Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2295342 - 06/26/14 02:10 PM Bach invention no. 13 fingering
JanVan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/13
Posts: 51
Hello,

I have looked at editions by Willard Palmer (Alfred), Griepenkerl (Peters), and also Busoni but the fingering suggestions are very sparse and I am really left in the dark as to what fingering to use for the many broken chord figurations.

I am considering buying the Henle edition with fingering but would like to know how abundant (and how good) their fingering suggestions are compared to the editions I mentioned above.

Which editions of the Bach inventions do you prefer and do you also find the invention in A minor much more difficult than the other ones?


Edited by JanVan (06/26/14 02:43 PM)

Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#2295359 - 06/26/14 02:53 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]
MysteryMusic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/14
Posts: 20
Loc: North Carolina
I am working on this invention now as well, and I have the Wiener Urtext edition. The fingerings in that edition for this invention are bizarre in places and make no sense to my hands. I finally had to sit down and try a bunch of fingering progressions as well as discuss it with my teacher to settle on something that works for my hands.

After getting the fingering down, I am not finding it more difficult than the other two-voice inventions that I have learned...
_________________________
Walter W190

Top
#2295375 - 06/26/14 03:30 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]
ShiroKuro Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3474
Loc: not in Japan anymore
JanVan, it's been a long time since I worked on Inventions, but at the time, I used the Henle edition on the recommendation of my teacher. I also have the Busoni one, but as I recall, I never used it and relied completely on the Henle. However, any fingering issues I discussed with my teacher at the time, so I don't really remember whether I found Henle lacking in terms of fingering guidance.

I take it you're not working with a teacher? If you are, of course ask him/her. But if you're working on your own (and can't or don't want to get a teacher) I would recommend the following:

1) get the Henle edition, it's well regarded.
2) compare fingering in Henle, Palmer and Busoni (by compare I mean of course try them out at the keyboard)
3) if you can't settle on a fingering you're comfortable with, take photos of specific measures, post them here and ask others which fingering they use or would recommend.

Also, you might do a web search for "piano fingering" or similar terms and see if you can find some advice and general guidelines, that might help you as well. Fingering is a huge issue, I really benefited from working with my teacher and getting both advice on fingering for specific pieces and general ideas. I'm much better at choosing fingering on my own these days, but I still bring fingering-related questions to my teacher, so it really is one of the big factors of piano playing.

Good luck!!
_________________________
Started piano June 1999. My recordings at Box.Net:
https://app.box.com/s/j4rgyhn72uvluemg1m6u




Top
#2295568 - 06/26/14 11:06 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]
zillybug Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/11
Posts: 126
Loc: USA
Hi
I did this invention last year. I have the Henle Urtext edition. The urtext edition has very little fingering written in. I worked with my teacher to figure out the fingering that worked best for me and then wrote almost every finger in the score in the beginning. With Bach you really have to be consistent with your fingering. I did find that invention harder than the ones I did previously (one and eight) and number 14 that I am working on now. god luck with it. I do like the sound of it.
Judy

Top
#2295577 - 06/26/14 11:30 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11704
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Baroque keyboard music in general is awkward to play. That is due to the highly contrapuntal nature of the style. This results in fingering that may not make a lot of sense for that particular note or set of notes, but it sets you up for what is to come. There are times when there's very few other options, and even a few when there's only one way to do it.

Which passages are troubling you? If you can post pictures of those measures and the fingering that you are using that isn't working, we can offer alternatives. In the end, it's totally up to you as to what works best.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#2295923 - 06/27/14 07:47 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]
stumbler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 280
Loc: Toronto
I have two editions of the two part inventions.

1. old beat up Edito Musica Budapest
- I haven't used it in a long time, but I remember disliking the fingering choices.

2. Wilhelm Hanson edition (Edwin Fischer)
- I used this recently (a year ago) for Inv 13
- In some cases I initially used fingering different from that suggested, but changed back to the suggested ones in several cases as on reflection the suggested fingerings seemed to relect deeper understanding of phrasing.
- One drawback of this edition is that copious interpretive footnotes yield awkward page breaks in some cases (though Inv 13 is fine).

As to difficulty, it is certainly more difficult than Inv 1, learning Inv 13 required more thought about hand position. Some of the other inventions seem more difficult that 13 and I so far have avoided trying to master them.
_________________________
Roland RD-700NX


Top
#2296058 - 06/28/14 05:06 AM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]
JanVan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/13
Posts: 51
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

My first question is about the opening motif in bar 1 (RH and LH) and bar 6 (LH):



The fingering with no background is what most editions agree on while the fingerings with a colored background are where there is divergence.

I have tried out the different suggestions at the piano and found that each one has their own merits what makes it all the more difficult to commit to one or another.

What I am looking for is a fingering solution that allows fast play while at the same time minimizing the build-up of tension.

I would love to know which fingering you prefer (and why) for these different passages.

To avoid any confusion, please answer the following questions by indicating the background color of your preferred fingering or by indicating your own fingering solution (e.g. 1-2-3-4-5).

1. Bar 1, RH (blue, green or other)?
2. Bar 1, LH (blue, green or other)?
3. Bar 6, LH (blue, green, yellow or other)?

I hope this thread may be of interest to all those working on this very beautiful and popular invention.

Top
#2296062 - 06/28/14 05:42 AM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]
outo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 583
Loc: Finland
I still remember this piece as one of the most unpleasant I have ever worked with. Bach in general does not suit my hands at all. One reason is the frequent 1-2 streches in the right hand. My right thumb does not extend normally, so it gets sore from practicing pieces like this. I also have little strech between my 4-5. I only have a very long hypermobile 3rd finger...

But this is what we came up with, yet I am not sure it was the best option...I haven't returned to the piece for about a year now.

Measure 1: RH 1354135 45 25
LH 51 3 2531 2521

Measure 6 LH 35 3121 5212 1521

So as you see there are differences extending the options you gave. One needs to look at the whole phrase usually in such music to make it work.


Edited by outo (06/28/14 05:46 AM)

Top
#2296152 - 06/28/14 12:44 PM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]
jdw Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 957
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
I loved learning this piece. It's not easy, though!

Different things work for different hands, but for me:
Bar 1 RH, blue
Bar 1 LH, blue
Bar 6 LH, yellow
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

Top
#2296387 - 06/29/14 12:48 AM Re: Bach invention no. 13 fingering [Re: JanVan]
hreichgott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 958
Loc: western MA, USA
Here's what I think the different fingerings are getting at.

Bar 1 RH:
GREEN: allows hand to close more at the top of the phrase, enabling more freedom of the arm which makes it easier to shape the melody. Disadvantage: have to be careful to avoid unwanted thumb accent on the G#.
BLUE: maintains hand in the E-E octave position and uses the 4 on the C which is really familiar and easy if you play a lot of 4-note blocked chord exercises. Allows 2 on G#. Disadvantage: less freedom of arm, and 4-5 on C-E might be too stretchy for small hands or for people who don't play a lot of those exercises.

Bar 1 LH:
Just a choice of which inconvenience you want to avoid more: switching from 2 on A to 3 on A with only a 16th note in between, or switching from 2 on A to 2 on B with only a 16th note in between.
For what it's worth, I prefer this because it makes it easier for me to show where the theme begins in the left hand: from the beginning of the measure, 5-1-2-1-5-3-1-2-5-2-1.

Bar 6 LH:
BLUE: Makes crossing over the thumb easy. Might make it difficult to show that the phrase begins on the G.
GREEN: Makes phrasing easier (at least it does for me), replaces crossing-over with a long reach (10th). So if you do have a tendency to become tense to begin with, then maybe don't use this one.
YELLOW: This avoids large reaches altogether, and is the same as the blue fingering in measure 1 on the same melodic idea, but creates a lot of extra work for fingers 1 and 2 because finger 3 isn't used at all.


Edited by hreichgott (06/29/14 12:50 AM)
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

Top

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
144 registered (accordeur, *windowlicker*, 36251, AaronM, 46 invisible), 1707 Guests and 24 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75921 Members
42 Forums
156892 Topics
2305272 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Tablet setup for ultra portable rig
by Sand Tiger
08/23/14 03:59 PM
the magic of Raymond Lewenthal
by Michael Sayers
08/23/14 03:33 PM
Stabilise tuning on old grand
by michaelopolis
08/23/14 02:18 PM
Pierre-Laurent Aimard Ticket for sale
by Fugue14
08/23/14 01:18 PM
A New Piano Brand is Coming
by Steve Cohen
08/23/14 12:21 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission