceived different dynamics, and as all hammers where not leaded the same that created unevenness and also some damping of the wood noise. It of course lowered the resonance frequency of the assembly so more low partials where exited, as when a shank is cut to the size of a match.

I took out the lead and the tone opened. The wood resonance may have more activity than we believe.





Edited by Olek (07/11/14 03:31 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2301176 - 07/11/14 03:24 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Minnesota Marty]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 860
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
A443 - Why do you keep assuming that performing pianists are all suffering when playing fine pianos in excellent condition? It is simply not true that all performance pianos, in most parts of the world, aren't kept in excellent condition.

You really need to get out more and really find out what is available rather than constantly implying that you are the only one who has any skills. You rant on about what you perceive to be the condition of pianos in performance spaces.

It is simply untrue.


I couldn't have said it any better myself! Thank you Marty for expressing my very thoughts and saving me the trouble of another diatribe to A443
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional

Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
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#2301205 - 07/11/14 04:48 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: SMHaley]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: SMHaley
I couldn't have said it any better myself! Thank you Marty for expressing my very thoughts and saving me the trouble of another diatribe to A443
Of the hundreds of concert pianists I have worked with over the years (i.e., professional artists that devote their entire existence to their art) none of them share either of your sentiments about piano excellence on concert stages these days. Of course there are some well maintained pianos out there; that is not the point--the vast majority of them are not! I am speaking from my experience.

How many times, SMHaley, have concert pianists contacted you in an hysterical panic because the local 'concert technician' couldn't get the piano to function? How many times have you dropped everything you were doing, hopped on a plane, and worked 50+ hours non-stop on a piano so that it would function in a concert? We are not talking about high standards here: we are talking about basic functionality. I don't get called-in when the pianos are fine, I get called-in when there is no hope, no one can help, and the pianist is on a verge of a mental break down because the keys don't go up-and-down. Shame on both of you for questioning my resolve and dedication to the arts.

Do you think I do that for the money? You think there is any money in doing that? My assistants and I do want we can to help great artists--most of whom I am proud to call close friends--when they plead for our help. Sometimes it comes at an even greater cost: about five years ago, when we were about c.70 hour [straight] into emergency concert prep, one of my assistants fell into a very serious lack of sleep-induced seizure while working on stage. All of the violent uncontrolled jerking about on the ground, loss of awareness/communication, foaming at the mouth, complete unresponsiveness, was a rather traumatic experience to go through and witness. It continued until after the police and paramedics arrived to rushed him to be hospitalised; I had to stay on stage and finish the work.

Neither of you may appreciate the work that I do, but then again, neither of you know me or my work. Everything I write about comes from own personal experience. If you don't like it, please ignore my posts entirely (i.e., instead of starting in with the defamatory sentiments).

If you'd like to discuss issues relating to piano technology and the piano performing arts, that's great! That is what I am here for: there aren't very many places/ways to learn about many of the things that I have discussed so far on this site (i.e., this is clearly not book knowledge; it comes through thoughtful experiences). There is plenty more to talk about.

SMHaley, I am still waiting to hear how wide you think piano hammers should be and how to determine that size exactly (i.e., since you also like to contradict my statements without any evidence and forethought). Let's discuss it. Hammers that are too wide have a detrimental cascading affect on the entire system. How much have YOU thought about that? Before I start, what kind of insight can you share with the public on the matter?
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2301209 - 07/11/14 05:05 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
But, hammers are wide for mass reasons, even if a part of the head is not used directly .

Centering them is possibly an advantage in time for wear, an gives a more even tone, string by string, but I stopped to think that was so important to have the 3 strings with exactly similar spectra, as long they have the same power and +- same dynamics.

There are limitations in the large dimension of the strike line, if the strings where to be more spaced at the strike, the keyboard would be larger and as it cannot really be done what happens is that the blocks are larger and the keys have a more pronounced angle, which is not excellent.

Now if the goal anyway is to have lighter hammers, sure there is some mass that can be shaped and taken out, but not all along the scale in my opinion. Also, less sharp hammers of today may be need more large felt to preserve the "active" felt rebound .

I have seen more too thick hammers in the 80's pianos than today.
That said I would not be surprised that some gremlin push the ankle of the designer when he is pouring himself a glass of hammer mass, and then he drops a little more mass, so there will be a little more power, you know the story... "the instrument can stand it" , and we finish with a 30g UW in basses...

Standards where and may be still are missing about the mass of the key, not for its inertia itself but as a sign of unue leverage somewhere.
Anyway if they exist it is only in the local culture of some factory. Out of the Stanwood measurements, this is not a common concept, while we talk in "number of leads" in the keys to say something about it.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2301214 - 07/11/14 05:18 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: A454.7]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21923
Loc: Oakland
I have been skeptical of A443's credentials since this exchange.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2301217 - 07/11/14 05:29 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
BDB, can you not observe the response of the piano by how the pianist uses her body? Did you not notice how she moved her muscles? Or how quickly in acceleration the keys moved to correspond with her input? You think that is a heavy piano right there?
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2301218 - 07/11/14 05:35 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Her arms are slightly lower, she is not having to use gravity to drop into the keys to get sound, she is relaxed, primarily using finger movement to get all the sound variation she needs/wants. She is not fighting with that piano. That is not a typical modern-day setup. Is the piano pretty? No, but it works and that 97 year old is amazing! Let me repeat: the piano works!
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2301225 - 07/11/14 05:55 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
I sense that Dorothy's ghost is about to visit us.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2301236 - 07/11/14 06:28 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Hi, I am sorry but she have to use gravity, as any pianist to be relaxed and free from arms to shoulders .

Due to the light action with worn centers and much use hammers, no way to have it heavy. I know that type of pianos, hopefully for that fine old lady it play easily.

Still there would be so much work to get really what the piano can do ...

The gravity is used as basic principle to keep the hand at the keyboard , harpsichord players eventually do not use much and keep their arms sustained a lot.
But on a piano, even if that was an old technique , she does not use it and play with a modern technique.

The hand low, allow the weight from the shoulders to flow in the keyboard easily when wanted.
That is on the contrary when the wrist is up that the pianist uses muscular force an impulse from the ankle to "enter" the keyboard with force.
But then if any note is hold the gravity immediately take the relay
The human arm even on a small or old person, weight much more than necessary to play FFFF even on a modern piano.
Now the effort on the wrist an fingers is not the same, as they receive I don't know exactly how much Kg of pressure directly induced by gravity.

The muscles at the back of the shoulders and back are here to make the arm light and free, hence the trauma pianist may experiment when they work too much, but those are relaxing as soon the hand can stay quiet of the keyboard, that mean, those muscles may learn to be instantly ready , more or less active and relax as often as possible.
That is why the good back posture matters as much, you cannot lift your arms with the shoulder muscles, this have to come from farther.

When they talk of "free fall" that is basically the back muscles that relax immediately. due to the kind of muscle they are this have to be learned and trained, as I suppose they also have some utility in our normal standing posture and tend to mobilize by themselves for different equilibrium corrections.
Keeping them mostly active for the arms imply a very strong position from the feet, legs and bottom, so the equilibrium can be maintained with minimal work from the "pianistic muscles"

That is how I understand the thing, globally.

Moving much the wrist is a mean to be aware of its position in space (and avoid blocking may be) a little as the tuner that waves his tuning lever to be sure to feel the pin...

Sorry long East wind writing there...




Edited by Olek (07/11/14 06:36 PM)
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#2301248 - 07/11/14 06:45 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Olek]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Olek
Due to the light action with worn centers and much use hammers, no way to have it heavy. I know that type of pianos, hopefully for that fine old lady it play easily.
BDB says: it is a "rebuilt Steinway A (probably an A-2), not particularly well tuned, and voiced a bit bright for my taste, although that may be the tuning. The only thing that distinguishes it from modern Steinway As is the preparation."

Because I disagreed that it looked like a "modern Steinway" by seeing how the nice lady is able to press the keys, he seemed to feel the need to question my "credentials" as opposed to my judgment.

My judgment remains: that is NOT a "modern Steinway" in terms of action response. Anyone with experience looking at pianists to see how they respond to the piano, in order to know needs to be done next to fix the situation, can see this pretty quickly. That is not a heavy "modern Steinway" rebuilt to today's standards.

Shall we talk about other issues that one can 'see' regarding the piano, based on experience and careful observation?


Edited by A443 (07/11/14 07:02 PM)
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2301257 - 07/11/14 07:02 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I would think a C or a D, while I dont know if the "smaller" models share that particular shape.
DUe to the way the tone rise in power , it cannot be a small one I think.

But I like to see the hammers wink are they in you taste A443 (flat & light ?) this take some plage of dynamics out of the game, and we hear the noise of not firm centers when she play stronger (plus a goo tone of the sliding impacts on the wire)

Eevn in that worn out shape they could be voiced so the impact is more discrete and the hammer get faster off the strings.
It works here because the knuckles are at 16 mm an the hammer is more accelerate than on today actions, more linearly too.

So the faster impact helps a lot the rebound.
The tone is also less "hidden", more immediate, in that case , with a pronounced presence, and less need for mass or hard/dense hammer (while it is of course hard under the crown)

With unlaquered but "recovered" original hammers, on that type of instrument, it can take 8 years to attain the wanted concentrated energy at impact, but at some point it is there, when the strings imprints are large enough an the felt packed enough.

Always temped to use some lacquer beforethen but all the pianos I have seen in that situation where in flats with neighbors so we did not. I think I should but may be with rosin under the crown, may be it does not kill the resiliency as much.

Anyway at some point the recovered hammer acts really well and provide a good dynamic plague. One need to be really patient..





Edited by Olek (07/11/14 07:07 PM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2301268 - 07/11/14 07:34 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Nothing in that piano sound/tone is to my taste. But it works (i.e., the keys move up-and-down how she wants them to without struggling). <<<------ that is the main thing that matters most to me.

My observations had to do with the responsiveness of the keys due to properly functioning alignment of the parts and lighter than modern-day hammers. For these observations, my 'credentials' were taken into question by BDB. I want to know why.

BDB, what are your observations and why?
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2301290 - 07/11/14 08:28 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: A454.7]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
Nothing in that piano sound/tone is to my taste. But it works (i.e., the keys move up-and-down how she wants them to without struggling). <<<------ that is the main thing that matters most to me.

My observations had to do with the responsiveness of the keys due to properly functioning alignment of the parts and lighter than modern-day hammers. For these observations, my 'credentials' were taken into question by BDB. I want to know why.

BDB, what are your observations and why?


Hi nevermind A443 it is forums, we better fight that tendency than go along with, there is enough to read yet wink
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2301331 - 07/11/14 11:43 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21923
Loc: Oakland
I said what my observations were. "Why" should have been obvious to anyone with a reasonable amount of experience with pianos.
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Semipro Tech

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#2301335 - 07/12/14 12:02 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
OK, BDB, I see: you'd rather continue to lob insults instead of discussing why you are wrong about your analysis of that piano. Should you ever change your mind, do let me know: there are many things that you missed and I would be more than happy to go over them with you.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2301341 - 07/12/14 12:21 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2414
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Marty,
Yes, A443's statements can seem over the top. However he has independently verified the standards I documented in my 1980's book. So he has done his homework.

How long should a piano last with serious use? This is a question modern piano makers never want to delve into. My work has shown that going back to the old style light hammers and high leverage actions makes for a far more durable and stable piano.

I know touring performers don't want to worry about this, but they should, because it affects the economics of the business of public piano performance.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2301345 - 07/12/14 12:35 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I know touring performers don't want to worry about this, but they should, because it affects the economics of the business of public piano performance.

To play the devil's advocate, wouldn't less durable pianos, which need to be replaced more frequently, be better for the broad economics of the entire profession? That way, the builders of the great pianos wouldn't have to compete against themselves in the aftermarket sales arena.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2301350 - 07/12/14 12:53 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2414
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
MARTY,
Venues might give up on real pianos altogether, and go to digitals. Concert series might give up on piano recitals completely. They already are shrinking from past levels, especially proportionate to population growth.

I think more durable, dynamic, colorful, and ergonomically friendly performing pianos would be good for the public piano performance trade. And for the piano trade in general, because the investment would make more sense if more durable.

Then if you consider that there are new materials and methods that are obvious in the possible benefit to piano quality-and that piano manufacturers have almost no R&D-you can see that the industry is stumbling under the weight of history-and they can not find a way to make a truly modern piano that eclipses anything achieved in the past. This is the way to change the market-acheive new designs, utilizing new materials and methods that solve the quality, durability, and manufacturing process issues in pianos.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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