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#2302627 - 07/15/14 03:22 PM Is the new crop better than the old???
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 516
Loc: canada
Gizzer issue: I still like Rubinstein, Richter, Gilels, Horowitz, Feinberg, Barenboim?, et. al. better than the modern WIZ KIDS.... (Lang Lang, Yuja Wang, Angela Hewitt, etc., etc... make your own list!!)

I'm not even sure the modern technique is any better than what Richter or Art Tatum, for that matter, could manage. And I'm not even getting to the issue of interpretive or "aesthetic" sensibilities.

Am I missing something????

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#2302645 - 07/15/14 04:14 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1487
Loc: California
In terms of technique......

The only aspect where modern technique (and not just piano) is superior to the old guys is precision. As one example, if you compare Yuja Wang to Cziffra playing his own composition (flight of the bumblebee), she plays it more precisely, but with less power.

I'm not sure if this is a result of pianists listening to their own recordings, or because of piano competitions, or what. If you look at historical accounts, it seems to be even moreso. Clara Schumann for example was noted to be somewhat uneven in her playing.....but only compared to newer pianists.

And Lang Lang is an anachronism here.....out to prove that not all modern pianists play mor precisely.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2302649 - 07/15/14 04:18 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5258
I'm a Luddite (I bought my first computer last year, and have never owned a cell phone - and don't intend ever to), but almost all my current listening is to the 'younger' generation of pianists - from not-so-young like Pletnev, Zimerman and Matsuev, to the really young like Grosvenor, Trifonov and Lisiecki.

The only Rubinstein CD I downloaded into my laptop was 'The Last Recital for Israel', but I've since deleted it - once my fascination with his daredevil playing (so refreshingly different from the rather careful playing on his commercial stereo recordings) passed, I became all too aware of his technical problems and numerous infelicities. Richter, Horowitz, Ogdon and Koczalski are the only deceased pianists that I still listen to regularly.

BTW, I find Tatum really boring now - again, after a short period of initial admiration. Once you've heard one of his RH runs, you've heard them all.....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2302655 - 07/15/14 04:29 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
the nosy ape Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 715
Loc: Westford, MA
I find it strange that you would classify Angela Hewitt as a WIZ KID. She is closer in age to Murray Perahia and Emmanuel Ax than she is to Lang Lang or Yuja Wang. In any event, all of these pianists had/have their strengths and weaknesses and it could be that your taste in music favors the ones that you mention. I prefer Hewitt's Bach to all the others except, perhaps, Gilels; but then I can still see her play in person.

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#2302663 - 07/15/14 04:41 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: bennevis]
RealPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2340
Loc: NYC
Originally Posted By: bennevis
BTW, I find Tatum really boring now - again, after a short period of initial admiration. Once you've heard one of his RH runs, you've heard them all.....
You make a good point, but I never get tired of his command of accent.
_________________________
Joe

www.josephkubera.com

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#2302670 - 07/15/14 04:50 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: the nosy ape]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 516
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: the nosy ape
I find it strange that you would classify Angela Hewitt as a WIZ KID. She is closer in age to Murray Perahia and Emmanuel Ax than she is to Lang Lang or Yuja Wang. In any event, all of these pianists had/have their strengths and weaknesses and it could be that your taste in music favors the ones that you mention. I prefer Hewitt's Bach to all the others except, perhaps, Gilels; but then I can still see her play in person.


I hesitated with "Hewitt" classification. A taxonomy issue for sure. I think of her Bach (which I don't understand or appreciate for that matter, and I've heard her do the 48 live in Toronto) as being somewhat "old-fashioned."

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#2302672 - 07/15/14 04:55 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: RealPlayer]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 516
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: RealPlayer
Originally Posted By: bennevis
BTW, I find Tatum really boring now - again, after a short period of initial admiration. Once you've heard one of his RH runs, you've heard them all.....
You make a good point, but I never get tired of his command of accent.


He's not a classical pianist. But worthy of mention, nonetheless, for obvious reasons.

I can relate to the "been-there-done-that" feeling about him. But as a fool-around but advanced pianist myself, I can ..... what is the apt wording "totally respect" the technical prowess!!!

I'm not sure Richter or Hamelin's octave-playing in Brahms 2 is any more stupendous than what I THINK I'm hearing on my 21-year-old daughter's Tatum albums.

I respectfully leave it at that!!!

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#2302681 - 07/15/14 05:09 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
fnork Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1792
Loc: Helsinki, Finland

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#2302684 - 07/15/14 05:15 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: fnork]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 516
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: fnork


You've anticipated me.....

Heck! (Can we use that word on the internet?)

Sandor is right (I think) the word "technique" (heck, the CONCEPT too) is really impossible to separate or even distinguish from the word/concept??? "art".

So I'm inclined to think. Hanon is useful if played "with feeling."

Or words to that effect.

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#2302685 - 07/15/14 05:16 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
The technique of contemporary pianists is absolutely superior to those of the past.

It's silly and ignorant to believe otherwise.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2302686 - 07/15/14 05:17 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: RealPlayer]
beet31425 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3809
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: RealPlayer
Originally Posted By: bennevis
BTW, I find Tatum really boring now - again, after a short period of initial admiration. Once you've heard one of his RH runs, you've heard them all.....
You make a good point, but I never get tired of his command of accent.


And I never get tired of his tiny subtle harmonic twists, or his sense of rhythm.

The RH runs are impressive at first, then they just become basic words in his vocabulary. At that point, other things become even more impressive.

-J
_________________________
Schubert: Bb Impromptu D.935/3; Mozart: D minor concerto; Chopin: first Ballade

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#2302692 - 07/15/14 05:24 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: Atrys]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1487
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Atrys
The technique of contemporary pianists is absolutely superior to those of the past.

It's silly and ignorant to believe otherwise.

Please, give examples.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2302695 - 07/15/14 05:31 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: phantomFive]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: phantomFive

Please, give examples.

I won't give specific examples because poorly read fools will try to make a case for outdated talents, but certain names of contemporary pianists should find there way to you with ease.

I really do mean that only a fool would think that pianistic skill is not rising with time, in the same way that every other form of skill rises to more elite levels over generations (Olympic and general athleticism, mathematical and scientific methods and techniques, etc.); piano is no different and contemporary pianists play circles around their dead heroes.


Edited by Atrys (07/15/14 05:32 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2302701 - 07/15/14 05:41 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 848
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
“I have great faith in fools - self-confidence my friends will call it.”
-- Edgar Allan Poe


Edited by Vid (07/15/14 05:42 PM)
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2302702 - 07/15/14 05:43 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: Vid]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Vid
“I have great faith in fools - self-confidence my friends will call it.”
-- Edgar Allan Poe

"I have to use silly, illogical, opinionated quotations from others because I cannot communicate my own ideas well." - Vid
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2302709 - 07/15/14 05:59 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4820
Loc: USA
Technique getting better over time is an illusion caused by the obsession of note accuracy. They are not the same thing.

If you believe what you say, show us some examples. Compare the best of both eras and make a case.

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#2302712 - 07/15/14 06:03 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: JoelW]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Technique getting better over time is an illusion caused by the obsession of note accuracy. They are not the same thing.

Your thinking that the increase in technical facility is an illusion is a delusion.

The idea that outdated talents are superior to the virtuosity seen today is a hopeless romantic plea; it's obviously not true and very often an appeal to "romantic or pedagogical authority".


Edited by Atrys (07/15/14 06:03 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2302715 - 07/15/14 06:07 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4820
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Your thinking that the increase in technical facility is an illusion is a delusion.

No, it's not. In fact, you're the deluded one. Your assertions are hilariously wrong. Do you even know the old pianists?

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#2302716 - 07/15/14 06:09 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: Atrys]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 848
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Vid
“I have great faith in fools - self-confidence my friends will call it.”
-- Edgar Allan Poe

"I have to use silly, illogical, opinionated quotations from others because I cannot communicate my own ideas well." - Vid


Okay, by quoting Poe I may be guilty of not contributing much to the OP. It was meant as a counter to Artys' standard snarky tone where he likes to refer to people with opposing viewpoints as 'fools'.

As for him attributing a quote to me such as this at what point does this become a personal attack? I'm getting tired of the nasty tone that has token over this forum.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2302718 - 07/15/14 06:09 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: JoelW]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1487
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Technique getting better over time is an illusion caused by the obsession of note accuracy. They are not the same thing.

If you believe what you say, show us some examples. Compare the best of both eras and make a case.

I would claim that 'note accuracy' is one aspect of technique.

Other than that, I can't think of any aspect of piano technique now that has improved over the previous generation (if someone has examples, I would be interested in seeing them).

In other words I think we agree, but are using different words to say them.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2302719 - 07/15/14 06:10 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: phantomFive]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4820
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I would claim that 'note accuracy' is one aspect of technique.

Only if the music isn't being compromised to achieve it, which 99% of today's pianists do.

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#2302720 - 07/15/14 06:12 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: Vid]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Vid
It was meant as a counter to Artys' standard snarky tone where he likes to refer to people with opposing viewpoints as 'fools'.

This is pretty obvious kiddo, but your understanding here is skewed.

People that hold views in opposition to mine are not "fools"; people that hold foolish views are fools.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2302721 - 07/15/14 06:13 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: Atrys]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4820
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Vid
It was meant as a counter to Artys' standard snarky tone where he likes to refer to people with opposing viewpoints as 'fools'.

This is pretty obvious kiddo, (...)

You sound like such an idiot when you say this to people who are likely twice+ your age. Show some respect.

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#2302722 - 07/15/14 06:14 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: phantomFive]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
I can't think of any aspect of piano technique now that has improved over the previous generation

This is simply because piano play is a finite system, and the breadth and depth of the system has been explored enough to almost be exhaustive. The only things that remain are perhaps the things most difficult for the human being: all the right notes at just the right time, and things like this.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2302724 - 07/15/14 06:14 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: JoelW]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: JoelW

You sound like such an idiot when you say this to people who are likely twice+ your age. Show some respect.

You mad bro? Show some respect, kiddo.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2302725 - 07/15/14 06:18 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: SoCal
Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant
Gizzer issue: I still like Rubinstein, Richter, Gilels, Horowitz, Feinberg, Barenboim?,


Shoot, I thought they were the new crop.

_________________________
Gary

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#2302730 - 07/15/14 06:25 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: bennevis]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 686
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By: bennevis

BTW, I find Tatum really boring now - again, after a short period of initial admiration. Once you've heard one of his RH runs, you've heard them all.....


Definitely–not everyone likes everything and all music. That's part of what makes all of this fun and gives us the variety we want. Some like this and some like that.

That said, there's a much richer and rewarding experience to be had with Art Tatum than the surface texture of fast runs. For anyone who's interested here's a great book about Tatums's right hand and what makes it special and unusual. And it's not his technical ability–although that's part of the equation. No way around it.

Tatum wasn't a bebop player. But his approach to harmony was a serious influence on Charlie Parker. That's been documented. Here's a pretty good article from the NY Times about Tatum where that's described: Why A Virtuoso Pianist Still Provokes Debate.

Another amazing part of Tatum's art was his rhythmic virtuosity. Those runs were essential to it.

Here's another article from the NY Times where the great jazz pianist Hank Jones explains the musical role of fast arpeggios and figures in Tatum's style. Hank Jones talks in the article about how those runs express harmony. From what HJ says anyone who knows John Coltrane's music may wonder if they were an influence upon him as well.

Tatum may be an acquired taste–no doubt about it. But so is a lot of great music. Sometimes with great music the rewards can be even greater when we go to it. Rather than hoping it'll come to us.

And there is a lot of great music, jazz and classical and everything else, where the surface textures can sound totally the same–to an uninitiated listener. But with experience and some understanding the worlds of those musics open up themselves up. It's not an uncommon experience for musicians to hear something and not like it. And then come back to it later–sometimes years later–and wonder how they missed it in the first place!

I hope no one'll read any of this as argument that Art Tatum is great and everyone should love him. His music may be be great. But if you you don't like it, for whatever reason, that's absolutely fine. Because there's a lot of other great music out there to be played and heard! But, on the other hand, put in the extra effort with Tatum and the rewards are there. But that's a choice of course.

Just in case anyone wants to see what Tatum's music looks like on the page I googled "Tatum transcription" and was amazed to find a Vol. 1 and a Vol. 2 of Tatum transcriptions that someone's photocopied and put on the web. Probably not legal at all but, for better or worse, there they are.

Download either or both books and take a look. It's not just the right-hand runs that'll stand out. There's his rhythmic virtuosity, his amazing sense of harmony, the left-hand stride figures with tenths, the inner lines. His voice leading is impeccable. And with everything that's going on there's nothing wasted. You can see that in the transcriptions. If you like his music you can hear that in the recordings. Well. My opinion! But, again, for anyone who doesn't like it. Well, that's fine. It's only music! And Tatum's legacy is contested by many. One of the NY Times articles I linked to above says as much. But it also points out that Horowitz, Rachmaninoff, and others were among the great pianists who used to go hear him play.

Hope the transcriptions are fun and that'll someone'll take a try at playing some of the them.

I couldn't help myself ... here's Tatum playing Jerome Kern's Yesterdays. Jazz pianists who play this tune still quote bits and pieces of it from Tatum.



Edited by Mark Polishook (07/15/14 06:30 PM)

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#2302743 - 07/15/14 07:31 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: Atrys]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 516
Loc: canada
Originally Posted By: Atrys
The technique of contemporary pianists is absolutely superior to those of the past.

It's silly and ignorant to believe otherwise.


A bold proposition, but is it true?

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#2302744 - 07/15/14 07:35 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4820
Loc: USA
Tatum was a better musician than every single one of today's Classical music regurgitators.

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#2302745 - 07/15/14 07:42 PM Re: Is the new crop better than the old??? [Re: johnlewisgrant]
johnlewisgrant Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 516
Loc: canada
Re Tatum's RH facility: at first I was astounded, then bored, but then astounded again, and still, to this day: astounded

A crude analogy: at 6 I thought Bach was boring (which to my 6-year-old brain meant "repetitive"). ut at 12 I heard the Brandenburg Concerti (courtesy of a music course my mother happened to be taking at UofToronto under "Dr. Ouchterlony" back in the day).

Then onto the Well-tempered, the choral music.... I was hooked.

Repeated exposure sharpens the ear and the mind.


Edited by johnlewisgrant (07/15/14 07:43 PM)

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