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Ill re-ask Ed's question: Please describe how you aurally/acurately transfer pitch from source to your E3-E4 temperament?
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Ill re-ask Ed's question: Please describe how you aurally/acurately transfer pitch from source to your E3-E4 temperament? That was my question too that I asked Isaac when he had posted the sequence. He suggested that I tune a fourth from a440 or fifth from below. Then e3 to e4 again a 4:2 octave also comparing the fifths and fourths. So it is two 4:2 octaves, first a4-a3 then, e4-e3.
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This is the result of the pitch up, pitch down pattern of detuning. Why? Not sure I get whats going on. Could you elaborate? Jim Ialeggio In the temperament section notes are detuned 4 times the excepted tolerance. So each note is detuned 4 cents. This makes it so that if an examinee doesn't tune a note, there will be a 4 point error. In the temperament section each point is multiplied by 2.5. This means that 8 points is the line between passing and not passing. So one note is tuned 4 cents sharp the next note is tuned 4 cents flat. This keeps the overall tension equal so the examinee doesn't have to deal with a pitch raise situation. So imagine F3 is 4 cents flat, F#3 is 4 cents sharp, G3 is 4 cents flat, G#3 is 4 cents sharp, A3 is 4 cents flat. A#3 is 4 cents sharp. You will see that both F3 and A3 are 4 cents flat of the master tuning. This means the beat speed of the third will be proper. But look at the F3 to A# 4th - the F3 is 4 cents flat and the A#3 is 4 cents SHARP! Since 4 cents is about a beat in this area of the piano the fourth will be beating about 3 beats per second! So the pattern makes for very even thirds because they are all sharp or flat the same direction.
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Still, I am glad that, when tuning, I too found the first fifths to be noisy and thought the octaves was not wide enough. Yet for now I can only tune 4:2 octaves with 3rd-10th test. If you found some things were wrong, you should have fixed them before you posted. Criticism of something you know is wrong serves no purpose.
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Still, I am glad that, when tuning, I too found the first fifths to be noisy and thought the octaves was not wide enough. Yet for now I can only tune 4:2 octaves with 3rd-10th test. If you found some things were wrong, you should have fixed them before you posted. Criticism of something you know is wrong serves no purpose. BDB, thank you for responding. I am not as sure as you pros about what I hear. That is why I said I am glad to learn that what I thought was right. But I can't tell that for sure by my own. I need verification from the pros here. Hence asking for my errors.
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Ultimately, self-criticism is the best criticism.
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With piano tuning, having a mentor listen and tell you when its good enough is very helpful. I remember my mentor sitting behind me while I tuned through a temperament. He kept me from obsessing over one note too long. "good enough. Move on!" or "that's good for now, come back to it later". One of the challenges when learning is getting bogged down on one note. It's better to keep moving and come back around. "The circle of refinement" applies to much of the work we do.
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too small E E octave, I suspect you did not use testing. 5ths and 4ths first then all available tests (they are not shown in the diagram I think)
If you really did that aurally, you can tune 5ths so you can tune a temperament. The rest is only a question of checks , when you made that too short octave, it was immediately heard that the 4 th up is too small (too pure) then you have mistakes in the base for the first intervals, and that wioll ultimately reflect on the fast beating ones. BUt p^recision in 5th and 4th allow to obtain progressive FBI without much effort so it is mor eimportyant to learn to appreciate those ones first.
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each new note in an octave span is reflected with the other note of the octave, hence the interest of that EbE4 (A4) temperament.
E4 is simply set with a fourth and 5th then the octave done and the 5th and 4th compared (or with FBI) but listening directly to the octave is cool enough. Try the smallest one, the largest one, decide what sound nice and go from there. Octaves are a little as 5ths. But the leeway in small pianos with large iH is larger.
Anyway better like the octave sound directly, more than with partial matches, the partial will match also.
Last edited by Olek; 07/06/14 03:06 PM.
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I am actually trying to match the 4th and 2nd partials for the octave, by using the equal beating F3-F10 test. Is that a too little octave?
Also, today I tried the other Steinway temperament from the service manual. That is the A3-A4 temperament. Again setting the A3-A4 as a 4:2 octave.
Gosh, that was hard, especially to check for the FBI which really beat fast.
Eventually I gave up. I will try once more tomorrow.
Any suggestion on how to proceed with that temperament?
BTW, it is:
A4-A3-E4-B3-F#4-C#4-G#4-D#4-A#3-F4-C4-G4-D4
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It is just like how you get to Carnegie Hall-practice, practice, practice.
Set A220 to A440 using the 3rd/10th test but lower A220 enough that the 3rd is ever so slightly slower than the 10th. Then tune your fourth above A220 to 1 beat per second. The beat rate of the 5th from E to A440 will be slowed by the exact same amount you widened the 4-2 octave. And that sounds good. Usually means the fifth is narrowed by 1.5 cent, and the fourth is at nearly two cents wide.
This is why inharmonicity is good. It lets you improve on the tempering to reduce the beat rates of the 5ths in the middle of the piano by widening the 4-2 octaves. But as you move the temperament up the compass, bring the 4-2 octaves into unison. And as you get to top, bring the 2-1 octaves nearly into unison.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible. According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: toneman1@me.com
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It should perhaps be mentioned that the quality of progression of the M3/M6 beatrates of this aural tuning by Hakki has not been surpassed by anyone here who posted audio samples of their tunings, ETD or aural, with the exception of Berhard Stopper, who used a customized version of his OnlyPure software.
Kees
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It should perhaps be mentioned that the quality of progression of the M3/M6 beatrates of this aural tuning by Hakki has not been surpassed by anyone here who posted audio samples of their tunings, ETD or aural, with the exception of Berhard Stopper, who used a customized version of his OnlyPure software.
Kees I think it also bears mentioning that we don't know if Hakki actually tuned this as there is absolutely no proof. All we have is recordings of intervals, some of which not with clean unisons... Certainly not horrible but also not perfect either. We also know nothing about the stability of whatever has been done here. Fussing around with a piano that has had various tinkerings with ETD's and so forth really proves nothing. We also haven't heard anything beyond the temperament octave. The rest matters just as much, if not more so. I remain as ambivalent about it as I am unimpressed.
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Baldwin F 1960 (146256) Zuckermann Flemish Single
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It should perhaps be mentioned that the quality of progression of the M3/M6 beatrates of this aural tuning by Hakki has not been surpassed by anyone here who posted audio samples of their tunings, ETD or aural, with the exception of Berhard Stopper, who used a customized version of his OnlyPure software.
Kees I think it also bears mentioning that we don't know if Hakki actually tuned this as there is absolutely no proof. All we have is recordings of intervals, some of which not with clean unisons... Certainly not horrible but also not perfect either. We also know nothing about the stability of whatever has been done here. Fussing around with a piano that has had various tinkerings with ETD's and so forth really proves nothing. We also haven't heard anything beyond the temperament octave. The rest matters just as much, if not more so. I remain as ambivalent about it as I am unimpressed. I am impressed by your ability to detect unclean unisons from what I thought to be single string intervals, as well as imperfections that are beyond what I can measure. I'll be happy to measure beats on your M3/M6 progression if you'd care to post them, to prove your superiority. Including a sworn statement by a notary public that you actually tuned what you posted of course. Kees
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This temperament is proof that thirds can be pretty good, even though some 4ths and 5ths are a bit wild. The trick is to get all the intervals as good as possible. My ETD will often tune a temperament like that - and I fix it by ear before continuing. Having said that, for a newbie, it's a pretty good effort.
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The 5ths can be progressively cleaner, that at last helps to have some coloring change between tonalities.
In fact, when the 5ths are good, the M3 will, hence the interest and difficulty to learn 5ths . I find also they help for octaves.
Yes it looks as an ETD result
Last edited by Olek; 07/07/14 10:51 AM.
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I am impressed by your ability to detect unclean unisons from what I thought to be single string intervals, as well as imperfections that are beyond what I can measure.
I'll be happy to measure beats on your M3/M6 progression if you'd care to post them, to prove your superiority. Including a sworn statement by a notary public that you actually tuned what you posted of course.
Kees
If you listen carefully to the "Hamburg Sequence" at 0:21 - 0:29 the tenor C below is quite obviously out of unison and not muted to a single string. I'm surprised your sophisticated equipment didn't catch that, but for some reason my aural tuning ears did. Apparently, despite all the talk, Mr. Hakki didn't catch what is usually the first annoyance of most pianists, or just didn't bother to continue beyond the temperament. Such a thing, is really quite pointless. After all the input given in the PTG thread on tuning I'm surprised one would be so bold to submit such a thing and then convince us it was aurally tuned and give absolutely no evidence what so ever that it was. I remain as skeptical as always.
PTG Associate AIO Regular Member ASCAP Pipe Organ Builder Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts Church Music Professional AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
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Well, whatever, the result is what matters and it is not really bad
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After tinkering with the a3-a4 temperament yesterday, and before that with the e3-e4, today when I came back from work, I found that the pitch has dropped by itself.
It is obvious that I am certainly not using the hammer correctly, and I won't be tinkering with the temperament octave anymore. Wish I had a cheap practice piano to try these things out more, but I can't risk my RX-2.
Anyway it was worth the experience. Be it 99% rookie's luck, now I can better understand why aural tuners might have more satisfaction with their work. It is really a very great feeling to know that one has accomplished a difficult task.
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Well, whatever, the result is what matters and it is not really bad Yes and certainly that must be acknowledged. I think you may be right Isaac about the ETD part. It seems, with very few exceptions, that most who start out with doing an aural equal temperament make the 4ths and 5ths too pure, and it takes a great deal of practice to let go of that in favor of properly progressing 3rds and placing the other intervals in proper relationship. So if Hakki did indeed do this "from scratch" with out any pre-existing foundation for the temperament (unlikely) that is indeed some remarkable beginners luck. But here is an admission as well... ...today when I came back from work, I found that the pitch has dropped by itself. I think these results would be more interesting to me to hear than what was originally provided. I think on my score card I would give a B- for the temperament, and well, subject to further evidence, a D on stability. A temperament that moves isn't very useful. Wish I had a cheap practice piano to try these things out more, but I can't risk my RX-2. That's probably a good idea. It's suffered enough.
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