Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2295231 - 06/26/14 09:11 AM Help with console decision
tnsettlemo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/13
Posts: 31
Hi, my name is Tim Settlemoire and I have made posts here before and you guys have really helped me out. I currently have a Yamaha P155 and before that a P105. I am a Late Intermediate student and have the books and curriculum to take me all the way to playing the classics: Debussy, Granados, Scriabin, Albeniz are my favorites. Can't leave out Chick Corea and the like. I am very happy with the P155 and plan on keeping it as a back-up. But I do need a console with the proper pedals and sliding key cover - doesn't have to be sliding. Also, I can't have a real piano in the old non-humidified farm house I live in. I take lessons at a Yamaha dealership and have been checking out the new CLP-525 but it seems it just has the sound engine of the Arius 162 with 3-sensor keys and 256 polyphony. heck, the p255 has a better sound and resonances than the clp525. I do like the Arius 162 but if the clp525, which is at my spending limit, has the same sound, I might like to buy the Arius. I was wondering about the new Roland rp401r. AZPianoNews says the previous generation 301 which has the g action feels a bit sluggish. Has anyone tried out the new action: PHA4 Standard I think is what it is called. How about the Supernatural Sound. Is it an improvement over the Pure CF Sampling of the Yamaha Arius 162? Is the new action better than the Yamaha GH action? Any thoughts? What else is out there at the under 2000 price with the quality of Yamaha or Roland?

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
Special Financing on Digital Keyboards

Click Here


#2295273 - 06/26/14 10:55 AM Re: Help with console decision [Re: tnsettlemo]
Lester Burnham Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 282
Originally Posted By: tnsettlemo
What else is out there at the under 2000 price with the quality of Yamaha or Roland?

Kawai, and at the low / mid end, Casio - easily competes with Yamaha.

Top
#2295276 - 06/26/14 11:03 AM Re: Help with console decision [Re: tnsettlemo]
theoak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 65
Loc: Idaho, USA
You could have already stumbled across this review. As with all reviews you have to take them with a grain of salt. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I think the same can be said about pianos.

http://azpianonews.blogspot.com/2014/06/...eviewguide.html

What the review does do well I feel is offer alternatives for the same price range. You might find it interesting.

Top
#2295315 - 06/26/14 01:16 PM Re: Help with console decision [Re: theoak]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3708
Loc: Northern England.
From that review -

" What I notice about this GH3 action is that the keys take a lot more pressure to push down whether your fingers are on the front part of the white keys or on the back of the white or black keys. As an example, if you were to go and press the keys on the new Yamaha NU1 digital upright piano with a real wood key action movement in it, you would notice right away how much easier it is to press the keys. This is the way a good digital upright style key action should be but the Yamaha CLP525 as well as the lower priced Arius YDP162 have key actions that are much stiffer to the touch, even as compared to other brands I have played in this price range, . ."

Firstly, I find that one GH3 action isn`t always the same as another. The more expensive the instrument, the better it gets; maybe others can concur on this.
Secondly, I wouldn`t wish the NU1 keyboard on my worst enemy . . . it was truly weird to play. This is of course, my opinion only. But I do have this shop close by where I can try out pretty much anything apart from Casios.


Edited by peterws (06/26/14 01:17 PM)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

Top
#2295348 - 06/26/14 02:24 PM Re: Help with console decision [Re: tnsettlemo]
theoak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 65
Loc: Idaho, USA
I have a Yamaha CLP-340 which is based on the GH3 action. For 4 years now my kids have been very successful with this piano.

The higher end CLP line uses the "Natural Wooden" keys with the action of the GH3, but with real wooden keys (for the white keys only). This could be why you feel it gets "better".

I would be interested to what you thought of Yamaha's latest action in the CLP-585 - the "Natural Wooden X" with escapement and counter balances.

The point of the link was to show other options at the $2K range.

Top
#2295351 - 06/26/14 02:27 PM Re: Help with console decision [Re: peterws]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: peterws


Secondly, I wouldn`t wish the NU1 keyboard on my worst enemy . . . it was truly weird to play. This is of course, my opinion only. But I do have this shop close by where I can try out pretty much anything apart from Casios.

This merely confirms how far GHS is from an acoustic action.

Top
#2295395 - 06/26/14 04:25 PM Re: Help with console decision [Re: theoak]
lolatu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 486
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: theoak
The higher end CLP line uses the "Natural Wooden" keys with the action of the GH3, but with real wooden keys (for the white keys only). This could be why you feel it gets "better".

ROFL

Edit for slightly more constructive comment: The wood in the NWX is simply a veneer along the sides of a plastic key. Which is a good compromise, IMO. It retains all the advantages of plastic construction, while retaining the wood aesthetic for which people seem to want to pay a premium. But a veneer isn't going to make a differnce to the feel.


Edited by lolatu (06/26/14 05:25 PM)
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

Top
#2295464 - 06/26/14 07:22 PM Re: Help with console decision [Re: tnsettlemo]
slowtraveler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/12
Posts: 230
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Originally Posted By: tnsettlemo
...I am very happy with the P155 and plan on keeping it as a back-up. But I do need a console with the proper pedals and sliding key cover - doesn't have to be sliding.

Welcome back, Tim!

If I may ask, what has changed for you in the two months since you last contemplated replacing your P155? It kind of sounds to me as if you might be having a GAS attack. Not to worry, it's an almost universal affliction among musicians, and it's definitely endemic on this forum smile

Please forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but I believe that frequently buying and selling digital pianos can be a pretty expensive habit. Do you feel your skills have advanced to the point that the P155 is no longer a suitable practice instrument? And if so, why would you keep the P155 instead of replacing it? Buying a new DP for the primary purpose of getting pedals and a key cover kind of seems like overkill. (Not that it isn't lots of fun to kick the tires on shiny new instruments, of course!)

Kind regards,

Ben

Top
#2295482 - 06/26/14 07:44 PM Re: Help with console decision [Re: slowtraveler]
tnsettlemo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/13
Posts: 31
Originally Posted By: slowtraveler
Originally Posted By: tnsettlemo
...I am very happy with the P155 and plan on keeping it as a back-up. But I do need a console with the proper pedals and sliding key cover - doesn't have to be sliding.

Welcome back, Tim!

If I may ask, what has changed for you in the two months since you last contemplated replacing your P155? It kind of sounds to me as if you might be having a GAS attack. Not to worry, it's an almost universal affliction among musicians, and it's definitely endemic on this forum smile

Please forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but I believe that frequently buying and selling digital pianos can be a pretty expensive habit. Do you feel your skills have advanced to the point that the P155 is no longer a suitable practice instrument? And if so, why would you keep the P155 instead of replacing it? Buying a new DP for the primary purpose of getting pedals and a key cover kind of seems like overkill. (Not that it isn't lots of fun to kick the tires on shiny new instruments, of course!)

Kind regards,

Ben



I need a fixed pedal board and the p155 does not have it. I am getting tired of constantly positioning the pedal-it keeps sliding away when I use it. Half-pedaling is coming up in my next book for late intermediate playing-it has Granados and Debussy and the like at the end and I would have to buy the FC3 pedal from Yamaha. The pedal board for the p255 supports half-pedaling and doesn't slide around and the p255 sounds better and has the synthetic ivory keys which do work great! But I really want a console with real metal pedals and a key cover. I constantly cover my p155 with a sheet and it gets old. Anyways...Always looking for something better!!!


Edited by tnsettlemo (06/26/14 07:45 PM)

Top
#2295492 - 06/26/14 08:02 PM Re: Help with console decision [Re: theoak]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9368
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: theoak
You could have already stumbled across this review. As with all reviews you have to take them with a grain of salt. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I think the same can be said about pianos.

http://azpianonews.blogspot.com/2014/06/...eviewguide.html

What the review does do well I feel is offer alternatives for the same price range. You might find it interesting.


Interesting review, but it's not clear why this is a "Best Buy" - how is the CLP-525 a 'better buy' than the other models he refers to?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2295560 - 06/26/14 10:40 PM Re: Help with console decision [Re: Kawai James]
pwl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/13
Posts: 202
Loc: Bay Area CA
I'd like to say a word in favor of the Kawai CN34 and CN24. Excellent action, quite decent sound. They share the same action and sound generator, altho the CN34 has larger speakers. The CN34 also has more features and a more convenient user interface.

I'm aware of two relatively recent purchases of the CN34 for under $2K. (I participated in one* in March in the SF Bay Area and there's a more recent one in W. Virginia.) It would likely take some bargaining to get these prices, but it's doable, depending upon your location. The CN24 is available for well under $2K.

*My friend played the Yamaha and Kawai models in the $2000-3000 range within 15 minutes of each other; she chose the Kawai.


Edited by pwl (06/26/14 10:45 PM)

Top
#2295663 - 06/27/14 05:58 AM Re: Help with console decision [Re: slowtraveler]
Lester Burnham Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 282
Originally Posted By: slowtraveler
It kind of sounds to me as if you might be having a GAS attack. Not to worry, it's an almost universal affliction among musicians, and it's definitely endemic on this forum smile

GAS is something I see in other hobbies and interests I have / follow (in some cases, I suppose, it's a definite factor) - whilst it may afflict musicians and this forum, it's certainly not limited to musicians or musical instruments - it's indicative and endemic in a general, contemporary mindset about hobbies and pursuits.

But... so long as it encourages / stimulates more actual piano playing, it's all good. When it takes over / becomes a proxy for actually playing - then it's jumped the shark.

I started off with the concept of looking to buy a cabinet style digital piano for my main lounge, as an adjunct, complementary to my acoustic piano. Well actually, my first interest was simply getting an entry level digital piano on an x-frame stand to use with headphones for silent practice.

But the lure of something a little better, plus a limited run / special edition with a hefty discount, was sufficient to make my spend a little more than I'd initially planned. Afterwards, that all made complete sense, with hindsight was a good decision, and I'm still pleased I did.

A little later, I'd got this wild hair about getting something keyboard-ish (well slab digital piano-ish, ideally, but I wasn't finding anything a good enough bargain on the used market) for my bedroom, because there was a position in the room, overlooking an outside view, I'd always had in my mind's eye, that I'd like to play at times. So I bought a 61-key keyboard and an x-frame stand and sited it there. Ended up not playing it - because although the position was as I'd always really wanted, playing a smaller keyboard did nothing for me, nor was motivating me to play it, or made me feel like I was getting much out of it - I just ended up playing my digital piano.

Then along comes a bargain in several vendors in the UK selling the PX-150 with the stock stand and pedal board, for the same price as the PX-150 on it's own (previously). That was sufficient motivation to replace that keyboard - it is (clearly) a bit wider (88 keys vs 61), but has slightly less depth, allows me to play in a place I'd always envisioned as being pleasurable, and is representative and shares commonality with my main digital piano. I still play my main digital piano mostly.

And again, I'm glad I made the decision I did - that's not pure rationalisation - that's with hindsight and on merit, it still makes sense and has value to me - I've got something to play in the place I always wanted to, that's representative - plus, the PX-150, even on the official stand, is very easily detached and portable - there's a certain something that's quite free-ing to be able to take a digital piano, that's relatively portable and easily moved, to another location, should the need arise.

What I've decided on next, is that I don't need any more at present, and I should endeavour to get my money's worth out of what I have. At some point in the future, I may feel the need - based on merit - that I need a better digital piano - I'm not pre-supposing that, just not ruling it out. But only when I get to the point where I'm either feeling / encountering limitations (unlikely, I feel, for the near future anyways), or things have moved on so much that I am truly missing out. What I'm not going to do, is keep looking at newer models with an itchy trigger finger, like I was in my youth, staring at gadgets in the windows of Dixons.

As a phenomenon I am wary of it - because it's easy, at least for some interests, for the acquisition of kit to take over from actually doing / using it. At least where music is concerned, I personally don't want to get like that - I don't want to be thinking about kit, or talking about the hobby, more than actually playing - or as a proxy for playing, or a distraction... I recognise that with other things, I've at times been guilty of it, and can sometimes feel it's siren song when it comes to the piano - but I do try to recognise and fight that, and focus on doing rather than obsessing about kit.

Yes, in previous times, people made do with things because times were harder, there was less available and it cost relatively more, there was less to spend / disposable, or things like credit weren't anything like as easy to obtain - and people still prevailed and achieved with the things they used, even if at times they were sub-optimal. I think of the pianos available when I was first playing in my childhood, to both family members (historically) and piano teachers I had over that period, and in schools. People, in general, obsessed less, made less excuses for what they had / had to work with, and largely made do, and did - because quite simply, there wasn't much else in the way of options. Personally, I've never encountered somebody who ran out of equipment for their talent, or gave up purely because the instruments they had available weren't good enough for them to be able to progress - that's not to say I've never encountered people who couldn't afford kit to facilitate their interest, but that's a slightly separate thing - I don't own a Ferrari, either - in general, less options meant people made less excuses, and very much less tolerance for people making excuses - the excesses of wanton consumerism have a lot to answer for in terms of encouraging certain feelings of expectation and entitlement.

To my mind, if somebody feels like they would benefit - or would simply like something newer, better, or just want a change - so long as on balance it encourages more actual doing, and it's affordable for them, then I feel it's all good. It's only bad, if it's not truly affordable, or it's to the detriment of actually doing.

Top
#2295694 - 06/27/14 09:04 AM Re: Help with console decision [Re: lolatu]
Enthusiast Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 245
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: lolatu
Originally Posted By: theoak
The higher end CLP line uses the "Natural Wooden" keys with the action of the GH3, but with real wooden keys (for the white keys only). This could be why you feel it gets "better".

ROFL

Edit for slightly more constructive comment: The wood in the NWX is simply a veneer along the sides of a plastic key. Which is a good compromise, IMO. It retains all the advantages of plastic construction, while retaining the wood aesthetic for which people seem to want to pay a premium. But a veneer isn't going to make a differnce to the feel.


Are you going off those pictures that were posted here of the NW action a while back? The person that took the pictures said they were misleading and the keys were actually solid wood.

Top
#2295695 - 06/27/14 09:07 AM Re: Help with console decision [Re: Lester Burnham]
tnsettlemo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/13
Posts: 31
I bought a Casio CDP220 on Ebay to resell and make money. It took a while to resell but I did make some money and while I had it, it was fun to play. I liked the action on it and it got me thinking about better pianos with better actions than my P155. I would like something a little closer to the real thing and in a cabinet model. I practice all the time and I would like to have two models: the cabinet one down stairs and one in my room on an X stand to do my Hanon exercises at night.

Top
#2295723 - 06/27/14 10:17 AM Re: Help with console decision [Re: Lester Burnham]
slowtraveler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/12
Posts: 230
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Originally Posted By: Lester Burnham
Originally Posted By: slowtraveler
It kind of sounds to me as if you might be having a GAS attack. Not to worry, it's an almost universal affliction among musicians, and it's definitely endemic on this forum smile

GAS is something I see in other hobbies and interests I have / follow (in some cases, I suppose, it's a definite factor) - whilst it may afflict musicians and this forum, it's certainly not limited to musicians or musical instruments - it's indicative and endemic in a general, contemporary mindset about hobbies and pursuits...

To my mind, if somebody feels like they would benefit - or would simply like something newer, better, or just want a change - so long as on balance it encourages more actual doing, and it's affordable for them, then I feel it's all good.

Sounds like you have a healthy view of the relationship between the tools and the actual work itself!

I don't have any normative views about GAS. It's definitely part of the fun of any hobby or avocation. Heck, just collecting and messing around with digital pianos could be enjoyable, even if one isn't a serious piano student. It's nobody else's business, really.

The downside of GAS, I suppose, exists in the temptation to believe that better gear will make you a better player. That could sometimes be true, but I think it's a dangerous assumption to leave unexamined.

For that reason I think, when a forum member asks for buying advice, it's worth trying to find out exactly what they hope to accomplish with the purchase, especially if they appear to be a serious student of the instrument. The OP here seems pretty clear on the reasons he's shopping (mainly, it appears, to get the benefits of a console rather than a slab form factor), in which case, more power to him!

Top
#2295727 - 06/27/14 10:34 AM Re: Help with console decision [Re: slowtraveler]
Lester Burnham Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 282
Originally Posted By: slowtraveler
Originally Posted By: Lester Burnham
Originally Posted By: slowtraveler
It kind of sounds to me as if you might be having a GAS attack. Not to worry, it's an almost universal affliction among musicians, and it's definitely endemic on this forum smile

GAS is something I see in other hobbies and interests I have / follow (in some cases, I suppose, it's a definite factor) - whilst it may afflict musicians and this forum, it's certainly not limited to musicians or musical instruments - it's indicative and endemic in a general, contemporary mindset about hobbies and pursuits...

To my mind, if somebody feels like they would benefit - or would simply like something newer, better, or just want a change - so long as on balance it encourages more actual doing, and it's affordable for them, then I feel it's all good.

Sounds like you have a healthy view of the relationship between the tools and the actual work itself!

I don't have any normative views about GAS. It's definitely part of the fun of any hobby or avocation. Heck, just collecting and messing around with digital pianos could be enjoyable, even if one isn't a serious piano student. It's nobody else's business, really.

The downside of GAS, I suppose, exists in the possible temptation to believe that better gear will make you a better player. That could sometimes be true, but I think it's a dangerous assumption to leave unexamined.

For that reason I think that, when a forum member asks for buying advice, it's worth trying to find out exactly what they hope to accomplish with the purchase, especially if they appear to be a serious student of the instrument. The OP here seems pretty clear on the reasons he's shopping (mainly, it seems, to get the benefits of a console rather than a slab form factor), in which case, more power to him!

I think people obsessing about kit for some things isn't necessarily a bad or negative thing, per se.

I get the thing about people believing it might make them better at something - but I don't really buy it - I think that's just part of the rationalisation to support buying it, and consumerism, or some other -ism. I think the reality of most situations are mostly peoples' potential isn't notably restricted by their equipment.

I think it becomes a negative aspect when people spend more time on some interests, obsessing about the kit / gear, than actually doing. For some things that doesn't really matter - but for things like musical instruments, unless you're just a collector, or flipping as a source of income it can become a distraction that people would be better served by just doing.

Most of the people I see that are REALLY good at something, don't obsess about the kit. They get something decent enough for what they're doing, and actually focus on doing it. The kit, mostly, seems to be largely secondary to them, once it's ticked the necessary boxes. I think for people that - like myself - aspire to be as good as these people, that's a lesson many could benefit from learning.

Top
#2295752 - 06/27/14 11:42 AM Re: Help with console decision [Re: Lester Burnham]
slowtraveler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/12
Posts: 230
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Originally Posted By: Lester Burnham
...I think the reality of most situations are mostly peoples' potential isn't notably restricted by their equipment.

Agree 100%.

Originally Posted By: Lester Burnham
Most of the people I see that are REALLY good at something, don't obsess about the kit.

But I also know some accomplished artists and musicians who are *incredibly* obsessive about their kit. I think it just varies according to one's personality type. (I'm pretty obsessive myself, not that I'm such a good player.) But I also think that people who are really good at something invariably understand the difference between the tools and the craft itself.

@Tim, sorry for hijacking your thread about buying advice, btw. I'll shut up now.

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha U3 - How old is too old?
by Yekul
10/25/14 09:53 PM
Digital Vs. Acoustic is apples and oranges so far
by harpon
10/25/14 08:40 PM
the sound of unrestored Erards
by Michael Sayers
10/25/14 08:34 PM
how best to match natural mahogany on plain wood case parts
by msks
10/25/14 08:26 PM
Heading to the junk pile...
by Emmery
10/25/14 07:39 PM
Who's Online
115 registered (Anne'sson, anamnesis, Almaviva, alans, 36 invisible), 1274 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76656 Members
42 Forums
158498 Topics
2327651 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission