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#2305370 - 07/22/14 01:00 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Art_Vandelay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Stillwater, OK
They also have a big hole in them, much like the logic present in this thread.
_________________________
"If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis."

"If life gives you lemonade, make lemons. Life'll be all like whaaaaaat?" - Phil Dunphy

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#2305371 - 07/22/14 01:01 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Art_Vandelay]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
They also have a big hole in them, much like the logic present in this thread.

Agreed. The science-rejecting side in discussions like this usually have gaping holes in their logic. Poor, poor people.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305372 - 07/22/14 01:04 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Parks]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Parks
Damper, fantastic post! Very well articulated.

Originally Posted By: Faulty_Damper
Just like some English speakers have Spanish accents, many pianists have a technical accents.

I love it!

Have you ever experienced an accentless performance? An accent is part of one's voice. ('Voice,' in the metaphorical sense. One could separate the two - timbre / accent - but, they both contribute to a composite signature. Would not a delivery sans accent be . . . . how shall I put this . . . . unhuman?

Pianos themselves have their own eccentricities: regulation, or voicing accents.


I don't think so. I'd like to think that my own playing is accent-less, but I know they probably are not. However, I would leave the accent, timbre, to the individual character of the instrument, not the pianist. Classical music isn't like jazz where you can identify musicians by certain stylistic idiosyncrasies. We're playing music of dead people, not improvising something spontaneous.

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#2305383 - 07/22/14 01:27 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Mark_C]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 958
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
We don't pick what muscles to use. We pick the movement, and the choice of the muscles is one of those miracles of evolution or creation or whatever we might believe in, the miracle of how our brains automatically and unconsciously translate those desired movements into combinations of musculature contractions and relaxations.
And that is something of far more interest - the nexus of thought and action.

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#2305384 - 07/22/14 01:29 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: chopin_r_us]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
And that is something of far more interest - the nexus of thought and action.

It's actually entirely false and is something that is not taught in classrooms (because it's untrue information). Mark_C does like to dive out of his expertise and say random things like this though, so it's no surprise.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305387 - 07/22/14 01:34 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 848
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Do you always have to deal with absolutes? Are you some kind of computer where everything is either entirely true or entirely false?
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2305391 - 07/22/14 01:36 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Vid]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Vid
Do you always have to deal with absolutes?

I don't like absolutes; a case can be made that we cannot be truly certain (100%) outside of mathematics, but scientific induction and reason can get us damn close (99.99%).

Science deals with objectivity: the is from which we can form an ought given some context.


Edited by Atrys (07/22/14 01:37 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305394 - 07/22/14 01:42 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Art_Vandelay]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5263
Hmmm, I've been putting my analytical hat on, and scrutinizing a troll's posts here.

I believe I've discovered the modus operandi of this not-so-mythical creature who lurks in our midst. He scans various threads looking for likely victims, then hurls himself in with choice insults, usually concerning the level of education of his chosen victims (which far exceed his, but he uses a bigger dictionary, and a monster Google machine wink which confuses them). Throwing in gobbledegook right, left and centre (and even backwards, upwards and downwards), he befuddles his victims' minds into believing that he, the troll, actually knows everything about everything, when in fact, he knows nothing about anything (like all trolls).

Putting my anatomical hat on, I observe that he brags about his (apparent) knowledge of anatomy by using various Latin terms from Gray's Anatomy, but then betrays his ignorance by attributing various independent actions to them which anyone with a modicum of knowledge of applied anatomy knows is totally ludicrous.

Finally, putting my own hat on (a Canadian Tilley hat, no less thumb), I deduce that to be rid of this nuisance, one should simply ignore this troll, who, being a mythical creature, will simply be so bored with the lack of victims that he disappears into oblivion in due course (i.e. starve grin).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2305395 - 07/22/14 01:45 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: bennevis]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Hmmm, I've been putting my analytical hat on, and scrutinizing a troll's posts here.

I believe I've discovered the modus operandi of this not-so-mythical creature who lurks in our midst. He scans various threads looking for likely victims, then hurls himself in with choice insults, usually concerning the level of education of his chosen victims (which far exceed his, but he uses a bigger dictionary, and a monster Google machine wink which confuses them). Throwing in gobbledegook right, left and centre (and even backwards, upwards and downwards), he befuddles his victims' minds into believing that he, the troll, actually knows everything about everything, when in fact, he knows nothing about anything (like all trolls).

Putting my anatomical hat on, I observe that he brags about his (apparent) knowledge of anatomy by using various Latin terms from Gray's Anatomy, but then betrays his ignorance by attributing various independent actions to them which anyone with a modicum of knowledge of applied anatomy knows is totally ludicrous.

Finally, putting my own hat on (a Canadian Tilley hat, no less thumb), I deduce that to be rid of this nuisance, one should simply ignore this troll, who, being a mythical creature, will simply be so bored with the lack of victims that he disappears into oblivion in due course (i.e. starve grin).

0/10
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305397 - 07/22/14 01:46 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 958
Loc: UK
Can I suggest he find a forum where they deal in 99.99% certainties? That is certainly (say 80%?) not piano playing.

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#2305399 - 07/22/14 01:48 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: chopin_r_us]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Can I suggest he find a forum where they deal in 99.99% certainties? That is certainly (say 80%?) not piano playing.

The act of piano playing is bound by physical laws which we learn about through the process of science. By understanding and leveraging the knowledge we gain through science, we can become better at [insert skill]. Here, "piano play" is that skill.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305401 - 07/22/14 01:51 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 958
Loc: UK
Painting is also bound by physical laws. Maybe find yourself an artist's forum?

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#2305402 - 07/22/14 01:54 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: chopin_r_us]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Painting is also bound by physical laws. Maybe find yourself an artist's forum?

A painting forum would be irrelevant to my interests because I do not paint. I play piano, so piano forums are relevant.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305405 - 07/22/14 01:59 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: bennevis]
the nosy ape Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 715
Loc: Westford, MA
Originally Posted By: bennevis
putting my own hat on (a Canadian Tilley hat, no less thumb)

The wife and I have matching Forest Green T2's. These hats have had tons of use for almost 20 years and they show almost no signs of wear. Tilley Endurables are aptly named.

Also, I love a good everything bagel with cream cheese, lox, and ripe tomato.

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#2305407 - 07/22/14 02:03 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6370
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Atrys
The act of piano playing is bound by physical laws which we learn about through the process of science.
Most folks become perfectly fine pianists without any knowledge whatsoever of those scientific physical laws. Perhaps they are the ones who are "gifted." grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305409 - 07/22/14 02:04 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 958
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Atrys

A painting forum would be irrelevant to my interests because I do not paint. I play piano, so piano forums are relevant.
O come on! Physical laws are physical laws. Give it a go - you couldn't do worse!

I see what you mean folks re: the bot thing.

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#2305417 - 07/22/14 02:14 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6370
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Painting is also bound by physical laws. Maybe find yourself an artist's forum?

A painting forum would be irrelevant to my interests because I do not paint. I play piano, so piano forums are relevant.
Thank you Dr. Spock !! wink
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305418 - 07/22/14 02:15 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: chopin_r_us]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: carey

Most folks become perfectly fine pianists without any knowledge whatsoever of those scientific physical laws.

That's fine, but proper education is what enables more people who set out to play this instrument actually become skilled at it. Now you're saying "No! Knowledge is bad! Do not teach!" and rejecting people's right to education; nice job.

Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us

O come on! Physical laws are physical laws. Give it a go - you couldn't do worse!

I said I'm not interested in painting, not that I think I couldn't do it. Most people can become extremely skilled at most things (painting, piano improv, Tetris, etc.)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305422 - 07/22/14 02:19 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: the nosy ape]
Art_Vandelay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Stillwater, OK
Originally Posted By: the nosy ape
Originally Posted By: bennevis
putting my own hat on (a Canadian Tilley hat, no less thumb)

The wife and I have matching Forest Green T2's. These hats have had tons of use for almost 20 years and they show almost no signs of wear. Tilley Endurables are aptly named.

Also, I love a good everything bagel with cream cheese, lox, and ripe tomato.


Lost me with the tomato, but still nice.
_________________________
"If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis."

"If life gives you lemonade, make lemons. Life'll be all like whaaaaaat?" - Phil Dunphy

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#2305428 - 07/22/14 02:26 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 958
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Atrys

I said I'm not interested in painting, not that I think I couldn't do it. Most people can become extremely skilled at most things (painting, piano improv, Tetris, etc.)

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#2305432 - 07/22/14 02:36 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: the nosy ape]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5263
Originally Posted By: the nosy ape
Originally Posted By: bennevis
putting my own hat on (a Canadian Tilley hat, no less thumb)

The wife and I have matching Forest Green T2's. These hats have had tons of use for almost 20 years and they show almost no signs of wear. Tilley Endurables are aptly named.

Also, I love a good everything bagel with cream cheese, lox, and ripe tomato.

Mine is a traditional cotton duck T3, circa 1992. It used to be white, but is now off-white (though it hasn't been through an elephant yet). And it still floats.... thumb

My bagel must have peanut butter, with a sprinkling of smoked paprika.....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2305437 - 07/22/14 02:40 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6370
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: carey
Most folks become perfectly fine pianists without any knowledge whatsoever of those scientific physical laws.
Originally Posted By: atrys
That's fine, but proper education is what enables more people who set out to play this instrument actually become skilled at it.
Sadly, very few folks receive a "proper" education these days - and that is the TRUTH.
Originally Posted By: atrys
Now you're saying "No! Knowledge is bad! Do not teach!" and rejecting people's right to education; nice job.
No - I was simply saying that "most folks become perfectly fine pianists without any knowledge whatsoever of those scientific physical laws." smile
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305439 - 07/22/14 02:46 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: carey]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: carey

Sadly, very few folks receive a "proper" education these days

You can tell when you see the amount of false information spread in many areas of artistic pedagogy (piano being principal among them all).

Originally Posted By: carey

I was simply saying that "most folks become perfectly fine pianists without any knowledge whatsoever of those scientific physical laws."

We all know what you literally wrote; I'm talking about what is implied by your writing. Scientific knowledge makes people better pianists.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305442 - 07/22/14 02:59 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 958
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Scientific knowledge makes people better pianists.
As does history and geography. What's your point?

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#2305443 - 07/22/14 03:02 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12043
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
What's worse is when a bot is allowed to come on this forum and spew out "knowledge" and clog up threads that originally are helpful to those involved. When will this thing get banned?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2305445 - 07/22/14 03:02 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: chopin_r_us]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us

As does history and geography. What's your point?

History and geography do not help address the act of piano playing insofar as the paying apparatus/mechanism. Physics does. Physiology does. Psychology does. Neuroscience does.

Certain disciplines of science are irrelevant to the acquisition of piano skill, but others are directly relevant and highly beneficial.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305446 - 07/22/14 03:02 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 848
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Can you site sources where scientific knowledge is applied to piano technique and pedagogy?

This isn't a challenge to your views at all but I'm genuinely interested in investigating such sources and find out what scientific research offers to the field.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2305447 - 07/22/14 03:04 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Vid]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12043
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Vid
Can you site sources where scientific knowledge is applied to piano technique and pedagogy?

This isn't a challenge to your views at all but I'm genuinely interested in investigating such sources and find out what scientific research offers to the field.
Oy. You don't think this has been asked ad nauseum?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2305450 - 07/22/14 03:07 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Vid]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Vid
Can you site sources where scientific knowledge is applied to piano technique and pedagogy?

This is a good start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientific_journals

Studies are a good entry point, but books are nice too.

Originally Posted By: Vid
I'm genuinely interested in investigating such sources and find out what scientific research offers to the field.

The problem is that piano pedagogy has been spewing out the same crap for so long, keeping itself in the dark while the sciences progress. People are starting realize how much piano can benefit from science, and are trying to play catch-up.

A little bit of curious research is all that is needed to see how much nonsense is taught in piano pedagogy today, and how much benefit can be leveraged by knowledge from physics, neuroscience, etc.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305451 - 07/22/14 03:09 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 958
Loc: UK
Poetry, art and architecture are the ones you really need to know about. Sorry, left out literature!


Edited by chopin_r_us (07/22/14 03:10 PM)

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