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I spent a little time searching this forum to hopefully find some answers to my topic. I didn't find what I wanted and I apologize if I'm covering old ground.
Per Dr. Chang's great book (mainly), I have tried keyboard memory which to me means visualizing the keyboard away from the piano and then visualizing your fingers playing music on this mental picture. I've had a little success tho because I find it so time consuming, I've not gotten involved with it lately. But there's an aspect of this that really bugs me and makes me feel really dumb or thinking that since I'm now in my dotage, alzheimers is starting to set in.
Sitting well positioned at the piano, if I position my head as if I'm looking down at the piano, but with my eyes closed, I try to visualize where a note, or chords, will be found. But if I then try to play what I visualize, eyes still closed, I hit wrong notes. Its as if I can't seem to get an accurate picture of the keyboard in my mind. Alternately, if I open my eyes after getting what I think is an accurate mental picture of the keyboard, the keys are not where I thought they would be. So for me, it would seem, I need to improve the mental picture of the keyboard. I might add that despite this problem I've still gotten benefit from keyboard memory tho I see a tendency to try to visualize the written score when I'm doing this. So today I tried closing my eyes and telling myself to touch a given note by first visualizing its position on my mental keyboard. I can only do that most of the time and the further I get away from middle C the harder it gets. I've been tackling some fairly tough stuff over the past 4+ years I've been back at the piano eg. Chopin nocturnes, Scott Joplin. But maybe this problem accounts in large part for the fact that I only very seldom get thru a piece without making flubs.
I can imagine this topic will be considered very basic by many, but any thoughts on how I can better implant a mental picture of the keyboard would be appreciated.
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any thoughts on how I can better implant a mental picture of the keyboard would be appreciated.
Just practice it more. Innate, genetic characteristics will determine how well you can do such a thing without practice, how quickly you improve at it (and in what way[s]), and how well you can ever be at it. You just happen to have characteristics that aren't well suited for it (barring functional cognitive decencies). Practice visualizing more.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind." R. W. Emerson
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. I've had a little success tho because I find it so time consuming, I've not gotten involved with it lately. But there's an aspect of this that really bugs me and makes me feel really dumb or thinking that since I'm now in my dotage, alzheimers is starting to set in. Nah, don't worry about that, it's not a symptom of Alzheimers unless you can see this post twice. Then you need to worry.
Poetry is rhythm
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Joined: Jan 2014
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. I've had a little success tho because I find it so time consuming, I've not gotten involved with it lately. But there's an aspect of this that really bugs me and makes me feel really dumb or thinking that since I'm now in my dotage, alzheimers is starting to set in. Nah, don't worry about that, it's not a symptom of Alzheimers unless you can see this post twice. Then you need to worry.
Poetry is rhythm
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. I've had a little success tho because I find it so time consuming, I've not gotten involved with it lately. But there's an aspect of this that really bugs me and makes me feel really dumb or thinking that since I'm now in my dotage, alzheimers is starting to set in. Nah, don't worry about that, it's not a symptom of Alzheimers unless you can see this post twice. Then you need to worry. Made me laugh so I can't be too far demented.
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Joined: Jan 2014
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. I've had a little success tho because I find it so time consuming, I've not gotten involved with it lately. But there's an aspect of this that really bugs me and makes me feel really dumb or thinking that since I'm now in my dotage, alzheimers is starting to set in. Nah, don't worry about that, it's not a symptom of Alzheimers unless you can see this post twice. Then you need to worry. Made me laugh so I can't be too far demented. I think the key is to not focus too much on 'visualizing.' Instead, just pick a song and play it on the table, or whatever. Move your fingers to approximately the right place. Focus more on imagining what it would sound like. Start with simple songs, and move up. If you're having trouble, it might be because you are looking at your hands when you are playing the piano? In that case, try not looking at your hands (maybe even try closing your eyes) when you play at the piano.
Last edited by phantomFive; 07/10/14 09:20 PM.
Poetry is rhythm
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Visualizing is not a tool for improving proprioception. It's mostly a memory aid - you're confusing chalk with cheese.
Laissez tomber les mains
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Visualizing is not a tool for improving proprioception. It's mostly a memory aid - you're confusing chalk with cheese. +1 You want to *not* look at your hands, except as necessary for long leaps. You want your visual system available to look at the sheet music.
-- J.S. Knabe Grand # 10927 Yamaha CP33 Kawai FS690
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Maybe its not the alzheimers after all. Instead I'm just a moron lol.
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Maybe its not the alzheimers after all. Instead I'm just a moron lol. Nah, you're a moron if you see this post three times. That's the symptom to look for.
Poetry is rhythm
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I'm trying something in the later stages of memorizing a piece. I first close my eyes. What I try to do next is visualize the fingers moving on the keyboard, like in keyboard memory away from the piano, but in this case I actually play the piece at the same time. I think it is helping quite a bit.
And hey, guys, thanks for your input.
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These things are different for everybody and memory and the stories people have of it is something I always find interesting. I am lousy at it myself. (Lousy: English word for very bad indeed) Reading through your original post though, I did wonder if perhaps you were trying to rely too much on mental visual perception which led you to miss the subliminal hints your body can give you through muscle memory? I think if you are trying to pick a note and just play it from your seated position at the piano you may find that much more difficult than playing a piece of music and being able to jump accurately from a bass arpeggio in say B Minor to a bass arpeggio in G Major. Put simply, are you practicing something you don't actually need?
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I'm trying something in the later stages of memorizing a piece. I first close my eyes. What I try to do next is visualize the fingers moving on the keyboard, like in keyboard memory away from the piano, but in this case I actually play the piece at the same time. I think it is helping quite a bit.
And hey, guys, thanks for your input. IMHO that's what everybody does - it's how memory works. It's just the vast majority aren't conscious of doing it.
Laissez tomber les mains
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These things are different for everybody and memory and the stories people have of it is something I always find interesting. I am lousy at it myself. (Lousy: English word for very bad indeed) Reading through your original post though, I did wonder if perhaps you were trying to rely too much on mental visual perception which led you to miss the subliminal hints your body can give you through muscle memory? I think if you are trying to pick a note and just play it from your seated position at the piano you may find that much more difficult than playing a piece of music and being able to jump accurately from a bass arpeggio in say B Minor to a bass arpeggio in G Major. Put simply, are you practicing something you don't actually need? I don't feel I've been relying too much on the mental visual perception. But what you say makes me feel I need to be careful of how I balance these memorization tools. BTW, I don't hear us use the word lousy over here much anymore. But I'm of british ancestry and it was used a lot in my family when I was a boy.
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Joined: Mar 2010
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I'm trying something in the later stages of memorizing a piece. I first close my eyes. What I try to do next is visualize the fingers moving on the keyboard, like in keyboard memory away from the piano, but in this case I actually play the piece at the same time. I think it is helping quite a bit.
And hey, guys, thanks for your input. IMHO that's what everybody does - it's how memory works. It's just the vast majority aren't conscious of doing it. From your name, it would seem you are really into Chopin. Since getting back into piano 4+ years ago, my mind has been opened up to a lot of music I just wasn't aware of in the areas of classical and ragtime. But it is with Chopin music that I have become most aware. How amazing! How could anyone be that intelligent in the day he lived, be ill most of the time, die at such an early age, and still come up with such a wealth of beautiful music. Then too, he advocated only 3 hours of practice per day. It would seem he was a great teacher as well. It boggles my mind.
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Joined: Mar 2010
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I'm trying something in the later stages of memorizing a piece. I first close my eyes. What I try to do next is visualize the fingers moving on the keyboard, like in keyboard memory away from the piano, but in this case I actually play the piece at the same time. I think it is helping quite a bit.
And hey, guys, thanks for your input. IMHO that's what everybody does - it's how memory works. It's just the vast majority aren't conscious of doing it. Since coming on this forum I get the impression that you folks in the UK may be well ahead of us here in the colonies in terms of musical prowess. Strangely, the rock idiom comes to mind of which I'm not that fond. But I felt the beatles (heaven forbid I should talk about rock here.) were masters of simplicity of creativity. Then there were tunes by the Dave Clark Five which I liked. But I believe I read somewhere that the beatles gave them much of their material.
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Joined: Mar 2010
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I'm trying something in the later stages of memorizing a piece. I first close my eyes. What I try to do next is visualize the fingers moving on the keyboard, like in keyboard memory away from the piano, but in this case I actually play the piece at the same time. I think it is helping quite a bit.
And hey, guys, thanks for your input. IMHO that's what everybody does - it's how memory works. It's just the vast majority aren't conscious of doing it. Thinking about what you say a little more, up to the point where I started to consciously get into keyboard memory, I don't think I was one of the "everybody" you mention. I don't know if I'll make myself clear here, but I can't accurately visualize in my mind the notes I'm playing for much of what I play. But I have to keep in mind that right from the get go 4+ years ago I started right in trying to play stuff way over my head. Basically, the only piano I had before that (I was into dixieland jazz clarinet for about 30 years) was 5 years of lessons 60 years ago and did not do much with it after that. The "way over my head" stuff includes Maple Leaf Rag and Bumble Boogie that I'd made progress with back 60 years ago and are much more polished now. But other material like Chopin op9 #2, Kitten on the Keys, and some other rags, Shearing arrangements, were entirely new. Then there was Chopin op27 #2 which I finally decided to just put aside. While an audience of unsophisticated people would probably be quite impressed with my playing, I know I still have a ways to go. Today, I'm going to go back thru Kitten on the Keys (considered quite difficult by most I know of and impossible by this local talented ragtime star who plays mostly by ear). It will be slow playing where I will try to apply keyboard memory, eyes closed, at the same time I'm playing the piece. To me this will add an extra element to the piece that I've never applied before. I anticipate it will be quite daunting but doable. Just in general, I'm finding that those passages where I'm most inclined to flub, are those where I need extra work to achieve keyboard memory. This is helping to tell me that keyboard memory will improve me a lot.
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More as an aside, I might also mention I've been heavily into applying the Alexander Technique. I was lucky to find a person who teaches this along with being an excellent pianist. While he's helped me a lot for the 9 months of monthly lessons I had with him, these are the only lessons I've had in these 4+ years. Right now I'm also trying to catch up with what he taught me.
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I think a good Alexander teacher is a better bet than a mediocre piano teacher. With Alexander you learn how to do everything!
Laissez tomber les mains
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A good (better than average) teacher is better than a mediocre teacher by definition.
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