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#2298237 07/03/14 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Franz Liszt
The virtuoso is not a mason who, chisel in hand, faithfully and conscientiously whittles stone after the design of an architect. He is not a passive tool reproducing feeling and thought and adding nothing of himself. He is not the (more or less) experienced reader of works which have no margins for his notes, which allow for no paragraphing between the lines.

Spiritedly-written musical works are in reality, for the virtuoso, only the tragic and moving mise-en-scene for feelings. He is called upon to make emotion speak, and weep, and sing, and sigh--to bring it to life in his consciousness. He creates as the composer himself created, for he himself must live the passions he will call to ligiht in all their brilliance. He breathes life into the lethargic body, infuses it with fire, enlivens it with the pulse of grace and charm. He changes the earthly form into a living being, penetrating it with the spark which Prometheus snatched from Jupiter's flesh. He must send the form he has created soaring into transparent ether: he must arm it with a thousand winged weapons: he must call up scent and blossom, and breath of life


Poetry is rhythm
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Didn't know he was a member here. I think I'll message him sometime.


Regards,

Polyphonist
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Didn't know he was a member here. I think I'll message him sometime.

He posted it a long time ago


Poetry is rhythm
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Just in general, I am always amazed by the eloquence of your average educated individual in earlier times compared with today. This is my favorite piano book, which is the A-list of early 20th century pianists opining on pianism:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28026/28026-h/28026-h.htm

I wonder how many young pianists today can speak or even think like this.


Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach
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"The scale of C should be learned step by step until the practice habits are so formed that they will reign supreme while playing all the other scales. This is the way to secure results—go deep into things. Pearls lie at the bottom of the sea. Most pupils seem to expect them floating upon the surface of the water. They never float, and the one who would have his scales shine with the beauty of splendid gems must first dive deep for the gems.

"But what is the use of saying all this? To tell it to young pupils seems to be a waste of words. They will go on making their mistakes and ignoring the advice of their teachers and mentors until the great teacher of all—experience—forces them to dive for the hidden riches.

-Vladimir de Pachmann

Just delightful. I love how they all agree on Bach's musical 'omnipotence' and being the 'master-weaver of all'.


Danzas Argentinas, Alberto Ginastera
Piano Sonata Hob. XVI: 34 in E Minor, Franz Joseph Haydn
Nocturne, Op. 15 No. 1 in F Major, Frédéric Chopin
Prelude, Op. 11 No. 4 in E Minor, Alexander Scriabin
Prelude and Fugue in G Major, Well-Tempered Clavier Vol. 2, Johann Sebastian Bach
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Originally Posted by Roland The Beagle
Just in general, I am always amazed by the eloquence of your average educated individual in earlier times compared with today. This is my favorite piano book, which is the A-list of early 20th century pianists opining on pianism:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28026/28026-h/28026-h.htm

I wonder how many young pianists today can speak or even think like this.

Here's a quote from that:

"Work is the greatest intoxication, the greatest blessing, the greatest solace we can know. Therefore work, work, work."


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LOL for me, they could express it it more briefly and to the point. I'm also not sure I see the benefits of "The scale of C should be learned step by step until the practice habits are so formed that they will reign supreme while playing all the other scales. " I think other scales need other fingerings than the C scale to start with. And also it does not quite explain what "steps" are in learning the C scale. Nor why the C scale is so much more important than the A scale.

Liszt also touches a highly disputed topic. I don't think it really benefits your playing if you have the kind of emotions he is suggesting. But maybe that works for him ?


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Originally Posted by Roland The Beagle
"They never float, and the one who would have his scales shine with the beauty of splendid gems must first dive deep for the gems.



Funny, what with all the water imagery, the beautiful shining scales I first thought of were the kind that some fish have.

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Originally Posted by wouter79
Liszt also touches a highly disputed topic. I don't think it really benefits your playing if you have the kind of emotions he is suggesting. But maybe that works for him ?

I don't know, what do you think......did Liszt's style of playing work for him?


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>Liszt's style of playing work for him

Yes sure.

But the question is: did he indeed do what he said, or was that just selling pitch


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Originally Posted by wouter79
>Liszt's style of playing work for him

Yes sure.

But the question is: did he indeed do what he said, or was that just selling pitch

Interesting. How do you think he played?


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Well he is known to be a show man. So I guess nothing of this "life in consciousness " and "live the passions", but lot of exaggerated motions to give impression of emotions.


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Originally Posted by wouter79
Well he is known to be a show man. So I guess nothing of this "life in consciousness " and "live the passions", but lot of exaggerated motions to give impression of emotions.

That was certainly commented upon at the time, and to this day many still feel that way. Perhaps they still get their info from Ernest Newman's character assassination in his book 'The Man Liszt'. (Pity, because Newman wrote brilliantly about Wagner, Strauss, Wolf and Elgar... Beethoven not so much, IMO.)

At 36 Liszt gave up the career of a traveling virtuoso to concentrate on composition, and thus become another whipping boy for those who knew better.

Today many fancy themselves knowing better, and Liszt's genius as a pioneer in countless ways is either discounted or damned with faint praise.

Others, though, appreciate Liszt as one of the TITANS in all of classical music. It is impossible to overestimate the stature of this man. Even his cheapest operatic paraphrases not only trump any competition (Thalberg occasionally excepted), but always have an underlying nobility which might not be apparent to 20 or 21st century ears. Certainly I see that here.


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It's always good to look at data, and all we have here to work with are contemporary reports.

In this story, a girl came to take lessons from him, and he ended playing for her:

Originally Posted by Otis Boise
One day a rather assertive young lady called with an introductory card.....she began to play the F major etude (No 8) of Chopin. Her lackadaisical playing was startling, if anything so mild could be, when contrasted with her appearance and manner. It lacked every quality that could have made it adequate to her chosen task. Liszt could endure but a half dozen measures and then shouted "No! No!" rushed to the piano, nudged her off the chair and seated himself gave vent to his feelings in the most impetuous performance of this piece that I have ever heard. It relieved the master and did no violence to Chopin. As he turned from the piano, he said, "It should be something like that. Now go home, forget your dawdling, and come again later if you see fit."


Does that sound like someone who couldn't communicate emotion from the piano?


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Originally Posted by phantomFive
It's always good to look at data, and all we have here to work with are contemporary reports.

Interesting comment from Otis B. Boise. Where did you find that?

The name Boise rang a bell with me, and indeed Harold Schonberg generously quotes Boise when he visited Liszt in Weimar and the Master sight-read his symphony, much to Boise's giddy amusement.

And yet... after reading the John Ogdon bio, methinks Ogdon's sight-reading capabilities probably left Liszt far behind. People still living -Peter Maxwell Davies, Alistair Hinton, and Ronald Stevenson for example- back this up as they were interviewed for the book.

There seems to have been nothing, no matter how complex, piano or orchestral, that Ogdon could not sight-read.



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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by phantomFive
It's always good to look at data, and all we have here to work with are contemporary reports.

Interesting comment from Otis B. Boise. Where did you find that?

Here you go. I believe that contains the account Schonberg referred to, as well, so hope you can enjoy.

It is also interesting to see how Liszt arranged his household like a royal court, but with kindness to all.


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Originally Posted by phantomFive

Here you go. I believe that contains the account Schonberg referred to, as well, so hope you can enjoy.

Wow! Many thanks for that.

Quote
It is also interesting to see how Liszt arranged his household like a royal court, but with kindness to all.

Apparent from the Walker bio. Hopefully you read all three volumes?

We owe such a debt to Alan Walker. His writing on Liszt far surpasses any of the bios I had read previously. What an incredibly complex man, his piano playing, teaching and compositions will always challenge our perceptions (never very stable to be sure!) of this towering genius.


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Originally Posted by argerichfan

Apparent from the Walker bio. Hopefully you read all three volumes

Ah, there are lots of things on my list that I still need to read, but it seems strange to me that anyone could read contemporary reports of Liszt's playing and not think his own explanation of what he tried to do was accurate.

Here's a famous quote from Schumann, who surely understood music:
Originally Posted by Schumann
With the exception of Paganini no artist to a like degree possesses this power of subjecting the public, of lifting it, sustaining it, and letting it fall again....Within a few seconds tenderness, boldness exquisiteness, wildness succeed one another; the instrument glows and flashes under the master's hands. All this has already been described a hundred times....


And this one, from Amy Fay's description:
Originally Posted by Amy Fay
All playing sounds barren by the side of Liszt, for his is the living, breathing impersonation of poetry, passion, grace, wit coquetry, daring, tenderness, and every other fascinating attribute that you can think of!...He is a many-sided prism, and reflects back the light in all colours, no matter how you look at him.

Last edited by phantomFive; 07/06/14 01:38 PM. Reason: make more readable

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Originally Posted by phantomFive
...but it seems strange to me that anyone could read contemporary reports of Liszt's playing and not think his own explanation of what he tried to do was accurate.

And a quote from Clara Wieck:

Liszt played at sight what we toil over and at the end get nowhere with.

Clara had plenty of other things to say about Liszt, but we'll let the lady pass for being on the wrong side of history. crazy


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That's a good quote, too, and certainly she wasn't a fan who is blinded in her objectivity by her love for Liszt.

As long as we're on the topic, we might as well look at another quote, because studying great pianists helps us become better pianists. Here's one from Alexander Borodin:

Originally Posted by Alexander Borodin
This brings me to his playing: in spite of all that I had heard about it I was struck by the extreme simplicity, sobriety and discipline of his playing and the complete absence of pretentiousness, affectation and any striving for extraneous effect. He adopts moderate tempi, never rushes or gets carried away, and yet in spite of his age the power, energy, passion, enthusiasm and fire are boundless. His tone is round, full and firm; the clarity, richness and variety of nuance are amazing.


Poetry is rhythm

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