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#2303766 - 07/18/14 04:01 PM Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money?
Sam4 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Hi Guys
I know this is probably a daft question. As I've said in my other topics, I'm considering a new grand piano and I took a sonter by Edinburgh Piano Company, I tried their Weinbach 192 in Beautiful Rosewood polished finish. At 192cm, I expected it to be bigger and fuller sounding than the 170cm Weinbach I tried, but I was abit disappointed, it didn't sound as good to me, although it could just need a tune and a service as it's been sitting there for awhile it's about 10 years old or so and hasn't been sold so technically it's new, £13,500.

However when I tried the Schimmel Konzert 187cm Grand. It sounded very sharp with a well-pronounced bass, but kinda lacked a little warmh and creamyiness compared to the smaller Weinbach, even though the Weinbach was cheaper.

The Schimml was also in Black ebony so it wasn't as lovely as the rosewood, and I love that colour a lot more.

The Schimmel is 4-5 years old at £18,000 I think it was.

I suppose the Schimmel is probably the better instrument, although it's shorter than the Weinbach. It sounded better even though the Weinbach was great the when I played it first.

I could run to both pianos even though the Schimmel is dearer, but what does anyone else reckon, I don't know if because I played so many I couldn't do a proper comparison between them all.

I don't know which one to go for, what one is the better piano, I love the look of the Weinbach even though that's not the main thing to looks for, but the Schimmel sounded sharper when I was there. I dunno I might need to go back when the Weinbach is properly jazzed up. However which one would everyone recommend , even though the Schimmel is shorter is it better, once it's played abit, should it develop the warm tone of the European Weinbach or can it be voiced that way?

The smaller Weinbach 170 I was on about is in my local tuner Jamie's shop and it was lovely and warm sounding, although not as good in the treble, the 192 Weinbach sounded worse although as I say that could just be where it is and how it was set-up, it does need going over so maybe my trip wasn't a fair enough comparison and I need to ask for it to be serviced first. I was seriously considering the smaller Weinbach at £10,500 but hated it's dull casework, but after playing the Schimmel, if I'm spending that sorta money, that might make better buying sense as it's probably higher-quality, if only it could be toned down just a tadge in it's sharpness and given a little warmer sound, don't know if you can do such a thing or if once it's played and run in remember it's only 4-5 years old, it might start to sound wonderful.

Cheers if anyone can make any recommendations.


Edited by Sam4 (07/18/14 04:39 PM)

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#2303774 - 07/18/14 04:40 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1515
Loc: California
Unless you are in a hurry, I would wait a while to see what comes up. No need to rush into a £13,500 purchase.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2303778 - 07/18/14 04:51 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: phantomFive]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
No I'm not in any desperate hurry, I've gotta get things sorted first, I'm payin this up as I'm only 26 and a student. I just asked about what I looked at yesterday. Ye never know, I might find something selse come crunch time, but is Schimmel better than Weinbach? I'd presume it is given it's German'y volume piano maker, and I've seen some good reports of the newer Konzert range, I did try the 20 year old Schimmel 205, beautiful casework, ugly inards, not a bad sound but didn't get me too excited. I will be hanging about for a bit until I can arrange things with my folks as to what we're gonna do.

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#2303783 - 07/18/14 05:18 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
I don't know Weinbach so I cannot say anything about them. I do know Schimmel is good, the Konzert range is very good, HOWEVER, there is nor was a Schimmel Konzert 187. There is a 189.
Schimmel has a particular sound that you love or don't.
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2303792 - 07/18/14 05:43 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: wimpiano]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Ah right, so really if you don't like it's lack of softness in places, you can't really do much about it? Well here's the Schimmel I was on about. http://www.edinburghpianocompany.co.uk/pianos/grand-pianos/schimmel-187-konzert-grand/

I dunno if maybe they've got that size wrong or not, it is a few years old so maybe there was that size then I dunno.

Have a peak at the other pianos there, Weinbach, if your unfamiliar are a sub brand of the Czech maker Petrof, their cheaper more bre essentials brand, but still the little 170 had a fantastic warm tone, abit strange in the treble but that should ease out as it's played, both Weinbach's are now 10 years old so the Schimmel is younger.

I dunno what to do, I might go for the Schimmel if it'll serve me better, but I hate comparing pianos as you find one you like the tone of here, and another you like the tone of there, but not one you like the sound of all over the keyboard, so it's a trade-off really. Weinbach's havn't been imported to Britain for quite awhile so I need to decide between these 3, I do like the Schimmel and so does my mum, and she's making the decision on looks so I'm kinda stimeyed here as I have to get the looks right aswell. I'm just not sure if the sharp overly pronounced sound of the petrof will get on my case as the years go by if I'm playing more relaxed balady type songs where the Weinbachs lovely soft warm tone really goes well, I don't in case your wondering play any classical stuff mostly rock n Roll, Elvis, Elton John, Disney, all sorts a stuff, I know not your average piano habbits but that's just me, I also play fairly hard at times if I'm doin rock n' Roll stuff.

If by the way your interested have a swatch at my youtube channel, It's Samthebam4044.

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#2303878 - 07/18/14 10:57 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1515
Loc: California
I wouldn't buy the piano with the hope that it could be 'changed' to what you like. The best option is to buy the one you like the first time.

From your post, it doesn't seem like either piano is really grabbing you. That's why I suggest looking out for some more pianos, see what you can find. There is one out there that you'll really like.
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2303938 - 07/19/14 05:39 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Tweedpipe Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/16/08
Posts: 431
To answer your first question, yes I would say that particular Schimmel is a good buy - if in as-new condition. However knowing how I love to bargain, I would try for an even slightly lower price. Or at the indicated price, negotiate for preparation/voicing according to your preference, plus two post-purchase tunings.
You appear somewhat confused by your search so far. Take a notebook, and scribble down appreciation notes on touch, sound, sustain, details of the overall build quality etc.
Buying a piano should be an exciting and very rewarding experience, especially one in your proposed price range.

When you finally play a piano that you love, and cannot be without, you'll know it's for you. As I well recall, it's almost a spiritual experience, and there will be no doubt in your mind that you've found the right one. Obviously that has yet to happen, so keep looking.
It is highly likely that if you have doubts on a given instrument prior to purchase, you will experience buyers remorse a short time afterwards.
Good luck on your continued search.
_________________________
Dear Noah,
We could have sworn you said the ark wasn't leaving till 5.
Yours sincerely,
The Unicorns



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#2303960 - 07/19/14 08:59 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
I agree with Tweedpipe.
What you said about softness, I wouldn't necessarily call it softness. It's more the tone is brighter, you can play it very soft though. If you are looking for a mellow sound don't buy a Schimmel, they're great, really really good, but not mellow.
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2303965 - 07/19/14 09:07 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1247
Schimmel has a better reputation than weinbach, but it sounds like you don't like the piano.

I would choose Yamaha over both schimmel and weinbach, but that's me.

What are you looking for in a piano?

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#2303972 - 07/19/14 09:24 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
Yamaha is even brighter (thought their latest pianos seem a little less bright If I am not mistaken?).
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2304013 - 07/19/14 01:08 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: wimpiano]
phantomFive Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1515
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: wimpiano
Yamaha is even brighter (thought their latest pianos seem a little less bright If I am not mistaken?).

I don't know if I would say "less bright," although I'm sure it can be voiced down; the way I would describe it is "richer tone."
_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

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#2304048 - 07/19/14 02:35 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Hi Joe
I didn't say I didn't like it, as I do play some ragtime when I do The Bare Necessities I like some crispness and power, but I also like warmth and abit of softness to go with it. Obviously you can't really have both in the one piano, the Schimmel sounded pretty damn good to me but it lacked the creamy warm sound of the weinbach 170, then again the 170 didn't have as nice treble.

What I should have done (and what I will do next time I'm in) is take the camera with me and record me playing my usual repertoire of tunes on each pianop, and then playing them back later on, y'see you try so many it's very difficult to keep track of what you liked and didn't.

If the Schimmel would last longer and serve me better as a better quality piano, I'm sure I'd get along just fine with it, as I said before you can get used to the sound of a piano once you sit down with it and play it for many years, but I know what your saying I kinda need to get this right but I don't really know what sorta sound I'd be happy with , I like one piano here and another up there y'know what I mean? It's hard to know exactly what you could live with and what would start to get on your nut after awhile.

I'll be paying another visit tot the showroom soon, I don't think I could go far wrong with any of these really, I tried a very mellow Bluthner in Jamie's the other week, didn'y like it at all, but I do like the warmer mellowness of an the older pianos I've had over the years, but not too much.

What I'd really like is the some of the sharpness and power of the bass in the Schimmel, but retaining the warm creaminess of the weinbach, don't know if you can get such a thing but the Schimmel might mellow up once it's played in remember what I said earlier, it's only 4-5 years old so technically it's still basically new and I don't reckon it's been played much from what James told me, so I could be judjing it unfairly from that viewpoint. As I say maybe once I get it in the house (that's another thing aswell how different it'll sound in different places, the big bold showroom with it's tiled floor doesn't give you an accurate indication of what a piano will sound like in your house), the Schimmel will sound wonderfull either way I'd get used to a piano eventually, I've got used to my Newman and I mean I hated that at first you've no idea, so this could be a great buy if I can get a good deal on it, my mum approves of it and that's half the battle.

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#2304055 - 07/19/14 03:01 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3612
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Sam4
the Schimmel might mellow up once it's played in remember what I said earlier, it's only 4-5 years old


Pianos don't start mellowing just because you play them in - in fact, it's likely to get even brighter because you will compact the felt on the hammers and make them harder than they are today. People get voicing work done to decompress the hammer felt after it's been played a lot to make it more mellow.

Honestly, it seems you are not really wanting to buy this Schimmel - it's not a heart-decision, it's a head decision - and a head that is not totally across all the facts at this stage. IMO, you need a lot more time to work through this. You seem anxious to wrap it up but in doing so, you will not think things through and you are likely to make a rash purchase that you regret later. What's the hurry? Relax and do this properly. Put your plan to record all the pianos you play into action. Make a considered decision. Best of luck.

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#2304066 - 07/19/14 03:26 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1625
Loc: Toronto
I agree with Ando.

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#2304067 - 07/19/14 03:28 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: ando]
Sam4 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
No your right I am rushing this bit but y'see I'm the type a guy who can hardly make a decision about what to go for, now that's not a great quality to have in this situation is it?

I would keep going "oh hang on I like this and then go pley the others and say, ah but hang on I like the sound of this up the top but not at the bottom, or whatever something's gonna be not completely to my liking, but given that James has many thousands of pianos in the warehouse, it'd be impractical to try em' all and even then you'd find differences in each one all of which would annoy you in their own way.

So, yes I can see what your on about it' a big decision, but I'd quite like to get rid of my baby grand in the next few months, so I'd like to choose something and have done with it, as I said I'd get used to the sound of most of the pianos I've tried, yes you'd like to have made the best possible choice but you have to pick something that might not be totally the muts nuts in every area, but it get's it right in most places, and in my price range that looks as if that's how it's gonna be, remember I'm paying this up so my choices could be only a few dozen.

I'm gonna try the Weinbach 170 again as that did get me at first bar the treble but as Jamie says it will get better as it's played as it is very new and hasn't been played before, and it has the softness , maybe a little lack of power but as I say I'm gonna take the camera and keep looking about, as you all mention I'm bound to find something I love.

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#2304075 - 07/19/14 03:39 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1625
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Sam4
I like some crispness and power, but I also like warmth and abit of softness to go with it. Obviously you can't really have both in the one piano,


Yes you most certainly can. This description is what DEFINES many of the best pianos. Shigeru Kawai, Steinway, Fazioli, Mason and Hamlin, Grotrian and yes Shimmel, are brands that are able to accomplish this.
It's largely dependent on the technical control of the pianist. Try playing the Shimmel again with the intention of producing a warm a gentle sound and then a 'crisp and powerful' sounds. You might be surprised at the sound your fingers produce.
Ever wonder why you see such varied descriptions of the sound of various piano brands here? It has a lot to do with the technical approach/ability of the pianist doing the describing. For instance, I've heard a lot of amateur/intermediate level pianists say they don't like the Fazioli sound because it lacks depth and seems one dimensional. Have you heard Herbie Hancock or Angela Hewitt play a Fazioli? Strange that the instrument sounds tonally rich and varied when THEY play it.

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#2304089 - 07/19/14 04:07 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: AJF]
Sam4 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
That's a bloody good bit of advice there thanks a lot. Yes I do need to do a bit more comparing between the pianos, I can't compare em all, but I'm reckoning this Schimmel might be a good buy given it's fine craftsmanship, I want the thing to last me, not saying the Weinbach won't but if I'm spending this sorta money I'd rather get the better built instrunment, but obviously as you say you Have to get what sounds and feels right to you, thing is you can't do that easily in a shop when you have a lot of folk with you, and I cannot come myself to Edinburgh back and forth many times, I just can't justify that many trips it's a fair ways from Glasgow, atleast 2 hours by train and bus, now you might think that's worth it, but I'd much rather get something I'm pretty happy with and start playing it otherwise I'd be tooling about for months and would not be making a decision, I'd be waffling if ye know what I mean. You might reckon I am being stupid by hurrying this along too soon but I will defo go back over and try the Schimmel properly and do a cross comparison with the Weinbach and a few others and then see what I reckon the best one is, but given the choice I have now of what's there and what I've seen it looks like this Schimmel or the Weinbach is gonna be the one, Steinway, Fazioli, are probably out of my budget y'see if I find any don't get me wrong I'll defo try em' out, but you have to remember your budget and what's available in it. You can't have everything if you only have 10-15k to spend.

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#2304092 - 07/19/14 04:15 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
Without wanting to influence your decision too much but the Schimmel is in quite a different league then the Steinbach.
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2304097 - 07/19/14 04:30 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: wimpiano]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Yeah I'd say it aught to be given it's like £6,000 of a difference you'd expect it to be, plus it's built in Germany versus the Weinbach which is built in the Czech Republic, didn't give us much confidence when I heard that one.

Having said that, the Weinbach, well the little 170 I tried, sound lovely especially the mid-range the treble was abit muffled, hard to describe abit sloshy way, ,the Schimmel had a nice powerfull bass, nice mid-range and treble, I didn't play it too much so I need to go play it again to get a better idea of what it sounded like, now that I recall it was actually quite soft at middle C, but the lower mid-range from there down and the bass just wasn't as warm and creamy as the little Weinbach, but as James Cameron told me, that could be the location of it, and the showroom as much as how others have said, the way it's set-up, could be a whold different story when it's in my front summer room, that's the thing I don't know whether I'm gonna like it till I get it home, I'm paying it up, and I'm sure Jamie or James would allow me to exchange it if I decided on the other piano within a month or so. Even at that if I had to keep the Schimmel anything's gonna be better as Joe said, than my little Paul Newman.

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#2304105 - 07/19/14 04:45 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: phantomFive]
BrianDX Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/14/14
Posts: 776
Loc: Lewes DE
Originally Posted By: phantomFive
Originally Posted By: wimpiano
Yamaha is even brighter (thought their latest pianos seem a little less bright If I am not mistaken?).

I don't know if I would say "less bright," although I'm sure it can be voiced down; the way I would describe it is "richer tone."

I would most certainly say less bright, especially in their newer C models and new CX models. The current issue of Piano Buyer does a better job of explaining this than I probably could.
_________________________
Groucho Marx: "Now we're getting somewhere"
2013 Yamaha C2X | 2001 Yamaha M500-F .
Current: Schein - Allemande | Faber - Lunar Eclipse, Scarborough Fair
Upcoming: Faber - Funiculì, Funiculà

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#2304156 - 07/19/14 07:09 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
supersport Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 404
Loc: Arkansas
Sam4,

Are you sure you want to burden yourself with a huge debt now for something that is not related at all to your studies? There is no reason to rush into buying any of these pianos.
_________________________
David




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#2304161 - 07/19/14 07:20 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: supersport]
Sam4 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Well I enjoy playing the piano, and I want to rplace my Paul Newman, it isn't related to my studies, but these are payed for in Scotland, I'll be payin them back for the next 20-30 years anyway, and the piano gives me some relxation from doing my computing work, so yes, it is worth the expense, and really it's not that much of an expense, it is more than do-able I have a proper job to that earns an OK wage, and as I'm paying it up, is that really a debt if you set aside the monthly payments? As long as you can still live and enjoy yourself with what else you have left over I reckon it's well worth the money, I get a lot of pleasure out of it, it's one of my main hobbies, it keeps me happy, I've don it since I was a kid my uncle got my into music, and I play for my own enjoyment not professionally, have a look at my youtube channel you'll see some of the stuff I play to give ye an idea of what I like doin.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Samthebam4044

I agree with you I might be rushing into this too quickly I need more trips down to the shop to looks and sit down with more pianos to really get a feel for what one I'm gonna be happiest with, had so many over the years as gifts from people it's hard to tell what you want out of a piano but as others have said something will get you when you play the right one for you.

I do appreciate your concern though, I see where your coming from, and no I isn't the best idea to start spending this sorta money, but consider this.

I'm partially-sighted, I'll probably not be able to own a car soon because I can't see properly. Now if nealy all of my work mates can afford to pay insurance, road tax, petrol etc on their own cars, and they all earn roughly the same as me, I got a disabled bus pass to help with travel.

Thus, I've budgeted this out, and it's very achievable given that I'm careful with where my dosh is going, cutting back on too many coffee's Lol stuff like that. I work same as everyone else, and by my reckoning adding up the cost of owning a car, which most of my mates use for socialising btw, I'm not spending anymore than your average young person does on a yearly basis, I don't go out at the weekends drinking or clubbing, so the piano is my way of entertaining myself.

Granted I'm making a general sweep of young folk, which isn't to say all young people go out drinking or have a car, there are plenty of poorer people than ourselves out there who can't afford to feed or clothe themselves let alone buy a piano.

Ok that was abit of an extravagant rant but y'see my argument, I've added up how much it'll cost me and worked out I've got more than enough left to live on and enjoy myself at the same time, so I don't think this is a stupid idea, but I can defo see why you'd say that given my studies just now, but I can afford this if I plan correctly.


Edited by Sam4 (07/19/14 08:07 PM)

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#2304294 - 07/20/14 07:17 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
All said the answer kind of remains, buy what you like. BTW. 18000 GBP for this instrument seems like a very good price. Still, you have to like it enough wink
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2304314 - 07/20/14 08:36 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1958
Loc: Suffolk, England
I'd expect to find a good selection of pianos for £18,000 or less in the United Kingdom. Here's one and a few more from the first reputable sources that came to mind.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2304325 - 07/20/14 09:03 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
The last one on your first link looks very interesting. Never heard of tropicalized piano's but it sure looks nice.
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2304480 - 07/20/14 04:52 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Just to add a funny aside here, if I buy the Schimmel I'm hardly ever gonna be able to say it without laughing. Y'se here in Scotland, well in Glasgow anyway, some people talk with a slur to their words.

Something just caught my attention that made me almost wet myself, if anyone's ever seen the Scottish comedy "Still Game" ,the 2 main characters Jack and Victor go into the loony bin during on episode and an old deluded guy jumps at them holding his hand out and shouting "Smelll ma Fingers, get them smelt it's the good stuff".

See, every time I say Schimmel to somebody, if you say it a certain way inscots dialect it sounds like smell so it's gonna bring up that quote every time, just thought it was kinda hilarious if you kinda see the relationship.

I'm getting off-track but here's the clip if you wanna se it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T18FADQgbbs

My mum has pretty much decided on the Schimmel, but I need to see if Jamie can give me a good deal on it.

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#2304552 - 07/20/14 09:08 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
supersport Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 404
Loc: Arkansas
A nice piano is definitely an enjoyment. I listened to these clips of Schimmel 189s for sale in the US and can see why you are attracted to it. Even on You Tube they sound great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jZECzjCQJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kqea1NZJ5M

Work on that good deal.

Best wishes whichever you choose.
_________________________
David




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#2304577 - 07/20/14 10:25 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Dave B Offline
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Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1973
Loc: Philadelphia area
Schimmel K series are nice pianos. I haven't come across a bad one.

Enjoy

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#2304601 - 07/20/14 11:42 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Almaviva Offline
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Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 607
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Schimmel has a very good reputation. As for Weinbach, consider this quote from the current issue of Piano Buyer:

"Note: For years, Weinbach pianos were made by the Petrof company and were virtually identical to Petrof brand pianos. The Weinbach name is no longer being used in North America."

If Weinbachs were virtually identical to Petrofs, that would indicate that Weinbach pianos have a good reputation as well.

That said, that tells you nothing about the specific pianos you are considering. In addition, I am of the opinion that you are much too early in the piano-shopping process to begin zeroing in on two pianos. Play a wide variety of instruments before you make a decision, and have a good independent technician examine the last two or three finalists.

If you prefer wooden veneers to ebonized finishes, you can get virtually any piano in a variety of wood finishes, provided you are willing to pay a little higher price.

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#2304666 - 07/21/14 03:16 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
BTW. forgot to mention. But did you try the search function on the Schimmel K189? There are quite an number of threads about it (in praise).
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2304885 - 07/21/14 02:48 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Almaviva]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Thanks Bud.
The only thing is, this is a 2nd-hand piano so the finish you get is what you get, it's ebony or nout. Only thing I could do is hunt about for a mahogany polish Schimmel I'd I suppose their none too common most of them are probably ebony polish, though my mum likes ebony. Only other thing would be to buy a brand new one at like £44,000 or whatever they go for new, I'm told that's what they retail for and I'd say that's about right given it's quality.

There is no way I'm gonna buy or be able to afford a new one, not unless I can get credit for long enough that the monthly payments are within my budget, that'd be like 10-15 years and I don't think you can get credit for that period.

The Weinbach 170 despite it's rather dull cabinet and naff wood finish, sounded really good to me, up top was abit mushy and sloshy sounding, but my tuner assured me once it's played in it will sound magnificent, it's pretty much brand new, though it's been in the showroom for like 10 years or so and hasn't been sold so obviously as others have said it'll need a good goin over and checked for dryness or whatever else.

I dunno, I can't hunt about for yonks, I do want to replace my Newman in the next year or so, I know you should not rush things like this too much, but whatever I buy I will get used to, won't have much choice I'll have to, yes you'd like to get it right as you can, but I'll be asking if I bought the right one whatever I buy, it'll hardly be perfect in every area I'll always find something to moan about, so best to decide on a quality piano that has the sound you most like out of what's available, if I went trying out all the pianos in Jame's warehouse, I'd still be humming and hohing next Christmas, might be the wise thing to do but I'd like to buy something this year, this Schimmel looks promising given what I played on it and looks the best value for money given it's pristine quality and age, I will keep the Weinbach on the sidelinne though, and maybe try some Yamaha's while I'm at it, but I'd like to shave down the number of options because otherwise I'd not make a decision, that's the type a fella I am, always wavering.

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#2305267 - 07/22/14 09:32 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1247
Sam it sounds like you are very difficult to please!

The Schimmel is a good piano, exceptionally well made, and that particular example looks pristine. If he's offering it for £18,000 and you have the money, then take it because they cost about £32,000 (the dealer for new Schimmel in the UK is Peregrine's in London, and they have a concert 189T for sale, new, at £31,390), and I'd say that's a good deal.

The Weinbach isn't a 'naff wood finish' it's in Satin Mahogany. The varnish on it is matt finish rather than gloss finish. Regarding the sound being a bit mushy up top - well, that could be something that brightens up with age, or it could be something else inherent in the design of the piano.

James Cameron has a Kawai KG-2 advertised on his website, it's £3750, which is a good price. Kawai is a good piano and this could be well worth a look if you can cope with the faded casework.

If Jamie or James are offering you credit without a deposit (and by deposit I mean like 50% of the price and then the rest over 3 years), then you're doing well. You'll have to see what you can afford according to what level of credit you can get from either of them.

I can't help get the feeling though, that one day we're going to sign in to this forum and we're going to see 'New Steinway Model A, any good?' ;-)

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#2305508 - 07/22/14 04:20 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
Sam4 Online   content
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Posts: 134
Haha good one Joe. Nah I don't reckon I'll be posting that very soon, I'm not that daft, I know what I can realistically spend, and that is a no-go for me, atleast for another 20-30 years anyway.

All's I was saying was, the Weinbach looks naff to me, I know it's satin, just the general cabinet design was putting me off, and when your spending money on it, particularly when your own baby grand is almost the look you want and cost you next to nothing, you've a right to huff n' puff all you want, especially when Yamaha's go for that sorta money and look nicer ,well to me anyway.

I know I am not an easy guy to please, I'm hardly ever happy with anything, ask my uncle he'll tell you. I find it funny you have to pay more for the likes of mahogany and rosewood than satin, when you get thousands of older piano's, most of which look nicer to my eyes, and they're all mostly wooden finishes, then again we're talking totally different era here, obviously back then wood was cheaper and more plentiful, nowadays that sorta finish is understandably costlier, not to mention it's desirable, given how you don't see nearly as many wood grained ones about as you do black or white ones. That's not to say it was naff Joe that was just how I felt about it.

Jamie wanted to speak to me today about something, I'll need to give him a bell tomorrow to see what he wants. I probably will just go with the Schimmel, my gut instinct is that, while it might have lacked the warm creaminess of the little Weinbach 170, it just seems the better instrument and looks like it'll last longer and serve me better, and who knows, maybe it will start to really shine once I start playing it, maybe my initial impressions of it weren't the whole story, I didn't play it all that much, so I couldn't get a proper idea of how creamy it was, that and I didn't have the 170 next to it to compare it to, see now that's the pain in the bum, as James told me, you can't really start to get an appreciation for what it'll be like until you have it where your putting it in the house, so maybe it'll be just right when I've got it in the house.

I'm gonna give Jamie a ring and see what he's saying to it, and I'll let you all know what the deal is.

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#2306957 - 07/25/14 12:10 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Hi Guys
Just a quick update, my local tuner Jamie phoned me yesterday, and I told him I had been over at the Edinburgh piano Co and tried this Schimmel grand, plus the bigger Weinbach 192 which didn't really impress us like I expected it to.

He said he was looking out for a Schimmel and expressed an interest in buying one ,so I asked James if he might be willing to sell Jamie the Schimmel since he already gave him the little Weinbach 170. He hasn't came back to me yet be here's hoping because it would be a lot more convenient if I had both side by side to compare, and hey, even if I don't buy it, atleast Jamie will have what he wanted, though he did say I should be able to get one for less than £18,000, so dunno where he's got that from but he obviously knows better than I do.

He asked me again about the Weinbach 170, it is smaller than the Schimmel so I have my doubts, although that was the one that grabbed me at first save for the slight mushy sound above middle C, he said he's gonna voice it for me and then see what I reckon, I probably shouldn't use length as an indication of tone because the 170 didn't sound bad really given it's size but I dunno how It compares with the Schimmel directly because I haven't played both together at the same visit, so it's hard to compare them.

He also said I could come over next week to his Warehouse where he is currently restoring a C. Bechstein, a full restoration, new hammers, felts, board etc, and he says I might want to try that out, he's aiming for about £12,000 seems abit much but if I like it may be a good buy if the restoration is done well, it's a 6 footer so it's probably a Model A or something along that track, he couldn't remember off hand what model it was or it's age but he said to give him a phone next week and I can come and see what else he has.

However he did say he will still keep the Schimmel on the table and if he get's that one I want, I'll have all three, the Weinbach, Bechstein and the Schimmel to compare all in the same shop, though it does look like my sensible option is gonna be the Weinbach, if the Bechstein doesn't suit me, the Schimmel's gonna need a deposit, but I'll see what's what once they're all ready to rock n' roll.


Edited by Sam4 (07/25/14 12:15 PM)

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#2307026 - 07/25/14 02:50 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3612
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Sam4
... he is currently restoring a C. Bechstein, a full restoration, new hammers, felts, board etc, and he says I might want to try that out, he's aiming for about £12,000 seems abit much but if I like it may be a good buy if the restoration is done well...


A C Bechstein, full restoration, for £12,000? Seems rather unlikely. More like a partial restoration. Might still be good though. Might be a good move to get an independent technician to have a look at it though - if you are considering buying it. You want to know that the soundboard and bridge are in good shape.

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#2307030 - 07/25/14 03:06 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: ando]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Jamie is a qualified tuner and a technician himself, although your right in saying an independent or 2nd look over is a good idea, dunno I don't really like Bechstein's sound all that much, I'm still tempted by either the Schimmel or the Weinbach, having listened to a few clips on youtube, I reckon it might just be the Weinbach it just sound warmer and well, happier to me really. The schimmel really got me though with it's powerfull sound, but I'm not sure if that'd drive us bonkers if I play softer pop and balad type stuff, the little Weinbach might be better suited to my playing style. Should I be concerned about it only being a 170 or should that be big enough? Seems all the bigger ones I tried just didn't get me the same way, especially in the bass though once I have tried them all again I'll have a better idea.

Jamie's asking about £10,000 or so payin it up no deposit, seems fair enough given it's basically new.

Well, I say new it's been in the warehouse for quite a few years and others have advised me to have it checked for dryness, and other things, but it no doubt already has been if it's prepped for sale. I had my doubts about it's rather plain jane case and matt finish but really, that's not what's important the sound and touch is what it's all about, if I want to get it polished later on, I probably could. It is Rosewood, and the bigger 192cm version was Polished Rosewood and I loved that colour, so I guess you could get it professionally polished if you wanted to. Might not be cheap but I havn't found another 170 in this country in that finish that is close to me.

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#2307256 - 07/26/14 04:34 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1247
You may well indeed get a fully rebuilt bechstein for 12 k. IIt's not impossible but you need to know who did the restoration.

It sounds like the 170 weinbach is for you though.

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#2307258 - 07/26/14 04:38 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1247
Oh don't worry about the polyester - let it grow on you. Polyester finishes age quicker than satin anyway

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#2307263 - 07/26/14 05:31 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3612
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: joe80
You may well indeed get a fully rebuilt bechstein for 12 k.


Really, Joe? Is that including a new board - or would that be a refinished board that has had whatever attention it needs? In any case, a full rebuild of such a piano costs quite a bit more here in Australia. Then again, Australia pays more for everything piano related. This is not the country to come to for piano bargains!

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#2307285 - 07/26/14 08:51 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1247
Yes, it's possible in the UK. It's difficult but it's possible. For instance, if you have a core of say a bechstein model L, the 5 feet 6 model, you can have a new soundboard and plank installed, restrung, and the action rebuilt - oh and the frame regilded and refelted, and all the trap work and everything restored - MINUS the case work for around 9000 if you go factory direct. Well it might cost a little more than that but I know people are paying 13 to 17 k for full rebuilds including the case - the variation in price depends on the size of the piano and the finish.

In the UK there are no dealers who have their own workshop capable of soundboard replacement, and therefore they all go third party using either SAP or Piano Ficks in Poland, Steinway in Hamburg or Piano Restorations in Bucks UK. Or they just shim the original board....

Obviously going through a dealer costs more than going factory direct.

I find it surprising that one could go to a dealer and buy a fully rebuilt bechstein for less than 20 000 but workshop direct it is absolutely possible.

Unless of course the piano was fully rebuilt a few years back and is now being sold as a second hand rebuild.

The thing with rebuilds is you have to know what you're doing. I know many shops that sell rebuilt pianos and they are effectively tarted up piles of junk. A good way to tell is to start by having a conversation with the dealer about the instrument for sale. I know someone who was asked to leave a piano shop because he asked so many questions about the piano, the dealer became uncomfortable and put him out. Steinway and Bluthner in London are happy to let you look under the hood and inspect the piano through and through which is a good sign.

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#2307414 - 07/26/14 04:15 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
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Posts: 134
I'd sure hope they would after all, if your willing to give anybody that kinda money for something ,you should expect to be able to look at everything and nit-pick it the same as you would a car or a house.

I've asked James (nicely of course) if he'd be willing to lend or sell Jamie the Schimmel for the shop so that I could have the 2 alongside each other to compare more easily. I know that's kind of idealaistic in my favour but seeing as I'm looking at buying one or the other, Jamie wants a Schimmel anyway and everyone's a winner whichever way since James will make money selling it to Jamie, I'll get one of the pianos, and even if I buy the Weinbach, Jamie will have his Schimmel.

I'm still not sure which one to go for, I'm still tossing up the Schimmel (which by the way is the current model 189) aswell as both Weinbach's, the 170 and 192, even though the 170 caught my attention at first, and the 192 didn't impress us like I thought it would, I'm still gonna need to do one more comparison between all three before I make the final decision, the 170 looks promising, don't know if I'd be better with the 192 once it's serviced or voiced like the 170, but I need to try all 3 again to get a fairer comparison because I havn't played each enough to get a good enough feel for what I like, only the 170 impressed at the moment.

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#2307816 - 07/27/14 02:33 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
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Posts: 134
Personally, I'd rather steer well clear of a rebuild, for my money I'd rather have either A new piano or a good original condition second-hand one.

Don't get me wrong I'm well aware there can be nothing wrong with a rebuild, especially if it's done properly, but to me anyway, it's kinda just papering over the proper story, it's likely an old instrument that needed to be rebuilt, otherwise why'd it get rebuilt in the first place?

I'd rather buy a piano I know is in original condition, unless I really trusted the work that had been done to it, I'd rather feel good knowing that, ok even if it's abit abused, I can spend the money having it restored myself and that way, atleast you know where it's going, who's doing it and what's being done, call it paranoid, it's not I just prefer to see a piano it's honest new or used condition, if it's used, I'd rather see it's been used and what knick it's in, atleast then ye know and can see it for what it's really like and not just been as you say Joe, a tarted up piece a junk.

It's kinda like a car, a restoration can be brilliant or crap, but you feel much better if you buy a wreck and fix it yourself, than have a restored one without knowing much about it, or a restore that has stuff you'd rather not have.

Like I say don't get me wrong if the Bechstein turns out to be a real gem, then I might consider it, but I've never really liked Bechstein's tone. So, it's probably gonna be the Schimmel, or either of the 2 Weinbach's, don't know whether to go for the 170 or 192, I'd rather the bigger but it's tone didn't blow my socks off first time I played it, whether it'll sound nicer when it's serviced I dunno.

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#2307822 - 07/27/14 02:51 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
Sam, with all due respect, what you just said with respect to rebuilds does not make any sense.
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2307858 - 07/27/14 04:32 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: wimpiano]
Sam4 Online   content
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Posts: 134
Sorry bud I might not have made much sense when I was on about wanting to do it myself fair enough. All I was saying was, I'd rather buy a new piano or a good original piano, a rebuild just doesn't seem the a good way to go to me. I know it can be a very good buy if it's a job well done, but as Joe says you have to know what your looking for, I'm not saying I wouldn't consider buying one if I got offered it, it's just that unless I knew what had been done and had trust in the folk that did it, I'd rather spend my dosh on a new piano or a piano that is used, but is playable, might need some work, but then you can get a good handle on what needs done from a technician and then have it done, knowing that there's unlikely gonna be anything dodgy going on as Joe pointed out with some shops, and if something wrong did happen, well that's the risk you take, atleast if it's in original knick you know when you buy it that it hasn't been fiddled with ,bit done here bit done there as Joe says that can happen.

I'm not saying I won't look at rebuilds, I'm just cautious of them if I'm spending that kinda money, I'd like something that was either new or if it were a rebuild, I'd be asking who owned it before, what needed done, why was it done them sorts a things. A rebuild can be better than the original instrument, but at the price I'm looking to spend, as you said yourself, it's unlikely to be a full resoration, but a part-restoration, I don't want something that's half finished, I want something that's fully fledged and can serve me for years, I'd rather not have to do stuff to it down the road, which if it's only a part-rebuild, you might have to, and anyway, I'm spending £12,000 or so I want a complete instrument, isn't that a good thing?


Edited by Sam4 (07/27/14 04:35 PM)

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#2308068 - 07/28/14 08:55 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
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Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1247
Sam - if I may say, your main problem is your lack of experience as both a pianist and as a piano buyer. You are coming from a terrible piano that is clapped out, to new grand pianos, rebuilt pianos and all these variations in between.

My thought is that you're going to end up on an expensive mistake, and if I were you I'd broaden my horizons, embrace all that I don't know about rebuilds, Chinese pianos, upright pianos, and equip yourself with as much information about all these things as possible. Don't just go to one shop, go and see others. Try Alan makin in Edinburgh, Peter Smith in Glasgow, go and see dome second hand pianos. When I bought the brodmann I spent about 18 months looking. When I upgraded to the Bluthner I spent about a year but I had more knowledge and was able to talk to some of the best technicians available.

I didn't talk much to other pianists except for those I knew to be experienced in the technical side of the piano. I can tell at first, second, third, tenth play if I like a piano, but I can't tell if the piano will be right in the long term.

By the way, rebuilding is not papering over cracks - it is rebuilding - with new parts, New soundboards, new tuning planks - the lot.

Perhaps some 'reconditioned' pianos are time bombs but that's a different thing

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#2308075 - 07/28/14 09:30 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
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Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
Couldn't agree more. Even though I really LOVE the Schimmel K189 and would buy it when I had the space, money and permission wink from my wife without any hesitation, I doubt it is the piano for you. Same with the Weinbachs (those are really a step down from the Schimmel, do you realize that?).
It sounds like you haven't seen enough pianos to encounter THAT one piano. (Which is in most cases relatively easy to find). I would always prefer a good rebuild (which is verifiable) over a original condition, simply because it logically should have more life in it..
Beware though of Reconditioned or Refurbished or Refinished...
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2308174 - 07/28/14 02:31 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Originally Posted By: joe80
Sam - if I may say, your main problem is your lack of experience as both a pianist and as a piano buyer. You are coming from a terrible piano that is clapped out, to new grand pianos, rebuilt pianos and all these variations in between.

My thought is that you're going to end up on an expensive mistake, and if I were you I'd broaden my horizons, embrace all that I don't know about rebuilds, Chinese pianos, upright pianos, and equip yourself with as much information about all these things as possible. Don't just go to one shop, go and see others. Try Alan makin in Edinburgh, Peter Smith in Glasgow, go and see dome second hand pianos. When I bought the brodmann I spent about 18 months looking. When I upgraded to the Bluthner I spent about a year but I had more knowledge and was able to talk to some of the best technicians available.

I didn't talk much to other pianists except for those I knew to be experienced in the technical side of the piano. I can tell at first, second, third, tenth play if I like a piano, but I can't tell if the piano will be right in the long term.

By the way, rebuilding is not papering over cracks - it is rebuilding - with new parts, New soundboards, new tuning planks - the lot.

Perhaps some 'reconditioned' pianos are time bombs but that's a different thing
Hi Joe
I wouldn't say my littlePaul newman was totally "clapped out", abit older and maybe a little tired with some work needing to be done but Jamie looked at it and said it was in good knick, and it had been regularly serviced in it's previous home. It does still have quite a good bit of tone now it's settled in even though it most likely isn't what it used to be.

I also wouldn't say I lack skill as a pianist, I've been playing for nearly 20 years, what you call experience as a pianist and what I cal experience could be quite different, I don't play classical or maybe have the most subtle technique but who gives a toss? I play what I play and the most important thing is, I get a piano that sound and feels right for the stuff I do.

OK, i'm sure that's not what you were really getting at, I got abit apprehensive there as you do when somebody says you lack experience, you go who are they to say, but yes your right in that I do lack any know-how in buying a new or rebuilt piano. I will be trying more, but whatever the case, I'm going through Jamie because he's agreed to do me the kind of deal as well as giving me the money back for my baby grand, whether that's a good idea isn't up for discussion, my folks are helping me pay for this, and that's the way it's gonna be if I'm to get anything.

I have come from a background of older, perhaps clapped out by most folks standards pianos, although I can get along with pretty much any piano as long as it has atleast some tone in it, and I can get used to it and get a sound I like out of it, as you say Joe, I'll know when ther right one comes along, I have played pianos before which I knew I liked, heck funny story here, I nearly asked my university if I could have the Fazer upright, maybe not a very high quality piano, but I loved it's sound, so that's what was important.

You are right I'll have to get more clued-up on what goes into different pianos, but look, what's important really is, I try as many as I can, and when the right sounding one comes by, I'll get it, but Jamie has to be able to get it for me, that could be an issue, the Weinbach 170 as I said before caught me, as did the Schimmel, and I could over the years, get used to any flaws there are, as I also mentioned ,I 'll always moan about something with Any piano, and these 2 have most things right for me. Given I've come from the background I have with older, out of tune pianos, and still managed to get lessons, and teach myself and had fun playing on them, anything newer or rebuilt is likely gonna be better than what I have now, so I can't really make an expensive mistake can I? I'll buy the best one that I like the sound of that's available nearest to me, I've looked around enough and all this searching is startin to do ma box in, I now just want something I can play on to get rid of my Paul Newman, that might be a fool-hardy attitude you might say, but I reckon the right one won't be too far away.

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#2308416 - 07/29/14 08:59 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1247
Sam I stand by what I said - it wasn't meant to insult you in any way, but to help. If you have limitations in your technique it can be very difficult to understand, by playing, what makes a good piano.

At the end of the day, buy the piano you like best. I know some amateur pianists who are quite good and that have played for a long time who come and play my piano and think it is terrible because of the soft voicing. But it is actually their inability to produce a singing tone that is a problem, and once they get into the piano a bit they love it.

My view of what makes a good pianist is different from yours because I'm working at a high level all the time, dealing with miniscule touch variations and pedalling that depends on a millimeter to make a difference in the level of sustain I want. I want an action that allows me to play different notes in a chord at different volumes, or legato and staccato in the same hand, and do all sorts of trills, leaps, double octaves, thirds, sixths, etc and above all, produce a singing tone, and a fortissimo that is full but doesn't shatter glass. If a piano does all that, I don't really care if it lacks this or that, or even if it's brighter or mellower. I only care about the response of the instrument

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#2308535 - 07/29/14 02:27 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
That's alight Joe, I wasn't really offended, obviously you and me are different in what we want out of a piano, and as you need the responsiveness and careful control of the piano, that sorta thing would bother you, but to me with the sorta music I pplay, it doesn't, and I'm not looking to learn that kinda stuff for awhile yet, so as you rightly said, I have to find the piano that sounds beat for what I play just now, and if down the road I decide I need something more refined or control-able, then I'll upgrade or change as and when I have to.

I appreciate you don't want me making an expensive mistake, but like you say, you get a good feeling when the piano with the tone you love comes along, and it looks as if I'll just have to sit down with the Weinbach's and the Schimmel, and perhaps a few others, and get to know them better, and maybe ask Jamie and James for their advice aswell, I could also start alking with other technician't but really, it comes down to your own taste and preference doesn't it? Help from people in the know is always a good thing, but when all's over and done with, what's important is I (me) like the sound of it, it has to be able to handle rough loud playing when I do ragtime, but also soft enough to do ballad's and stuff, like you say, that could just be improving my style of playing, but I don't reckon I'm goin far wrong with the Weinbach here, that got me in most areas, well not far wrong for the £10,500 that Jamie wants for it, and even at that I could probably get him lower than that, paying it up with no deposit, a good return on my baby grand aswell, I mean he's not givin me a bad deal here Joe, yes the piano has to be mostly right for me, but as I said above, you get used to a piano's tone eventually, and as I'm basically well, hiring it so to speak, if I decide I don't like it, we can always try something else, I did say to him about the Schimmel, and he is tryin to get it so's I've got the 2 to compare alongside each other, but he is atleast trying his best to get me what I'm looking for, and I'm sure that soon enough, I'll find the right one. Given the experience I've had over the years with the piano's I've had, if I can get a decent tune out of them and be happy aswell, then I'm sure whatever I decide on will suffice perfectly well for me until I have the skill and desire to have something better.

However I'm glad your putting some sense my way and helping us abit here, by the way here's my latest fiasco, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdqS4Ytz7XM

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#2308637 - 07/29/14 05:30 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Please excuse the French but ,Swine, this is more like what I'd want outa the Weinbach IF I went for it, one US store has a polished walnut one, can't seem to find anything like that here in Scotland except Edinburgh Piano Co's rosewood one which I didn't like so much.


The Shops in Boston though Lol! I may just for a laugh contact them and say I'm interested and see what they say, jings can you believe what that'd cost to ship over here, looks like I'm gonna need to keep looking for the finish I want, I don't care if it's not important, I'm paying for it, so I'll get the look I want. Here it is http://rogers-piano.com/pianos/weinbach/


Edited by Sam4 (07/29/14 05:30 PM)

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#2308708 - 07/29/14 08:00 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
aesop Offline
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Registered: 07/05/14
Posts: 20
Hi Joe,

I can't agree any more with you. But...if you came up with two instruments, both of which reached your technic desire (e.g. a Schimmel Konzert and a Sauter), wouldn't the characteristics still be of little importance for your choice? laugh


Edited by aesop (07/29/14 11:51 PM)

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#2308807 - 07/30/14 03:15 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1247
Aesop - you're right, but probably less so. I mean, if I didn't like the sound I would probably think it was because it wad unresponsive - usually if a piano is too bright and therefore everything sounds quite monochromatic. I'd rather have too mellow because I know heat happens to pianos with age!

Other things would be is the sound full and rich, or is the sound clear cut and precise? Is it a balance of both? I want a piano that sounds as good for Brahms as it does Bach, one that allows me to play Debussy as well as Rachmaninoff. These finer details are sometimes more down to points of regulation and voicing than they are the actual piano - although if the instrument is sub standard to start with, it's going to be difficult to make it satisfactory.

A mediocre piano can be made good with regulation and voicing but it's never going to give you everything.

Personally, I'd go for a brand new tier one over anything - I prefer German pianos, that's personal though, although I love love love Fazioli - sono I pianoforti bellisimi! The CF Yamaha is good but not my favourite - although I appreciate it is of the highest quality

Second or equal first would be a rebuilt German piano - bechstein, Bluthner, grotrian, Steinway, or even ronisch, scheidmeyer, irmler or ibach. Or perhaps even hagspeil or ehrbar or rich. Lipp. There servant wonderful pianos coming out if Germany in the early 20 th c, that make excellent candidates for full rebuilds. Equally there was a lot of trash lol

Third I would pick Yamaha S and shigeru, fourth Yamaha C series and kawai rx.

I know schimmel is an excellent piano but the sound has never moved me.

Finally, for my purposes, having played many Brodmann, Wendl und Lung and Feurich - they're decent enough and functional but they just don't have what I need, and they don't actually feel solid enough even with feurichs developments with the reinforced keyboard. Just my two cents on what I'm looking for in a piano.

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#2308812 - 07/30/14 03:56 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Sam4
Given the experience I've had over the years with the piano's I've had, if I can get a decent tune out of them and be happy aswell, then I'm sure whatever I decide on will suffice perfectly well for me until I have the skill and desire to have something better.

I think when you buy an instrument such as the Schimmel you won't be looking for something better but you might look for something different.
In these categories it's more about taste then about quality.
For what it is worth, I don't think you are going to get a piano of equal quality for GBP 18000 anytime soon. (Unless you're buying a rebuild, the price on the Bechstein is incredible).
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2308813 - 07/30/14 03:57 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
wimpiano Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 1414
Loc: The Netherlands
Oh and by the way, when you are still going for a new Weinbach, why don't you just order one in the desired finish?
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S ..

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#2308852 - 07/30/14 07:44 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1247
Wimpiano, I think it's because these pianos are old stock and therefore offered at a lower price than a similar New instrument.

I agree, it's probably quite difficult to get higher quality than schimmel - without going for a fazioli - but that one might want a different sounding piano. Schimmel use very high quality parts and Labour

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#2308870 - 07/30/14 09:12 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: joe80]
aesop Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/05/14
Posts: 20
Joe,
Thx, you're very warm hearted~ ^_^ I learn a lot from your post. Actually, our tastes are quite alike, although I'm not professional and maybe cannot express what I feel enough clearly sometimes...and here's my story.

During my piano searching, it was easy at first to exclude other choices in my budget...until finally I came up with a Schimmel Konzert and a Sauter...similar price for them at dealers in my country. A time that I was really puzzled...I knowed the difference between them, but both were charming. When I tried one of them, I thought this was my piano. But when I played the other one to say a goodbye, there seemed to be greater persuasions to me: just take it! Hahaha...

So I went back home, for a long time didn't make my decision, and just put it aside. It was surprising that day by day, the sound of Sauter became closer to me, but the sound of Schimmel just stayed there.

Now I've got the Sauter. The sound of it is full, rich, and also clear. Sweet, but can be powerful as long as you need. It can speak in a very light way, or equally deep, depending on the touch. Perhaps there is something more than I can express with words...I think this piano is capable for all kinds of classical and modern pieces. Now what I have to do is just improving my technic, and understanding, to make my music ideal...Sauter is not only my piano, but also my partner, my friend. But I still consider Schimmel very lovely, and will always be very glad to play on them when there is a chance...like a date wink


Edited by aesop (07/30/14 10:12 PM)

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#2308875 - 07/30/14 09:26 AM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
The problem winpiano with that route is, it'd be way too expensive and out of my budget to buy a new one, when in many cases, the 2 weinbach's on offer here, whilst they are old stock and thus might need some attention, are basically new for like half the price.

OK you folk who are more clued can probably spot the difference between a brand new but I can't, and don't really care much. If I was gonna spend that sorta money, I'd be just aswell looking at the higher-quality Petrof or whatever else, in my affordable price range, and by the way I don't actually have that in notes, I'm paying this up through Jamie McLaren in his shop, the Weinbach's or the Schimmel look to be the best bet's in terms of tone, and reliability down the road, y'see you have to remember that I'm probably not gonna be changing this for quite awhile, I'll be paying it for quite abit, I'm never gonna have that sorta money anyway, and the deal me and Jamie have come to is I reckon quite an agreeable one.

Now as Joe mentioned, when you add that into the mix, things start to look very different in terms of what your options are, of all the pianos I've tried these 3 seem to be the nicest to me, yes I'll be trying out more, but the thing is, I HAVE to be able to pay it up, through Jamie thus he has to be able to get it, otherwise it's a no-go unless I want to save up for the next 20 odd years for a new one, which let me tell you is how many it would take me with my employment.

Ordering a new one might still be possible, but I would need to put a deposit down on it, and really, I don't see much point in that, given the one's he has in the shop seem to be just fine to me. Don't get me wrong if I try more pianos, Yamaha, the restored Bechstein I was talking about earlier, and maybe some others, and we find one I like, sure I'll go for it, or if indeed a new one is feasible, then I'd do that too if I could get the finish I wanted, but I doubt that'd be sensible given my financial situation and what my options are just now.

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#2309815 - 08/01/14 01:31 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Well uys I went back round to Jamie's shop today to try out the Weinbach once again, and joe I'm glad you mentioned trying different pianos and playing each for abit, you do start to get a grip of things you do and don't like and you notice stuff that might bother you over the course of having it.

Take the Weinbach 170, having played it again, I now notice the touch is way too heavy and the treble dings like a bell, sounds as if there's somebody playin a triangle on top of ach note, and it rings too long for me, Jamie says he's still to voice it down and given it's brand new and hasn't been played really, it needs time to settle in, so I might still keep it on my list for now just in case I'm judging it unfairly, it's kind of a shame really because I'm still blown over by it's powerful deep bass, but that sound above middle c would really get on my box after awhile if it didn't settle down or we'll have to see once Jamie voices it for us.

I've asked him to keep an eye out for other Weinbach's, any Petrof's and any Schimmel's he may come across and et me know if he get's any in, I did play the Yamaha's, Bluthner's he had, they all had there ups and downs but long story short, none of them as you say got me completely.

I'm still asking James Cameron if he can lend Jamie the Schimmel Konzert, as that looks very promising, I may go over again to sample it and the bigger Weinbach, as I don't think the first time really gave me enough of a chance to really get to know the pianos, it never does. However I can now see what you sll mean by trying them out a fw times, only when you go back again do you start really looking at things properly, and look at what you'd be like with the instrument over the years. It's gonna be a real stretch to get at the Schimmel, but if I can settle a good deal with James, then I'll really consider it, Jamie offered the Weinbach 170 for £10,000, so I reckon the Schimmel could come down to about £16,000 or so, if it's used that could work if he's really wanting a sale.

So until I hear anything from the 2 fellas, I'm still on the lookout.

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#2309846 - 08/01/14 03:44 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3612
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Sam, I fear you are boxing yourself into a corner by sticking so firmly to one dealer. How do you actually know that you can't get a similar deal elsewhere? You've already got a taste for how difficult this decision can be. It's hard to find "the one" - so logic dictates that you have to cast a wide net to find that one. Your ideal piano might be just sitting in another store waiting for you to walk through the door - but you'll never know if you never consider other dealers. Give it some thought. I doubt you are getting an unrepeatable deal with your current dealer. You aren't married to your dealer - get out and see other people! wink

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#2309885 - 08/01/14 05:07 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
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Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
No I fully understand where your coming from Ando, I have actually visited other dealerships, and found some that I really like, to that I've asked them if they may lend the one I am considering, which is the Schimmel in the title of this post, to my dealer, they are in actual the same company, but the Edinburgh showroom and warehouse is much larger and has far more to look at and a much bigger range, then agin Jamie is always renewing his stock and his shop is comparitivly teensy by comparison, hence I am looking at other dealse, I appreciate that I could very well get a similar deal elsewhere, yes I'm not married to the dealer, but a lot of other dealers will want you to pass a credit check with something like this, mine does not and I have had a lot of work done from him, aswell as many favors before, I know that's not that important, but there's something to be said for trusting somebody.

I have told him the sorts of things I'm looking for, and he buys and looks out for those pianos all the time. So as I'm going round the dealers looking at other stuff, I still have Jamie on the hunt for the brand and models of piano's I have either heard or played at someone else's shop, bad scenario he could buy the piano off another dealer should that dealer not be willing to give me the sorta finance deal I need, nothing wrong with doing that, as I say I'm not boxing myself in, when as you say I find the one that's right, I'll know and can then decide what to do, but the Schimmel is the good contendr. I don't have the capability to go round every store in Britain, just the one's that are local to me, and that's what I'm doing, I'm sure something will come along, as I say Jamie is always getting new stuff, used Steinway's an all, so I'm confident the right one will turn up.

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#2321622 - 08/29/14 04:37 PM Re: Schimmel Kozert 187 Grand Piano any good for the money? [Re: Sam4]
Sam4 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/16/14
Posts: 134
Hi guys
Just spoke to Martin Smith of Peter Smith's pianos in Paisley asking him if has ever come across a Mahogany Schimmel Konzert series grand piano. He said he hasn't ever seen one, and if He was in my position, he'd take a black one anyday because the wood finish one's residuel value is hee-haw in comparison.

Don't really give a hoot about resale anyway, but he says that because nobody wants them (relatively you understand) in comparison to ebony and white, they're more expensive to make, and so less are made bla, bla bla.

However he suggested if I still wanted one (which I do because I don't like ebony that much, and hey your better getting what you want right since you won't get money back on it anyway, I speak to Forsyths in Manchester.

Spoke to them and they have Mahogany Schimmel's, albet the cheaper Classic C182T, although they do have a satin mahogany, K189T, now THAT might just be the ticket, although I couldn't help spying the brand new K195T, forget it, way out of my league price-wise.

As Mathew there said the 2nd-hand market for Schimmel's is unpredictable and here aren't many around to choose from, I was gonnd consider buying a new one instead, although given I'm only 26 part-time employed and still a student I doubt I'd get a loan for the sorta money I'd be looking at, which is like £50,000 for the current K195, seems you need some serious money in this game, but I'm definitely gonna check the satin K189T out, looks promising, and the only One I've found in the UK, closest thing I've found is the massacre ebony K189T at BestbrodePianos, at £25,000, too expensive up-front though which is the only way they do things.

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