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#2303886 - 07/18/14 11:24 PM Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week
rov Offline
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 105
Loc: Mexico
Hi, I learned this etude in a week, and after a week I am able to play it at 104 bpm with very few mistakes, is this a good improvement?. Will I be able to play it at full tempo in some months?.
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#2303888 - 07/18/14 11:28 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
joonsang Offline
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Registered: 10/24/13
Posts: 66
i think only you can make that determination. stay relaxed and aim for gradual tempo increase while staying relaxed. The notes and melody itself aren't too difficult, but to really make this piece is through slow-practice

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#2303889 - 07/18/14 11:39 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18033
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: rov
Hi, I learned this etude in a week, and after a week I am able to play it at 104 bpm with very few mistakes, is this a good improvement?. Will I be able to play it at full tempo in some months?.


I would have to hear your performance before making any judgment.

Regards,
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#2303904 - 07/19/14 01:00 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Mark_C Online   content
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I'm with Bruce.

What you're saying sounds good, sort of, but.....it depends how the music sounds.

There's more to it than getting the notes. Performances that miss notes can be better (way better) than ones that don't. And it's possible for performances that do get all the notes to be pretty bad. I'm not saying yours is (at all!), just that "getting the notes" doesn't say what we'd need to know. It's a good start, though. And having done it in a week is pretty impressive. smile

Originally Posted By: joonsang
....The notes and melody itself aren't too difficult....

I like the rest of what you said but I can't agree with this part. Even just the notes are very hard -- for most people.

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#2303907 - 07/19/14 01:13 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
faulty_Damper Offline
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Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
It depends on the movements you use (or don't use) which will either make it effortless or require infinite practice. That tempo doesn't mean much because you can play anything slower and not actually be able to play at tempo.

For this specific piece, you should be able to play it at tempo almost immediately. The biggest difficulty is getting the coordination right and linking the patterns all together. This is not a piece that you can gradually build up to tempo.


Edited by faulty_Damper (07/19/14 01:14 AM)

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#2303908 - 07/19/14 01:20 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
Mark_C Online   content
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Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
....you can play anything slower and not actually be able to play at tempo.

Very true.

Quote:
For this specific piece, you should be able to play it at tempo almost immediately....This is not a piece that you can gradually build up to tempo.

Very false. grin

I think you better explain that....

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#2303920 - 07/19/14 02:28 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Mark_C]
faulty_Damper Offline
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Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Mark_C

Quote:
For this specific piece, you should be able to play it at tempo almost immediately....This is not a piece that you can gradually build up to tempo.

Very false. grin

I think you better explain that....


If you get the combination of movements right, you can get the speed immediately. However, if you don't get the combination of movements right, you can hit the speed wall trying to make up for the inefficient/incorrect movements and causing strain in the process. The movements aren't too obvious in this piece, but are much more obvious compared to the other studies. E.g. the wrist makes numerous adjustments to align the fingers as demonstrated by Louis Lortie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH6za0Cp4RA
Louis Lortie plays Chopin's Etude in C major, Op. 10 No.1

Contrary, this tutorial by Paul Barton is incorrect about the stretching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6vp8QIfcIg


Edited by faulty_Damper (07/19/14 02:45 AM)

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#2303950 - 07/19/14 07:53 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
Damon Online   happy
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper

If you get the combination of movements right, you can get the speed immediately. However, if you don't get the combination of movements right, you can hit the speed wall trying to make up for the inefficient/incorrect movements and causing strain in the process.


You could say that about any piece. Most people don't have the training or memory to do that and have to build up to it.
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It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2303969 - 07/19/14 09:15 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Damon]
Morodiene Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/07
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper

If you get the combination of movements right, you can get the speed immediately. However, if you don't get the combination of movements right, you can hit the speed wall trying to make up for the inefficient/incorrect movements and causing strain in the process.


You could say that about any piece. Most people don't have the training or memory to do that and have to build up to it.


I'm with Mark and Damon on this. I think any piece can benefit from slow practice, even if it's easy or you have the "combination of movements right" (not really sure what you mean by that statement).
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#2303994 - 07/19/14 11:09 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Parks Offline
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Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 440
Loc: Northern CA
The "combination of movements" must go hand in hand with a sound appropriate for the piece on which it is applied, no matter the tempo.

Let's say he take op.10, no.1 up to a fast tempo. So what? What then? That says nothing about how it sounds.
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"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
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#2304028 - 07/19/14 01:52 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
faulty_Damper Offline
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Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Technique is mostly about the combination of movements of the playing apparatus. It's not just a finger exercise. This piece is definitely not a finger exercise but if you use limited movements then this piece will be a pain in the hand, literally.

Also, technique and sound go inner ear to hand. It's already a given that you use the best combination of movements to achieve the desired sound. If you get the desired sound but don't use the best combination of movements, then it will be a struggle and require constant practice.

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#2304043 - 07/19/14 02:26 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
Mark_C Online   content
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Loc: New York
FaultyD: You seem very convinced. You need to be not so convinced. smile

Much of what you're saying is certainly valid, but about your bottom lines.....maybe they're true for you, and maybe also for a relatively few other people. But they're not true for most.

For most people, even highly talented advanced players, pieces like this require a great deal of practice, and often some struggle -- even for people who have "the right" movements.

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#2304054 - 07/19/14 02:59 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
doctor S Online   content
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Registered: 05/27/12
Posts: 136
Loc: Western PA
Even Richter chipped notes on this etude....
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#2304056 - 07/19/14 03:02 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: doctor S]
Mark_C Online   content
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....and it was said (don't know if it's true) that this etude was the reason Rubinstein would never record the Etudes.

P.S. I did a little searching to see if I could find out about this, one way or the other, and I didn't. But in one of the references that talks about Rubinstein and the Etudes, I did find this:

"Even....Vladimir Horowitz....is quoted as saying that the one in C major, op. 10 no. 1, did not fit his hand...."

(Victor Lederer, A Listener's Guide to the Master of the Piano)


Edited by Mark_C (07/19/14 03:10 PM)

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#2304065 - 07/19/14 03:25 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 440
Loc: Northern CA
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.
_________________________
Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci

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#2304119 - 07/19/14 05:13 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Mark_C]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
FaultyD: You seem very convinced. You need to be not so convinced. smile

Much of what you're saying is certainly valid, but about your bottom lines.....maybe they're true for you, and maybe also for a relatively few other people. But they're not true for most.

For most people, even highly talented advanced players, pieces like this require a great deal of practice, and often some struggle -- even for people who have "the right" movements.


This is an incorrect assumption here. Technique is all about coordination (and neurological and muscular conditioning). What the best pianists have that most don't is simply the best coordination of movements. Further, what makes many of these studies so difficult is due to the limited movements that most pianists use. Most pianists are not fully aware of the huge repertoire of movements that are available to be used. Thus, they are extremely limited from the very beginning. If they learned all of them, they'll realized just how easy playing actually is.

What you describe as struggling is what I referred earlier about making up for poor coordination or an incomplete use of all available movements. And I agree that this study can sound good even without using all available movements to play it. However, if they struggle to achieve that sound, they are not incorporating all necessary movements.


Edited by faulty_Damper (07/19/14 05:13 PM)

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#2304120 - 07/19/14 05:14 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Parks]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Parks
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.


You're asserting that the purpose of an etude is that it is supposed to be difficult. In actuality, the purpose of an etude is to learn it so that it's easy to play.

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#2304121 - 07/19/14 05:15 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Mark_C]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....and it was said (don't know if it's true) that this etude was the reason Rubinstein would never record the Etudes.

P.S. I did a little searching to see if I could find out about this, one way or the other, and I didn't. But in one of the references that talks about Rubinstein and the Etudes, I did find this:

"Even....Vladimir Horowitz....is quoted as saying that the one in C major, op. 10 no. 1, did not fit his hand...."

(Victor Lederer, A Listener's Guide to the Master of the Piano)


Because he used a very limited repertoire of movements as well as sitting too low, preventing use of those movements. He wasn't a very good pianist even if he sounded decent enough.


Edited by faulty_Damper (07/19/14 05:17 PM)

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#2304136 - 07/19/14 05:59 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11942
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
FaultyD: You seem very convinced. You need to be not so convinced. smile

Much of what you're saying is certainly valid, but about your bottom lines.....maybe they're true for you, and maybe also for a relatively few other people. But they're not true for most.

For most people, even highly talented advanced players, pieces like this require a great deal of practice, and often some struggle -- even for people who have "the right" movements.


This is an incorrect assumption here. Technique is all about coordination (and neurological and muscular conditioning). What the best pianists have that most don't is simply the best coordination of movements. Further, what makes many of these studies so difficult is due to the limited movements that most pianists use. Most pianists are not fully aware of the huge repertoire of movements that are available to be used. Thus, they are extremely limited from the very beginning. If they learned all of them, they'll realized just how easy playing actually is.

What you describe as struggling is what I referred earlier about making up for poor coordination or an incomplete use of all available movements. And I agree that this study can sound good even without using all available movements to play it. However, if they struggle to achieve that sound, they are not incorporating all necessary movements.


This sounds to me as though you are saying that in order to play this piece (and others that are considered difficult) one must have a vast repertoire of coordinated movements. OK, but how is this helpful in any way to the OP (or anyone else)? "In order to play this piece you must have what's needed to play it. If you don't have it it will be difficult."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it just sounds like a pithy bunch of words without any practical application to me.
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#2304145 - 07/19/14 06:28 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
The movements necessary to play the piano can be learned even by non-pianists. Pianists don't have unique bodies that allow them to move in ways that non-pianists can't. We all have the same muscles, tendons, joints, etc. However, in order for playing to be easy and effortless, the best combination of movements must be used.

Most pianists never use the best combination of movements because they are unaware of all of them. They are blinded either through explicit instruction or failing to thoroughly investigate the best movements. Further, what makes it difficult to learn these movements is the belief that more practice will automatically make it easier, like trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole. For anyone who's spent months trying to force their way to perfection, and then figured out how to play using more efficient movements, they'll know that this is true. It's not how much you practice, it's how you practice.

Piano technique is the combination of movements required to achieve the desired sound.
Good piano technique is the most efficient and effective movements that achieve that sound.

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#2304147 - 07/19/14 06:33 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
....and it was said (don't know if it's true) that this etude was the reason Rubinstein would never record the Etudes.

P.S. I did a little searching to see if I could find out about this, one way or the other, and I didn't. But in one of the references that talks about Rubinstein and the Etudes, I did find this:

"Even....Vladimir Horowitz....is quoted as saying that the one in C major, op. 10 no. 1, did not fit his hand...."

(Victor Lederer, A Listener's Guide to the Master of the Piano)


Because he used a very limited repertoire of movements as well as sitting too low, preventing use of those movements. He wasn't a very good pianist even if he sounded decent enough.


Who? Horowitz or Rubinstein?! Either way, you just made the "not to be taken seriously" list.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2304149 - 07/19/14 06:40 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Damon]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Damon

Who? Horowitz or Rubinstein?! Either way, you just made the "not to be taken seriously" list.


Don't worship them as idols. They were human, too.

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#2304153 - 07/19/14 06:58 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
Art_Vandelay Offline
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Registered: 06/13/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Stillwater, OK
That doesn't give you a reason to trash their playing either. This reminds me of the Seinfeld quote about Babe Ruth being " nothing but a fat man with little girl legs."
_________________________
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"If life gives you lemonade, make lemons. Life'll be all like whaaaaaat?" - Phil Dunphy

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#2304157 - 07/19/14 07:10 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
I wasn't trashing his playing. I specifically stated that "he used a very limited repertoire of movements as well as sitting too low, preventing use of those movements. He wasn't a very good pianist even if he sounded decent enough."

This should be understood quite well. However, because he was/is so admired, some people think that he is beyond reproach. This is idol worship. Idol worship allows people to have lower standards for themselves so that if they never achieve what their idols achieved, they can use the "mere mortal" excuse.

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#2304162 - 07/19/14 07:22 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Parks]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8889
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Parks
If you play an etude perfectly you've missed the point.

Completely confused here, care to explain? wink

So therefore if we play a Czerny etude perfectly (most can be sight-read), the point has been missed?

Does Ashkenazy miss the point?
_________________________
Jason

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#2304163 - 07/19/14 07:23 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6149
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: Damon

Who? Horowitz or Rubinstein?! Either way, you just made the "not to be taken seriously" list.


Don't worship them as idols. They were human, too.


I don't worship anything. You said, and I quote "He wasn't a very good pianist" about a legend. Was Muhammad Ali a mediocre boxer? Was Perlman a mediocre violinist? Did Rainman have trouble counting?
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2304170 - 07/19/14 07:40 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Damon]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Damon

I don't worship anything. You said, and I quote "He wasn't a very good pianist" about a legend. Was Muhammad Ali a mediocre boxer? Was Perlman a mediocre violinist? Did Rainman have trouble counting?


Do not confuse reputation for skill or expertise. And yes, Itzach Perlman is a mediocre violinist. Just listen to his recording of the Paganini Caprices; there are numerous issues with intonation. Further, you can't compare musicians with boxers. One is an art form, the other is a competition.

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#2304171 - 07/19/14 07:40 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8889
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
However, because he [Horowitz] was/is so admired, some people think that he is beyond reproach. This is idol worship. Idol worship allows people to have lower standards for themselves so that if they never achieve what their idols achieved, they can use the "mere mortal" excuse.

I have never seen any experienced member on this board make any claim whatsoever that Horowitz was 'beyond reproach'. Au contraire, many of us have issues with some of Horowitz's recordings!

The rest of your post comes off as a 'cut and paste' from a pop psychology magazine. Thanks anyway.
_________________________
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#2304174 - 07/19/14 07:45 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: argerichfan]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
However, because he [Horowitz] was/is so admired, some people think that he is beyond reproach. This is idol worship. Idol worship allows people to have lower standards for themselves so that if they never achieve what their idols achieved, they can use the "mere mortal" excuse.

I have never seen any experienced member on this board make any claim whatsoever that Horowitz was 'beyond reproach'. Au contraire, many of us have issues with some of Horowitz's recordings!

The rest of your post comes off as a 'cut and paste' from a pop psychology magazine. Thanks anyway.


Don't be so insulting and derisive. Please keep the forum a positive place. And even if the experienced members don't make that claim of Horowitz et al, others do, as this thread has some examples.

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#2304175 - 07/19/14 07:46 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
daro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 168
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Because he used a very limited repertoire of movements as well as sitting too low, preventing use of those movements. He wasn't a very good pianist even if he sounded decent enough.

Dare I ask what you think of Glenn Gould as a pianist?

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