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That is interesting, opinions certainly differs, on the best regulation for the dampers .I suggest what you notice is the lenghtened time an less effective damping of basses.

On Steinways an Yamahas the inidividual timing of the dampers is later for the heavy basses dampers (as on many pianos)
The dampers go down in a 2 time sequence, but test it by yourself.
If you release more fast the peal, the extinxion is short, there is a little left in basses but very short.

I am not sure it would be appreciated to have the last played notes "bleeding" thru the basses, the last resonances are in the treble if possible.
Now I am not pianist , just understand a bit. I will ask how this is envisaged to different teatchers and pianists I know.

If I understand well the study I gave the link, just lightening the pressure on the bass dampers allow the notes to produce or "bleed" more partials some that are not present in normal playing. If that work also with sympathetic resonance I dont know but that would enlight a lot the melodic section in that case, I think.

Regards

That's interesting, Marty. We studied at sister schools! I graduated from the Universität für Musik und darstellende Kunst, Graz in 2003. I majored in classical guitar and only minored in piano though. It's a small world though. It's a great school - both campuses.

I think I understand what you are saying, Olek. In my experience, on most pianos it's possible to sustain the bass while "clipping" the treble. This involves using very quick dips of the dampers so that, regardless of damper timing, the bass dampers are not given enough time to fully damp the note due to the great mass of the strings, but the trebles, being more efficient are able to damp their notes (mostly, at least).

On the other hand, I can see that when using the dampers in a different way, like fully engaging the dampers, you want the notes to damp in a certain order. But that's where the skill of the pianist comes into it, I think. If you have a real sensitivity in your pedal technique, it's possible to do things with the dampers that most tech's give little thought to - though I'm sure some do. That is not a slight at piano techs either - many of them are also fine players who are perfectly aware of these things, and many know of these techniques even if they don't use them themselves. But it does illustrate the point that a skilled pianist can do things with the piano mechanism that a technician may not fully understand or appreciate. That's not usually a big deal because the pianist can usually do these things on any piano - regardless of its damper timing. What matters most is that the dampers all work and that they aren't drastically out of sync with each other. If that is the case, the pianist can usually adapt.

Ando, yes I am aware of how wonderfully the pianist "read" the instrument, , make a map and keep that automatically in his mind while playing.

I will investigate further.
I think it can be a good thing to have the tone opening for all notes simultaneously .
Probably, to do so the treble must rise first.

In the end I "tune" for the sustain pedal, as I want the rise in tone to be very immediate for all the notes sharing the same partials.

I like the idea that the tuning addresses the whole instrument, as this mean all the acoustic parts, bridge and soundboard, are helped by the the way the input energy is spread.

As I lenghten the tone, there is less energy for the "attack", but then that is provided by the resonance of lower and higher notes, so the attack is still crisp and present.

But mostly, the slight opening of the peal emphases that effect.(I hear the tone literally jumping as soon the peal is open)

Possibly the pedal is then more efficient in half and why not less open modes.

So you think it will be more useful to verify that the basses can stay active while the treble can be damping short ?

I suppose it can be possible with the slightly sooner opening of the treble, it means the pedal have to be pushed a little deeper, so I can see how the pianist adapt then.

Any interest to en-light mostly the treble with a half (or 1/4) pedal ? I thought it had at last in interest for difficult legatos and also to have the treble sing clear while the basses stay quiet.
We will experiment with this with a teacher this summer. Since then I can ask pianists.

Regards

Dampers are regulated, as Steinway says, so that all the dampers lift at the same time. On a grand, this is visual. You can see the underlevers lift as the pedal is pushed. The wedge felts will usually damp strings longer than the flat felts, because it takes longer for them to clear the strings. The wedge felts tend to be on the longer strings, which move more than the shorter strings. Both of these factors mean that half-pedaling has more of an effect on the lower notes than on the high notes. I have said all of that before.

Of course, wear tends to change things. Felts crush. Damper trays can bend on grands, damper lifter rods can bend on verticals. If there is a bass sustain pedal, that is a source for more uneven wear. Lost motion in the damper rods changes, which can account for someone thinking that there are two levels of pedal response. People rarely want to spend the money to re-regulate the dampers, particularly for a rarely used effect which is not particularly precise in any case.

Thankfully.

WHile regulating the dampers on most pianos is done by turning a capstan I see the question only for Yamahas or Steinways.

The wedges and coins are cuts with scissors so they are not protuberant under the strings. If that is done they cause zero late timing or other noise problem.

Doesn't everybody? Just kidding. And since I was one for many years I thought it might be applicable. We are sharing from personal experience, are we not?



So now that the cross hairs are upon you, you wish to amend the rules? We are not on the debate team here.



I believe a number of individuals have given you adequate room to include the performance, performer, and literature perspective. However, when Marty did so you became defensive and questioned his "credentials" which, if I may say, are far more obvious than yours appear to be.



In a context such as this liking or disliking an individual is as irrelevant as it is immaterial. It is about the exchange of thought, techniques, perspective, etc. from a capable, informed, and experienced position. If you are here to make friends I'm afraid you will be disappointed.

The reason pianists are rarely able to use the effect, is because technicians rarely know how to regulate dampers accurately enough. If the system doesn't work, pianists can't use it.

This is one of the main reasons why technicians are not able to regulate dampers so that pianists can properly access the full range of damper pedal affects. It is counterintuitive to regulate the damper system by sight when the system functions by sound. The sight methodology will indeed 'look' good (i.e., which is why some manufactures recommend that procedure), but it will result in the system not sounding/functioning properly. Pianists require control over the sound; they don't care what the dampers look like when they move.

Don't you see what you can't hear?

Dear Marty,

I'll leave the questioning to others (if they so wish). But I have searched for your credentials for some time, and have come up with nothing conclusive. Your credentials do appear to be rather well-hidden.

Pray point me in the right direction.

Mark R,

If you will simply read back through this thread, you will see them identified along with the institutions from which they were obtained. They are hardly hidden.

I didn't think that Fraternity affiliation was really necessary, so it wasn't included.

Pianists who are particular about what they want from a damper pedal evaluate the regulation by sound not look. I have seen CA Steinways that have the dampers regulated that way for these pianists, factory specifications be dammed.

The reason pianists are rarely able to use the effect, is because technicians rarely know how to regulate dampers accurately enough. If the system doesn't work, pianists can't use it.[\quote]

Is there a case study or some sort of factual figure you wish to cite other than giving the generalization of "technicians rarely know how to regulate?" Care to venture a guess?

SMHaley, BDB mentioned he regulated by sight. Sight will never make the dampers sound properly. As far as I am aware, and the evidence that has been presented so far, this seems to be pretty wide-spread. Would you like to discuss why that is, or are you simply trying to make a snappy retort?

How, exactly, do you regulate dampers to get them to function properly? Please share with us everything you know about damper work, and we can use you as a case study, for everyone to see...I mean: hear.

Sounds like a good idea, right?

It seems like you have something to say on the matter. So, please, share with the forum your thoughts on damper regulation and how/what it should be.

There are a lot of big hats here, and not much cattle. Maybe Mr. A443 should tell us how he regulates dampers before he asks others how it is done. So far, all we have gotten out of him is a lot of insults, a lot of bragging, a lot of unlikely claims, but no meat.
Same for Mr. McMorrow. If I can explain the process, others should be able to do it at least as well.

I think rough regulating anything by sight is certainly the first step. But I never said I disagree with using one's ears either. If one reads my comments in the ETD debate I'm a strong advocate of listening. A complete picture of piano tone isn't going to be made with the eyes or on a scope.

Actually, if anything, I tend to find dampers move far too much...especially with the Korean stencil imports I stumble across. There is no reason for the damper rise to be in excess of a half inch. Enough to clear and leave the string open is all that is needed. Anything further, in my view, is "lost motion."

Sure BDB, I would be happy to explain to you how to regulate dampers so that they work properly.

But lets be clear: just because you haven't spent the time thinking about how the system functions, and how to maximise its potential, doesn't mean that other people are being insulting and/or bragging. I don't know what you don't know, what you don't do, what you don't see, or what you don't hear: that is something that you need to first demonstrate. Afterwards, if I see any flaws in your process, I can bring them to your attention.

In this case, you have overlooked the importance of how the dampers actually sound, by placing more importance on what they look like. This is why you at al. aren't able to produce a half pedal that functions. I may have mentioned before, but let me repeat: the damper system is intended to evenly "control" the sound. Sound, then, stands to reason, should be your main guiding principal during the regulation process--not sight!!!

Since you were unwilling to share the details of your process, I have to assume you line-up/square the dampers on the strings, make sure things are moving straight up-and-down, and then make sure they all start moving at the same time (i.e., looking in the action cavity). However, that is not enough.

You also have to use the damper rod to prop-up the tray to the point where each string is allowed to, ever so slightly, resonate/dampen in the exact same manner when plucked. Every string of the trichord must resonate/dampen in the exact same manner throughout the entire piano. Naturally, it won't, unless you make it--you must be vigilant with ensuring the strings and the dammer heads are perfectly level...continuing with the process, until you have consistency.

Once that is establish, put the action in and use a mp staccato blow up-and-down the scale, taking notes as what direction you need to adjust the damper leaver until you attain the same tonal length of sound envelope over the entire system at the keyboard=this is the ONLY thing that matters (i.e., plucking is for convenience to get the system in the neighbourhood). You are looking for a tone, that has a rather quick controlled damp to the tone with some sustain (i.e., you by pass the decay, and go straight to the sustain). Pull the action, make the adjustments, and repeat the process until it is perfect.

Adjust the pedal rod properly, and now you have a damper system that EVERY pianist will appreciate--because it now works as intended.

SMHaley, you didn't provide any insight to how YOU regulate dampers. What is YOUR experience? Would you like to share any insight?

So far, with your lack of input, you are nicely proving my case: most technicians know little, if anything, about how to regulate dampers.

If you would like to prove me wrong, then you are going to have to write in a manner that demonstrates that you have competency in this area. Surly, you know there are still MANY more details to discuss. The only reason why would wouldn't, is because it could detail your [lack] of understanding. But, please, prove me wrong: let's have an in-depth discussion about damper work. I've taken the first step, now it is your turn to contribute to the discussion.

I want to talk about dampers. SMHaley, please contribute some substance. Show us what YOU have thought about. Please?!?!

So despite the fact that I have repeatedly said that I have posted instructions for regulating the dampers, something that you could have verified easily enough, you choose to make an assumption.

Well, for the moment, we should put that aside, and I would like to know: How long does it take you to do this, and how often do you do this to pianos that you service?