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#2302828 - 07/15/14 11:08 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Bernhard Stopper]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: DoelKees

What I imagine is the following: In ET play intervals C#4F4 and F4A4. You hear them beat at different rates, so you connect the beat rates to the intervals and hear they are out of just. Now suppose C#4F4 and F4A4 are equal beating (as can happen in some WT's). We now hear the same beat rates so our brain thinks the beats are not a property of the interval, but some external noise which our brain filters out, and we don't think the M3's are out of just.

I have my doubts but it seems somewhat possible.

I miss your legendary crackpottery alarm detector for this "equal beating/canceling" theorem grin
Well I don't consider it crackpottery as it is comprehensible. I admit it is somewhat speculative, to make an understatement.
Originally Posted By: Bernhard Stopper
Originally Posted By: DoelKees

I don't know what "beat masking" is. Can you explain?

Kees

The effect of beat intensity reduction caused by ?summation? of beats with different rates.

So whenever you have unequal beats they mask each other? Or are there specific conditions for this masking to occur? Would you care to elaborate? (I have read everything you've written on the subject here in the past.)

Kees

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#2302829 - 07/15/14 11:13 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Gadzar]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
In fact, I'm fairly sure that it will move. That's why I use the P4 test.

With this test, the P4 window is so small, that you would be surprised how tiny a movement can be caught by it.

You are right though, it is a waste of time to tune a note with high accuracy if it is going to drift later on, unless of course your method is incredibly fast at getting that high accuracy. If so, why not?


I am not sure I follow you. You say you tune the piano in one single pass. And you also say that you are fairly sure that what you have just tuned is going to move while you continue to tune.

Doesn't that mean that it will end up out of tune?



Not after I correct it as I go.

Also, for reasons I do not know why, not all the notes drift, so the high accuracy is not always wasted.


So you do correct what you just tuned! Isn't it a sort of second pass? You are tuning each note twice!

And after correcting, nothing guarantees you that it won't move again as you continue tuning the rest of the notes.




Yes, it is a kind of second pass. If it drifts again, it doesn't drift as much since things are all settling down as we go along.

The real benefit is that, as I said, all notes don't drift as much, some don't need correcting, and not all drift for the same reason. So, using a high accuracy technique right from the beginning, if it's not to far out, and you can get a high accuracy fairly quickly, just keeps the focus, for me anyway.

BTW, I'm not trying to tell you to change how you're tuning, just sharing how I do it.

Keep the questions coming.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2302835 - 07/15/14 11:33 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Yes, it is a kind of second pass. If it drifts again, it doesn't drift as much since things are all settling down as we go along.

The real benefit is that, as I said, all notes don't drift as much, some don't need correcting, and not all drift for the same reason. So, using a high accuracy technique right from the beginning, if it's not to far out, and you can get a high accuracy fairly quickly, just keeps the focus, for me anyway.

BTW, I'm not trying to tell you to change how you're tuning, just sharing how I do it.

Keep the questions coming.


I guess I must see you in action to really understand how you do it.

Are you talking about the double string unison technique?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2302837 - 07/15/14 11:34 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: pyropaul]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Create two sine waves. One at 440 and one at 665. A horribly wide fifth. No beats. It's weird.



I tried this with audacity - both 665 and 661 plus 440. It sure sounds like beating to me as I can hear periodic variations in loudness. You definitely can have beats that are not due to partials near the same frequency - just do the summation of the two sines and you'll see periodic loudness variations in the 440+661 case.

[edit] just throw graph sin(4.4*pi*x)+sin(6.61*pi*x) and graph sin(4.4*pi*x)+sin(6.60*pi*x) into google, zoom out horizontally and you'll see the amplitude modulation in the 440+661Hz case.
Paul.


Make sure the volume is not too high. That will distort the sine wave and, in effect, produce partials.

I did the graph thing. Didn't see what you were talking about.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2302842 - 07/15/14 11:42 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hey Kees,

I get what your saying, but what about this:

Two beats are created that are identical in frequency and 180 degrees out of phase. They are positive pressure waves so they can never add up to zero anywhere.

BUT, they can add up to a constant! Isn't a constant pressure wave the same as no sound?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2302844 - 07/15/14 11:51 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Gadzar]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Yes, it is a kind of second pass. If it drifts again, it doesn't drift as much since things are all settling down as we go along.

The real benefit is that, as I said, all notes don't drift as much, some don't need correcting, and not all drift for the same reason. So, using a high accuracy technique right from the beginning, if it's not to far out, and you can get a high accuracy fairly quickly, just keeps the focus, for me anyway.

BTW, I'm not trying to tell you to change how you're tuning, just sharing how I do it.

Keep the questions coming.


I guess I must see you in action to really understand how you do it.

Are you talking about the double string unison technique?



Nope, but the whole thing comes together with it.

I've decided that the benefits of a particular technician's temperament sequence can not be understood completely, without knowing their stability method and their tuning method in general.

That is why I am refraining from being more specific with regards to my sequence or method. I am writing a book on it now and it will describe everything, including my highly accurate temperament sequence with windows for ET, the DSU method, and stability analysis for slow pull and impact, as well as philosophy of tuning.

I know it sounds arrogant, but I don't know any other way to explain it.

I'm still looking for proof readers. Let me know. You get a free copy and get to rake me over the coals.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2302847 - 07/16/14 12:18 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BrcWplvGJY it is claimed (around 38s) that the final chord (F2F4A4C5F5) shows beat masking of the M3.

Here's the final chord: final chord.

To me the 7bps of the F2F4A4 is very clear and not masked at all (what could it be masked by?), but of course I'm comparing it perhaps unfairly to how nice it sounds on my piano where it beats at 4bps.

I guess we'd have to hear the final chord on the same piano tuned not in Stopper tuning to really judge.

For comparison here http://persianney.com/misc/richter.mp3 is the same chord from a Richter performance which I grabbed from youtube.

To me the M3 is less offensive there, perhaps because the slow beat from the F3F4C5 masks it?

I think I like the Stopper tuning better, but just because the FC is better, not because of any beat masking.

Kees

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#2302854 - 07/16/14 01:46 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Hey Kees,
Two beats are created that are identical in frequency and 180 degrees out of phase. They are positive pressure waves so they can never add up to zero anywhere.

Beats are not pressure waves.

Kees

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#2302919 - 07/16/14 07:32 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Kees:

Thanks for your response and your patience! I am just not getting it. What about noise cancelling headsets? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise-cancelling_headphones

They work by cancelling a pressure wave with another pressure wave of opposite phase. But beats are not pressure waves.

Kees


OK, a periodic change in amplitude (beats) is not a periodic change in pressure (acoustic wave). So... if one acoustic wave can be cancelled by another why can't one beat be cancelled by another?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2302924 - 07/16/14 07:49 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3295
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I will see if I have some nice grands today to make a brief video.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2302926 - 07/16/14 07:51 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I did the graph thing. Didn't see what you were talking about.


Once the graph has been drawn for you, go to the zoom tool at the top left corner. Hover over the pop-out arrow on the right-hand side of the zoom tool. This pops out selectors for horizontal-only or vertical-only zooming. Select the horizontal-only mode. Then press on the "minus" a few times, to zoom out. Soon you will see a beat pattern emerging, after 7 or 8 zoom-outs. It repeats every 100 x-units.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2302943 - 07/16/14 08:31 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3295
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT

I've decided that the benefits of a particular technician's temperament sequence can not be understood completely, without knowing their stability method and their tuning method in general.

That is why I am refraining from being more specific with regards to my sequence or method. I am writing a book on it now and it will describe everything, including my highly accurate temperament sequence with windows for ET, the DSU method, and stability analysis for slow pull and impact, as well as philosophy of tuning.

I know it sounds arrogant, but I don't know any other way to explain it.

I'm still looking for proof readers. Let me know. You get a free copy and get to rake me over the coals.


Mark,

If you promote your way of doing things but don't have the same amount of experience with other ways and try to show and say that another way is inferior, all you are doing is showing that you don't have experience with the other way and therefore it doesn't work for you as well as your way.

Take for example the typical 4ths & 5ths sequence. I passed my exam using it. I know how to do it. But I have also seen so many people fail using that method that I came up with something else. Every time I promote the idea of using Contiguous Major Thirds as a foundation for ET, somebody tells me that they don't do that and still get perfect results.

So, instead of trying to say that you have the only and best solution, try looking for a way to say that if other methods have not worked, then try this.

When I see you say how you "only tune one time" but go back and correct strings which have drifted, I think immediately that you only "fight with it one time". You say that you still think it would take less time than trying to do it twice and maybe for you, it would but not for me. For me, the pitch correction phase of any tuning is very low stress and takes about 15 minutes to go through the entire piano. The fine tuning phase is then also very low stress because most of the strings are already in tune. It is then a matter of finding and stabilizing only the recalcitrant ones.

I would never try to fool myself into thinking I could go through any piano just one time and have it be in tune when I finish but that is because I wouldn't fight with it the way you and anyone else who can't imagine doing two passes do.

I hope in your book that you also don't repeat the same false information about how temperament suddenly swung from Meantone to ET one day when Bach wrote the Well Tempered Clavier music. If you don't know what you are talking about in that regard, I suggest you leave the history of temperament subject alone entirely.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2302953 - 07/16/14 09:11 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2180
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

If you promote your way of doing things but don't have the same amount of experience with other ways and try to show and say that another way is inferior, all you are doing is showing that you don't have experience with the other way and therefore it doesn't work for you as well as your way.

I agree. All through my aural tuning career I have tried (as time and intellect would allow) to explore other temperament setting schemes to see if they would allow me to get a better understanding of the process. I'm being deliberately brief, but it works!
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2302962 - 07/16/14 09:34 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT

I've decided that the benefits of a particular technician's temperament sequence can not be understood completely, without knowing their stability method and their tuning method in general.

That is why I am refraining from being more specific with regards to my sequence or method. I am writing a book on it now and it will describe everything, including my highly accurate temperament sequence with windows for ET, the DSU method, and stability analysis for slow pull and impact, as well as philosophy of tuning.

I know it sounds arrogant, but I don't know any other way to explain it.

I'm still looking for proof readers. Let me know. You get a free copy and get to rake me over the coals.


Mark,

If you promote your way of doing things but don't have the same amount of experience with other ways and try to show and say that another way is inferior, all you are doing is showing that you don't have experience with the other way and therefore it doesn't work for you as well as your way.

Take for example the typical 4ths & 5ths sequence. I passed my exam using it. I know how to do it. But I have also seen so many people fail using that method that I came up with something else. Every time I promote the idea of using Contiguous Major Thirds as a foundation for ET, somebody tells me that they don't do that and still get perfect results.

So, instead of trying to say that you have the only and best solution, try looking for a way to say that if other methods have not worked, then try this.

When I see you say how you "only tune one time" but go back and correct strings which have drifted, I think immediately that you only "fight with it one time". You say that you still think it would take less time than trying to do it twice and maybe for you, it would but not for me. For me, the pitch correction phase of any tuning is very low stress and takes about 15 minutes to go through the entire piano. The fine tuning phase is then also very low stress because most of the strings are already in tune. It is then a matter of finding and stabilizing only the recalcitrant ones.

I would never try to fool myself into thinking I could go through any piano just one time and have it be in tune when I finish but that is because I wouldn't fight with it the way you and anyone else who can't imagine doing two passes do.

I hope in your book that you also don't repeat the same false information about how temperament suddenly swung from Meantone to ET one day when Bach wrote the Well Tempered Clavier music. If you don't know what you are talking about in that regard, I suggest you leave the history of temperament subject alone entirely.


Does anyone else find Bill's post a bit in left field? I think I was clear that this is my way and works for me and I'm not trying to change anyone's method. Wasn't I? Please chime in here. I write and rewrite my posts many times to be clear that all I want to do is share, and not lecture.

Has anyone else had their words twisted and then thrown back at them as literal quotes that are wrong and make you look like an amateur? Isn't that fun?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2302963 - 07/16/14 09:56 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mark:

I find both your's and Bill's posts to be "a bit in left field." I barely skim over them and then wonder why I bother. There is something similar in your personalities that you are each blind to. I am sure some lack of insight exists in all of us. Otherwise we would be either utterly depraved or utterly depressed. In otherwords, don't show me mine, and I won't show you yours! laugh
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2302978 - 07/16/14 10:49 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1819
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Effective communication is 10% words; and that's provided both have a decent command of the same language. The other 90% is body language, voice inflection, and so on. Text forum is a formula for misunderstanding. We've all been on both the giving and the receiving end. I don't have answers. Even an extra effort to choose words more wisely will only help about half of the time. Which half? I haven't a clue. wink

That's my fractured axiom for the day. crazy
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2302980 - 07/16/14 10:50 AM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I think beats can be perceived from sounds with pure harmonics, or even without harmonics.

Then what we hear with earphones may relate more to the phase motions between speakers than the effect graphed above, or in any case it may modify the output if I am not wrong
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2303023 - 07/16/14 12:52 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
I appreciate all Bill Bremmer posts here in Piano World, because he always teaches me something I do not knew.

Contrary to what Mark Cerisano posts. Last one was a "what you do is a waste of time".
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2303044 - 07/16/14 01:44 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I don't understand Gadzar. I did not say doing two passes is a waste of time. I said sometimes using a correct as you go approach is faster. For me. Sometimes. For me.

Was I not clear?


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (07/16/14 01:51 PM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2303051 - 07/16/14 01:56 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I will apologize for some of my posts here. I agree that some of them appear self righteous but I did not intend for them to be. Forum writing is a skill I still need to learn.

I liked your post Jeff. Thanks, and I agree with you.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (07/16/14 01:59 PM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2303088 - 07/16/14 03:32 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3295
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Here are two short videos that show how equally beating intervals, when played together, tend to suppress the beating sound and reduce slightly the overall volume of sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiCDrkPzCnI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnwnA1dXkJM
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2303090 - 07/16/14 03:40 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I don't understand Gadzar. I did not say doing two passes is a waste of time. I said sometimes using a correct as you go approach is faster. For me. Sometimes. For me.

Was I not clear?




It is funny how you forget what you have just posted.


Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Mark,

If you are good at tempering proportional M3s, all you need is one note of a CM3s chain.

Here we tune

A4 to fork
A3 to A4, the octave size you like.
D4 to A3, as a pure fourth
G4 to D4, as a pure fourth
E4 to A4, as a pure fourth
B3 to E4, as a pure fourth
D#4 to B3/G4, as a...


But, tuning a pure interval in ET is a waste of time, because you will have to correct it later on.
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2303092 - 07/16/14 03:46 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: UnrightTooner]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Kees:

Thanks for your response and your patience! I am just not getting it. What about noise cancelling headsets? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise-cancelling_headphones

They work by cancelling a pressure wave with another pressure wave of opposite phase. But beats are not pressure waves.

Kees


OK, a periodic change in amplitude (beats) is not a periodic change in pressure (acoustic wave). So... if one acoustic wave can be cancelled by another why can't one beat be cancelled by another?

Because amplitude (or rather, energy) is positive, and two positive numbers can't add up to zero.

Or try to visualize two sine wave at say 440 Hz and another at 660 Hz. Now visualize oscillating the amplitude of both waves at 1 oscillation per second (not necessarity synchronous) and put the result together. How can you possibly end up with two original sine waves again?

Kees
PS On the other hand, if you had two acoustic waves of 1Hz you can shift one by 1/2 a period, add them up and end up with a flat line.


Edited by DoelKees (07/16/14 03:50 PM)

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#2303095 - 07/16/14 04:01 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Wow Bill, in the second video when you play CE then GE I clearly hear the beats, then when you play the triad GCE it sounds smooth, harmonious, the beats just disappear! thumb


Edited by Gadzar (07/16/14 04:04 PM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#2303107 - 07/16/14 04:44 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Gadzar]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3295
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Wow Bill, in the second video when you play CE then GE I clearly hear the beats, then when you play the triad GCE it sounds smooth, harmonious, the beats just disappear! thumb


Yes, that is what I hear too. The first second or so, I hear the rapid beat but then it gets "swallowed". In the Slowly Beating Interval samples, in this and every time I do it, I hear what sounds to me like a beat "trying" to happen but it can't.

Now to me, that always meant that one beat was "canceling" the other. If the scientists say that because beats are always "positive" (whatever that means) and therefore two or more positives cannot amount to a zero or anything close to that, OK, fine by me. It is not beat cancellation. Is it therefore, beat interference that mimics cancellation?

Whatever the reason is for the effect, I have known about it for some 30 years and I keep discovering more ways to put it to use. I will call it whatever somebody finally determines the right word is. What I certainly do not hear is a "doubling" of beats or a louder sound.

What I learned how to do, I learned by actually listening to the piano and not listening to what other technicians say and certainly not what scientists who theorize about everything say but who never actually tuned a piano.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2303119 - 07/16/14 05:31 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Here are two short videos that show how equally beating intervals, when played together, tend to suppress the beating sound and reduce slightly the overall volume of sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiCDrkPzCnI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnwnA1dXkJM

It sound nice, but I hear nothing unusual that I can attribute to equal beatings.

To demonstrate the effect of equal beating we'd have to hear that with equal beating it sounds better than without equal beating.

If I am not mistaken in EBVT3 F4A4 and G4B4 have comparable beat rates, C3A4 and F4A4 are not equal beating, but D3G4 and G4B4 are equal beating.

So C3F4A4 should sound less quiet than D3G4B4.

Can you demonstrate that?

Kees

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#2303145 - 07/16/14 07:25 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3295
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Here are two short videos that show how equally beating intervals, when played together, tend to suppress the beating sound and reduce slightly the overall volume of sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiCDrkPzCnI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnwnA1dXkJM

It sound nice, but I hear nothing unusual that I can attribute to equal beatings.

To demonstrate the effect of equal beating we'd have to hear that with equal beating it sounds better than without equal beating.

If I am not mistaken in EBVT3 F4A4 and G4B4 have comparable beat rates, C3A4 and F4A4 are not equal beating, but D3G4 and G4B4 are equal beating.

So C3F4A4 should sound less quiet than D3G4B4.

Can you demonstrate that?

Kees


Doel, nothing sounds better than a pure 4th or 5th. In the 3rd octave, the F3-A3 and G3-B3 M3's beat at the same rate by design but the key of F and the key of G still have distinctly different characters. That is because the key of F has a pure fifth but the key of G has a fifth that is tempered about 1.5 as much as in ET.

So, I don't know if a triad with a pure fifth sounds "quieter" than the same triad as it would be tuned in ET but expect it would. You, of all people should know about this kind of thing. The ET only crowd is focused only on equality as the goal of perfection but people like you and me have long known of other characteristics that are far more desirable than having every key signature sound alike.

When you get to the point on the scale of F4-A4, you are at or near the limit of discernibility of beating in an M3. You want me to prove that a C4-F4-A4 triad sounds "louder" than a C4-G4-B4 triad? Sorry, I don't have the time. I know they won't sound the same in the EBVT but I will leave it at that.

I have to admit that what I wrote that I thought would support your topic, equally beating intervals and the value that there is in them, has now drifted off topic. The value that I know is there and have known is there for more than 30 years is now being undermined with "research" that says there is no such value at all.

As usual, it is only theoretical: it wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried. Why bother when it is only in your imagination and nobody can hear the difference anyway? Why not just tune ET like everybody else? Why not do it MY way?

I guess we all have our theories and our own experiences. We all have our own product to sell. We all do what we do because it works for us. We all get testimonials from our clients.

I'll say it again just to make it very clear. I am not a scientist, nor a mathematician nor a physicist or anything else that may apply. My education has been in music and foreign languages. I started tuning pianos at the age of 17 and I did it by listening to the piano. I still do that. I know what it is that I hear. It has often been very difficult to put into words what I do but there, I do have some skill.

I respond, not to what other technicians may say who know nothing really about what I do, only what they perceive through their own bias; I respond to what my clients say. I also respond to what other technicians say who have tried my techniques and found the results to be to their liking. Any other methods and theories by other technicians find similar gratification.

I found your idea to be fascinating. I certainly remember how you also found an equally beating way to arrive at 6 beats per second for the F3-A3 M3 that is called for in the EBVT. It was great thinking, even if it isn't a very practical way to do it. It was, however an example of the power and potential of equally beating intervals.

Now, I am confronted with someone who says that equally beating intervals are worse, not better. They are louder, not softer when played together. Beats cannot "cancel" each other so the result of equally beating intervals can only be worse, not better than non-equally beating intervals. Chords with equally beating intervals would be twice as loud!

It is simply not true and musicians and tuners from past centuries knew that for a much longer time than any people who think that complete eradication of tonality is the ultimate goal. I will continue doing what I do, knowing that it produces the most musical satisfaction for the most people. I know what I hear when I tune and no theorist or researcher can tell me that it is only in my imagination.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2303149 - 07/16/14 07:45 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Gadzar]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1421
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
I don't understand Gadzar. I did not say doing two passes is a waste of time. I said sometimes using a correct as you go approach is faster. For me. Sometimes. For me.

Was I not clear?




It is funny how you forget what you have just posted.


Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
Mark,

If you are good at tempering proportional M3s, all you need is one note of a CM3s chain.

Here we tune

A4 to fork
A3 to A4, the octave size you like.
D4 to A3, as a pure fourth
G4 to D4, as a pure fourth
E4 to A4, as a pure fourth
B3 to E4, as a pure fourth
D#4 to B3/G4, as a...


But, tuning a pure interval in ET is a waste of time, because you will have to correct it later on.




Sorry, I thought you were referring to the double vs single correct-as-you-go pass.

Re: using pure intervals to tune ET, that was arrogant of me to say it is a waste of time. I apologize. What I meant to say was, I have a sequence that tunes proper ET size intervals right away. It is like CM3, except for all the notes of the temperament. I'll post it when I have figured out an efficient and concise way to present it.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2303152 - 07/16/14 07:47 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1761
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
When you get to the point on the scale of F4-A4, you are at or near the limit of discernibility of beating in an M3. You want me to prove that a C4-F4-A4 triad sounds "louder" than a C4-G4-B4 triad? Sorry, I don't have the time. I know they won't sound the same in the EBVT but I will leave it at that.

I really don't want you do anything in particular.

I just have never seen anything that support the advantage of equal beating except to make it easier to tune something by ear.
I don't believe there is any (dis)advantage to equal beating until I see evidence otherwise. Claiming you can demonstrate otherwise but "don't have the time" to show it does not make a very good case for it IMHO.

Kees

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#2303162 - 07/16/14 08:36 PM Re: Theoretical tuning sequence [Re: DoelKees]
Gadzar Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1910
Loc: Mexico City
Am I alone in hearing those beats in CE and GE and no beats at all in GCE?
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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