Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Piano Magic - Small Right Hand Cannot Span an Octave

I was a Piano Magic member for 3 years, but I finally left because a combination of advancing age (66), arthritis, and a childhood injury involving a compound fracture of the right arm kept me from comfortably spreading my right fingers to form a full octave and still allow the fingers in between to hit the target chord tones. Unfortunately, this was a core component of the method, because it conserves brain space in that the fixed octave position allows the inner fingers to hit harmonious chord tones without thinking, as if on full automatic. I then tried the PFA method of playing chords under the melody note which was always on top. It worked fine but it requires a modicum of thinking where the chord notes are, unlike the Piano Magic method which is like a fixed finger pattern method applied on a rote basis.

Nonetheless, Mike's technique, especially his signature chicken foot left hand, is still my all time favorite method. I only wish he can find a way to deliver the same magical music without the full octave right hand requirement. I know he tried to address this issue when I was still a member, but trying to locate that post among over 15,000 posts would be akin to looking for a needle in a haystack, given that there are no predefined search criteria in the system.

What do former and current Piano Magic members think? I want to be the Prodigal Son that came back but need some reassurance that there is a place for me in Piano Magic given my physical limitations.

Cheers,

Aka Filipiano

I was a Piano Magic member for a year and I'm not sure what exactly it is you are asking. Are you asking if a former member remembers that post or are you asking if a current or more recent member knows that Mike has developed this alternative approach further for those, like you, who can't reach an octave, before you spend the $90 to renew your membership? Either way, why not just call Mike up or email him and ask him. He usually was pretty responsive to both types of inquiries as I remember.

I agree that the fixed ocatave hand position was very useful, and is a particularly effective way of developing your ear, because it is so easy to see the intervals between the chord tones and correlate the aural with the visual--at least it was for me. But this would have been useless without learning to also see and hear the order of chords in basic cadences and progressions. Mike did an excellent job of teaching these, but I thought he could have been clearer with the more advanced ones which depended on more rapidly shifting key centers around the circle of fifths and involved chord substitutions, most of which, as you describe, and referring to anything extraneous to his basic beginner's method, wasn't readily available in the core lessons, but which you needed to search for in "15,000 posts" to find.

Maybe then what you're asking more recent members is something I'd be interested in learning myself, have things changed enough at PM to make it worth revisiting for the price.

Forgive me for commenting -- I know nothing of "Piano Magic". But it sounds like a technique for playing (and harmonizing) songs, with some rather rigid rules for how the RH harmonies are constructed.

. . . And you are unable to follow those rules, at least with your right hand.

So why not do things _right_:

. . . Learn enough harmony so that you _can_ use your right hand (at less-than-octave spread)
. . . to play both melody and harmony, over a bass line.

That is going to need a fair bit of finger independence, because you'll be playing the RH chords in all inversions. But there's nothing magic, or terribly difficult, about it.

Piano teachers can be really helpful in situations like this. If you can arrange lessons with somebody who teaches jazz/pop styles, they might be able to help you a lot. And if you don't really understand harmony, the construction of chords, and reading lead sheets, this is a good time to start learning.

. Charles

PS -- if I've misunderstood "Piano Magic", or your situation, please ignore this comment.

You are right, Charles, the rules are very rigid but they are also simple and easy to learn without a private teacher, which many people can't afford, though your advice is sound enough for those who can. The key to the success of this method is, I think, the fact that it teaches just enough harmonic theory and techniques to get most people up and playing songs in a few weeks, and developing their ear through exploring and hearing music instead of doing ear training and theory exercises while painstakingly learning technique. The former allows them to go beyond the rules by listening deeply to the music in the process of creating it, while the latter may take years of joyless abstraction to develop this ability.

I've tried both ways. I've taken an advanced theory class, where we were taught bass lines correlated with identification of inversions in a figured bass. I know harmonic grammar, which chords are used in cadences, which chords are used to approach cadences, and which chords to use to pivot to other keys. And I finally found a piano teacher exactly like the one you describe, who has me working with a fake book. It all helps, but I understand Fili's fondness for Piano Magic and why he puts so much faith in it. So far, it's helped me as much or more than any course or teacher I've ever studied from.

OK -- that's a good testimonial. I'm going to take a look at it. I'm sorry if I sounded dismissive; anything that helps people play, is good.

What happens if you do the simplest thing to change the "Piano Magic" constructions:

. . . Where the RH stretches an octave, _leave out
. . . the bottom note_ of the octave.

. . . Re-distribute the other notes
. . . to the thumb and four fingers.

That keeps the melody (normally the top note) intact, and keeps the harmony intact, and reduces the stretch. It won't sound as full as the octave-stretch version, but it might be OK.

My teacher's suggestion, as a starting point for harmonizing:

. . . Root and fifth in the LH,
. . . everything else (3rd, 7th, etc) in the RH.

The OP seems to be stuck. I think there are lots of ways to solve the puzzle.

. Charles

Yes, then you would be playing a sixth, which is what I think Mike recommended people with hands too small to play an octave do.



Yes, Mike has a technique called "floppy thumb" which allows the thumb to play any note it can stretch to from where the index finger or third finger is anchored, good for adding tension notes ("color" notes) and strumming or drumming (adding rhythm) techniques, used in a lot of popular music.



Yes, I think I now remember Fili or someone like him was there when I was a member and this is what Mike recommended, that he play 6ths and then reach for the root or octave note, but its been a while so I won't swear to it.



Yes, PM's too.



6ths, Fili, and floppy thumb, remember? Only in your case, you might have to let go instead of keeping the lower note of the 6th anchored.

Nice of you to want to help, Charles.

Hey Fil, I remember you well, you joined not long after i did in '07. Well ... I'm a year older (67), hands still beat-up like they've been for years, a tad of arthritis too but still chugging along.

We were lucky to have been there in the hey-day! Mike's been slowed with some medical stuff, etc. so it's active in spurts now.

You know what, I never did a lot of RH octaves back then either. I'd tell anyone to go with what works best for one's hands/fingers, then let the ears tell you what is working well w/RH harmony and tweak what needs tweaking.

I'm a chicken foot guy too but Sponge Bob (still a PM member) doesn't use it and he can play the heck out of a piano.

I'd call Mike like Starr said then go from there ... there is a deep search function over there now that makes it easier to dig out useful information.


Popeye

Hi Rerun,

I'm sorry to hear about Mike's health problems, but thanks for letting us know about the improved search function on the site. That alone might be worth paying the $90 to renew membership.

So, you've been a member since 2007? Wow! You may have been there even longer than Seaside Lee. Is he still there? And Honey (Rusty), I think she started in 2005, is she still there? We kept in touch for a while, but then we lost track. I'm not surprised Sponge Bob's still there. He and Lee are probably Mike's greatest success stories.

I was there in 2009. Mike was really hands on for the latter part of that year and we did some really cool stuff. But I heard he did some even cooler stuff in the earlier years and had some really great students who went on to become teachers themselves.

Mike was always trying to upgrade the site, so, even without his steady attendance, I'm sure there's still enough there to make it worth the price of membership, especially for beginners.

Hey Starr ... I think?? Mike's on the mend now from a heart problem. I called him a few weeks ago and I could tell he was hurting pretty good.

Lee and Honeycomb were on board waaay before I got there as was SB. Lee checked back in a month ago but everyone is looking forward to the action picking back up like it was when you were there. YOU really kept things hopping and fun over there and are missed like many who have moved on to other studies.

Pop

Thanks for the update, Rerun, and for the kind words about my being missed. I missed a lot of people too, but I kept in touch with several, via email my videos.

Its nice to see you and Filo again, I hope you will continue to perform in the ecital as you did this quarter, and we could also use both you and Filo at the monthly piano bar, which is just like the Recital Room at PM.

Sounds like you're expecting Lee to liven things up. I'm sure having him back will cheer Mike up.

What ever happened to that really good jazz player from Vegas, who played sax for like ten years. The first song he did at PM was "You Belong to Me", and Mike put his "Amazing Grace" on the sample page of student recordings accessible by non members, it was so good. His name is on the tip of my tongue. He went away and came back just before I left. I found a post from him here when I first joined but then I could never find him again. His name is on the tip of my tongue. I loved his playing and he was very astute and helpful.

Filibogado, what is the PFA method? Do you mean Piano for all?

That sounds like Buck ... or Deep Elam over here. Super talented guy. Don't know where he is now, haven't seen a post at either site in several years. Lee posted for a few weeks but not lately.

Yeah "Buck"! Thanks! I think he and Elssa were the two people who inspired me the most while I was there. But I think they both had already developed considerable chops before they joined. Not beginners, they....

....Oh, I just have to ask you one more question, did that young Indian man, Aneesh (I think??), who sent us the beautiful pictures of his wedding when he got married, did he ever renew his membership after I left? He wanted to learn so badly and tried so hard, and I tried to get him to come here if he couldn't afford the membership fee, but I worried that his new responsibilities (wife and baby) would make it too difficult.

Oh, and BTW, I'm pretty sure you weren't called Rerun at PM and I know who you are. (still watching "Buddy Ebsen" rerun?)

I remember those pics but Aneesh hasn't posted in quite some time; haven't even seen a Buddy Ebsen movie/sitcom listed in ages. Btw, don't you have a piano he owned?

I was Rerun here before I was Popeye over there. Seaside Lee, Matt, Balladeer, and a boatload more got me to take a look at PM ... sure glad they did. Still have a ways to go, but I've never heard anyone more pathetic than I was before I saw PM mentioned here.

Had. It was stolen. I think by the same crew who moved it up here from L.A. A long story, I'd rather forget, but one that Buddy would have appreciated, since he was also a crime novelist.



Before my time. You must not have been that active after I started participating here in 2010, otherwise I would have noticed you (different name or not). I looked for you guys after I joined. I was hoping I'd see Cats here since our interests are so similar, to sing and accompany ourselves(we even bought the same dp on the same day at GC.). How's she doing?



Ditto for me

Wow, I can think of a lot lighter things to run out of a house and down the street with than a piano, sorry. I liked the heck out of Ebsen.

Cats is doing great ... just got a new Kawai digital with all the bells/whistles.

Me too! Maybe it was foolish paying to have a piano moved from so far away, but I believe spirits walk among us, so when I started learning piano, I wanted to put myself in touch with a spirit of great creative intelligence and resourcefulness. One of my earliest memories was watching him dance with Shirley Temple on TV when I was just a little younger then her character in the movie. He called her "Starr" and so I took that as my Piano Magic name and kept it to this day.

You know he had about ten different careers, more if you count the ones he lived vicariously through his characters. Acting was the one least planned. He wanted to be a doctor and was pre-med when the Depression hit and he had to quit school, figuring the best opportunities were as a dancer (people who couldn't support themselves any other way were getting 3 meals a day dancing in the marathon dance contests). He eventually got him and his sister to Broadway where they were discovered by a talent scout and brought to Hollywood. But after appearing successfully in many musicals, he stood up to Louie B. Mayer at MGM over creative differences, and was fired.

He went to sea for a few years and when he returned started a boat building business that was pretty successful. Then in 1961 at the age of 53, he made a comeback in film with Breakfast at Tiffany's with Audrey Hepburn, which contributed to his super long and successful TV career.

He started studying and teaching himself piano in his 60's. He wrote an autobiography and a novel, both well reviewed, and started painting in his early 70's. Then when his film and TV work dried up, he began a successful Internet business selling his paintings at age 79, and was working on his second novel when he died at age 96. All this and he still had time to parent five or six daughters.

My favorite role of his and one of the best IMO in any movie is Doc Golightly in Breakfast at Tiffany's, maybe because in it he got to lead the life he had dreamed of for himself and felt suited him best.

He was everything a celebrity should be and rarely is these days; he was a role model.

Say hello to Cats for me. Try to get her over here sometime to sing and play for us so I can see how she's progressed.

As one might guess, my favorite role of his was with Fess Parker in "Davy Crockett".




Done ... btw, she'll become a grandmother inside a few weeks.

Yes, PFA is Piano for All by Robin Hall. It's actually an excellent course and I would recommend it highly, specially the latest version which is chockful of embedded video and audio files that you can call from right within the hard copy page you're on. I just finished Book 5 Ballads and starting Book 6 Jazz. It complements and makes a nice addition to Pianomagic.

Fil