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#2301494 - 07/12/14 11:55 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21697
Loc: Oakland
What I said was that what can be verified from the video is that the piano is an old Steinway A that has been extensively rebuilt. Anyone who views the interior shots of the piano should be able to see this.

What this A433 fellow claims is that he can tell the piano is original, which can be seen by the technique of the nonagenarian playing it.

How many of you see what I see, and how many see what he sees?
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#2301497 - 07/12/14 12:02 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Minnesota Marty]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1440
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
To play the devil's advocate, wouldn't less durable pianos, which need to be replaced more frequently, be better for the broad economics of the entire profession? That way, the builders of the great pianos wouldn't have to compete against themselves in the aftermarket sales arena.
This makes absolutely no sense (i.e., the concept is not well-thought out). If the pianos are less durable, and replaced more often, there will be more of that piano competing in the aftermarket via rebuilders. However, more importantly, one of the main hallmarks of a great piano builder IS durability: pianos that are unstable in tuning, voicing, and regulation by definition are not made by great piano builders.
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#2301500 - 07/12/14 12:06 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: BDB]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1440
Originally Posted By: BDB
What this A433 fellow claims is that he can tell the piano is original, which can be seen by the technique of the nonagenarian playing it.
You have entirely missed the point. Of course it has been fiddled around with over the years. But, the setup has not been altered, like technicians in the US do all the time to conform to 'modern' standards using 'genuine' parts.


Edited by A443 (07/12/14 12:08 PM)
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#2301518 - 07/12/14 12:54 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: A454.7]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
To play the devil's advocate, wouldn't less durable pianos, which need to be replaced more frequently, be better for the broad economics of the entire profession? That way, the builders of the great pianos wouldn't have to compete against themselves in the aftermarket sales arena.
This makes absolutely no sense (i.e., the concept is not well-thought out). If the pianos are less durable, and replaced more often, there will be more of that piano competing in the aftermarket via rebuilders. However, more importantly, one of the main hallmarks of a great piano builder IS durability: pianos that are unstable in tuning, voicing, and regulation by definition are not made by great piano builders.

Apparently you have no clue what "devil's advocate" means!
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2301524 - 07/12/14 01:07 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1440
I know what it means: you just don't know how to play devil's advocate very well. It is not intended to be a snarky and sarcastic opposition, it is intended to inspire further debate and test weaknesses in structure.

Can you tell the difference? Or, do you need more help?
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Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2301790 - 07/13/14 08:15 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Ed Foote]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1779
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: bkw58

I have experience with the so-called "new parts," carbon fibre, et al, first in harpsichord service and then in pianos. Specifically, I have no experience with Ed's S&S new rebuilds with his choice and use of new non-S&S parts. Nothing more. Nothing less. For this reason I have asked him if one of his S&S rebuilds might be in an area of TN. I plan to be in that area in the near future. My desire is to ascertain whether or not the touch in question is present in his S&S rebuilds.


Greetings,
There are several in the practice rooms, several more out in the general public, and I think we may be moving one into an on campus facility in the very near future. Practice rooms will get their two year or three regulation before September, but that mainly consists of turning the capstans up a little. Sometimes the let-off needs to be gone through, too,but otherwise,the composite parts seem to just sit there, unfazed by the use.
Regards,


Thanks, Ed.
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#2301803 - 07/13/14 09:02 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1779
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
BKW58,
The old Steinways had very light hammers and higher than average leverage, compared to most other pianos. If when I rebuild one I use new parts that include heavier hammers and reduced leverage-I have just made a "Steinwas".

The great tradition of instrument making is to use the best materials and methods that produce the most dynamic, colorful, stable and long lasting tone qualities. That is the tradition I employ.

Now which way is the "Steinway " or "Steinwas"?


Thanks, Ed. The point is that the S&S touch in question is more likely to be achieved with Steinway technology. (I did not say it was impossible):

"It is my experience that such - again, feeling the hammer through the key - is more likely achievable with a 100% S&S, as opposed to a S&S hybrid."

No doubt a good rebuilt S&S with non-S&S parts is desired by some. I have serviced both rebuilt S&S and S&S hybrids for many years - more of the latter since many (including dealers) do not want to pay the higher cost of the former.

By definition, the action is the "mechanism that allows the pianists fingers to connect to the strings." A properly regulated S&S brings that "connection" ever so closer. This was my point.

Have a great day.



Edited by bkw58 (07/13/14 09:09 AM)
Edit Reason: insert parenthesis, typo
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Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2301828 - 07/13/14 11:37 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1512
Loc: Old Hangtown California
When you get into modifying the SS action you find that the NY whippen cannot be modified.
If key capstans need to be relocated the whippen heal cannot be relocated to match up with it so the Hamburg Renner whip is a good way to go and this will retain the "all Steinway" image that so many are mystified by.
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#2301836 - 07/13/14 12:11 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
I find the precise adjusting of the stack really matters. As the good size for the jack.

I will keep original geometry on all older models, more sparkle, faster hammer, it compensates well the old panel, also with light enough hammers)

On larger models the modern parts can be mounted, but that imply some imbalance with the keyboard and tweaks are necessary.
The small key dip will be lost anyway.
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#2302862 - 07/16/14 02:55 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Gene Nelson]
Zjones4 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/28/14
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: Gene Nelson
Olek-
If you want more power - stronger tone - why not weight the hammer?
1/2 gram of brass or lead rod in the moulding does wonders.
It will make your touch heavier by 5 or six times the 1/2 gram and it is easier to do.
Also, the heavier down weight will be combined with a increased upweight of about the same amount minus a little friction making the action faster.
This works only if your action is not too heavy already.


My question is this... Would the extra weight placed on a hammer create more stress, thus reducing the life of the bushings, hammer felt, and possibly the same to the jacks? Perhaps this weight is so small, it is insignificant to the natural wear an action already experiences?

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#2302977 - 07/16/14 10:48 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2210
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I have found the best way to make a grand action heavier is to reduce the number of front key leads. As the sum total inertia of the action drops-static touch weight needs to rise above the 50-55gram "standard" most factories employ.
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#2303020 - 07/16/14 12:39 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I have found the best way to make a grand action heavier is to reduce the number of front key leads. As the sum total inertia of the action drops-static touch weight needs to rise above the 50-55gram "standard" most factories employ.


Of course it is a neat way, but having the keys "glued" to the fingers is not as much appreciated so UW must be kept reasonable In my opinion.

If only it could work the other way around !!
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2303028 - 07/16/14 01:06 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Olek]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1440
Originally Posted By: Olek
Of course it is a neat way, but having the keys "glued" to the fingers is not as much appreciated so UW must be kept reasonable In my opinion.
What is reasonable in your opinion?

I did some testing to try and find out what the limits were, as I took the hammers lighter. While your statement is absolutely correct for modernly weighted hammers, lighter hammers allows for a much higher UW that, in my experience, pianists not only appreciate, but actually use to their enjoyment and benefit. They leaned into the keys more and find a nicer balance (i.e., they had a better centre of gravity in the seated position; they didn't need to 'lift' their hand's as much, the piano propel it forward). Moreover, the repetition speeds greatly improve.

There are limits, however: extremely quick at-the-top-of-the key playing is not benefit from higher UWs. I'm not exactly sure what the limits are for every hammer weight and action geometry setup yet, but, in general, if the intent is to have optimal in-the-key repetition function, my experiments so far indicate that at least +60g DW is necessary to get the system to repeat ideally. If the action feels too heavy at +60g DW, then the hammer weight and/or the action geometry ratios should be altered.
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#2303050 - 07/16/14 01:54 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
There may be some parameters as you say that go together with the action ratio and the hammer mass.

Very possible that a 40 g UW with light hammers can be good.
But DW must be higher at the same time.

Also the more leave the keys the more it breaks the natural return motion of the hammer, so we are in different plagues, as always with the hammer/action ratio couple first, the key mass last..

I did once a concert grand without any lead, Schwander action with strong assist springs responsible for all the balancing.
About 40g UW.

I was surprised that the pianist did appreciate and told me he was feeling better the hammer, despite a less good return of the parts, where the hammer an the whippens are each on their own at some regimes.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2303561 - 07/18/14 12:40 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2210
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I have done many actions with low inertia and the static DW in the low bass is 70grams. Pianists do not perceive it as heavy-in fact they often feel them as light.

I also asked technicians to guess at the DW by moving the keys slowly-they invariably underestimate the DW by 10 to 15 grams.
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#2303567 - 07/18/14 12:55 AM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Ed, a simple conclusion would be that the ratio DW UW must be within certain limits to be felt as good.
We are back at the hammer wink



Edited by Olek (07/18/14 12:55 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2304517 - 07/20/14 07:01 PM Re: Why and why not adding lead weight to key [Re: Weiyan]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2376
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Interesting subject...this dw issue came up last week with my player piano tech.

I have had great success with the "Touchrail" add-on to my M&H BB....I don't play the piano, the machines do...:)....therefore, it's necessary to present the most even dw possible...for a piano mechanism like the Ampico or Duo-Art, this touchrail has evened out the dweight to a finer degree than before. We are using 52 grm as the dweight...this is the ideal dw for the Ampico. We were able to get all the keys to that spec, however, the lowest 15+ bass notes are not quite right....rather than install stronger Touchrail springs, my tech suggests we add a small amount of lead weight to each key, and possibly reduce the hammer weight, either one. He did say if we add too much weight, it will affect the repetition, and might cause those notes to be a bit sluggish....don't want that!

The LX system however, can compensate for those low notes now....using "even play", the manual adjustment of each note through the LX software/remote control. However, I would like to get those low notes fixed properly so the Ampico can be at it's best.





Edited by Grandpianoman (07/20/14 07:36 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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