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#2300219 - 07/09/14 11:31 AM 5mm keydip
chopin_r_us Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: UK
I just replaced the moth eaten front key punchings with newish ones that are too fat (that's all I had) and I suddenly find myself with a working 5mm keydip! Is it as easy as that?

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#2300228 - 07/09/14 12:02 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
rysowers Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Olympia, WA
yes
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#2300229 - 07/09/14 12:05 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: UK
So with $12 worth of punchings I've now got a kind-of Viennese 1780's touch? If a little heavier?

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#2300231 - 07/09/14 12:09 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21921
Loc: Oakland
If the rest of the action is designed for it. If you reduce the key dip, you may not have any escapement.
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#2300260 - 07/09/14 01:31 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: UK
Well, yea, it's working.

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#2300414 - 07/09/14 08:22 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
Weiyan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 773
Loc: Hong Kong
What's blow distance? The blow distance may around 25mm with this keydip. You have to play harder to make loud enough. So you feel its heavier.
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#2300470 - 07/09/14 10:27 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
rysowers Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2503
Loc: Olympia, WA
If the dip is shallow enough you don't need escapement: the hammer won't quite make it all the way to the strings. A 5mm keydip might only move the hammer 30-35 mm. I would think there'd be some bobbling hammer issues though...
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#2300479 - 07/09/14 10:44 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21921
Loc: Oakland
And the dampers may not clear the strings, if they lift at all.
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#2300509 - 07/10/14 12:14 AM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
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Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2414
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
And then the sostenuto wont work either.
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#2300546 - 07/10/14 01:52 AM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: UK
We're talking about my 1830/40 upright here. I still can't quite get my head round the fact it seems to work fine with the keydip of a clavichord. The punchings are about 6mm - I've sent off for 4mm ones instead. Quite what the extra keydip will be for, I'm not sure.

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#2300559 - 07/10/14 02:52 AM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 760
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
If the front punching were moth eaten, then the balance rails punchings may also be about disintegrated. If the balance rail punchings are replaced then that will also increase the key dip.
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#2300560 - 07/10/14 02:57 AM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
8-9 mm key dip seem to be a minimum.
I have an original Pleyel jauge from 1905 at 9 mmm
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#2300735 - 07/10/14 01:28 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: Chris Leslie]
chopin_r_us Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
If the front punching were moth eaten, then the balance rails punchings may also be about disintegrated. If the balance rail punchings are replaced then that will also increase the key dip.
Thanks for that but they're paper!

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#2301193 - 07/11/14 04:12 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
bellspiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 526
Loc: Boston, MA
So the original balance pin felts are gone completely? This is not good. It would be hard to make sense of any regulation measurements in that case.
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Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA

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#2301198 - 07/11/14 04:24 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: UK
I don't think there ever was felt there.

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#2301207 - 07/11/14 05:03 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
bellspiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/04
Posts: 526
Loc: Boston, MA
On this point our opinions differ.
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Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA

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#2301233 - 07/11/14 06:22 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 760
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Does this piano have a back stop rail for the key sticks? If so, and it hasn't been fiddled with or rotted away, then that may help to determine the key dip.
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Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2301294 - 07/11/14 08:44 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: chopin_r_us]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Before the moth there was some felt, never seen a piano without.
And never seen one with 5 mm keydip, may be 7 mm for a very short stroke.

You may have about 3 mm of the pin in the mortise.
You may have an acceptable thin space between the back of the keys and the case part. the wood discoloration on the blocks may be show where the key height was .
With very low keyboard I think the sharps must be very high against the white keys when both are down.

You may need to unscrew a lot the "capstan" (that does not mean much if the hammer rail is bowed or the hammers are farther from the strings at rest than they should.

You can take a bubble jauge and see at what point the keys are level. I think they are possibly level at mid blow.

Any balance punching was probably very thin, 0.9 mm at the max.

test with carboard paper punchings to see if the touch is better.

It is too noisy if there is no balance punching.

Look under the keyframe for shims, so in case the punching you install are still too thick you can lower by subtracting some ( under the balance rail)


What counts is that the jack is in a good position with the key at full dip, and that the dip is not really far of even old standards

You may like 5 mm as it strengthen the touch and tone but rise the keys a little and test for a more supple playing.




Edited by Olek (07/12/14 06:20 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2301297 - 07/11/14 08:47 PM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: Chris Leslie]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Does this piano have a back stop rail for the key sticks? If so, and it hasn't been fiddled with or rotted away, then that may help to determine the key dip.


Not so much Chris without the good key level.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2301356 - 07/12/14 01:12 AM Re: 5mm keydip [Re: bellspiano]
chopin_r_us Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: bellspiano
On this point our opinions differ.
There would be some tiny degraded bits left if that was so - there's nothing.

Thanks folks for all your help. I can't do anything till my new front punchings arrive from the US then I'm off on holiday for 6 weeks!

The actual point of all this is how tired I've grown from playing on the modern keydip. I can't face it much more, it's so clumsy.

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