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#2305452 - 07/22/14 03:11 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Morodiene]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
What's worse is when a bot is allowed to come on this forum and spew out "knowledge" and clog up threads that originally are helpful to those involved. When will this thing get banned?

Another thing that's been asked ad nauseum.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2305453 - 07/22/14 03:11 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: chopin_r_us]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Poetry, art and architecture are the ones you really need to know about.

None of those things address the physical act of playing. They may help with artistic ideas (which are really just material happenings in your brain), but they won't help with an understanding of the physical act of piano play.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

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#2305455 - 07/22/14 03:15 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Morodiene]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 888
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Vid
Can you site sources where scientific knowledge is applied to piano technique and pedagogy?

This isn't a challenge to your views at all but I'm genuinely interested in investigating such sources and find out what scientific research offers to the field.
Oy. You don't think this has been asked ad nauseum?


Learned my lesson. Just go to all scientific literature in the English language and I will find the answer.
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2305456 - 07/22/14 03:15 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
chopin_r_us Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: UK
When you think about it forums are the perfect place to do the Turing Test. This one certainly fails!

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#2305457 - 07/22/14 03:16 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Vid]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Vid

Just go to all scientific literature in the English language and I will find the answer.

No, you won't be able to do that, and you don't need to either.

Just perform some searches on some journals as a starting point; it's pretty easy to intuit your way around the research-space after that.


Edited by Atrys (07/22/14 03:17 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305458 - 07/22/14 03:17 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: chopin_r_us]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
When you think about it forums are the perfect place to do the Turing Test. This one certainly fails!

There wasn't a Turing Test being run anywhere. A test that is not run cannot fail.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305462 - 07/22/14 03:24 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6469
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: carey

Sadly, very few folks receive a "proper" education these days
You can tell when you see the amount of false information spread in many areas of artistic pedagogy (piano being principal among them all).
Actually I'm referring to sad state of education in general, as evidenced by the growing number of high school graduates who can barely read, have only rudimentary math skills, and can't write their way out of a paper bag. And the situation isn't always much better at the college level (depending on the institution, of course). As for artistic pedagogy - many teachers simply teach the same way they were taught - and pedagogy courses aren't necessarily focused on "science."

Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: carey
I was simply saying that "most folks become perfectly fine pianists without any knowledge whatsoever of those scientific physical laws."
We all know what you literally wrote; I'm talking about what is implied by your writing. Scientific knowledge makes people better pianists.
MY understanding of the IMPLICATION of MY OWN statement is markedly different than your understanding of it. As for YOUR statement that "Scientific knowledge makes people better pianists," I'd qualify that by saying "Scientific knowledge has the potential to make some people better pianists...however, the information must be received, understood and put into practice. Not all folks are interested in or capable of doing that. Their loss, perhaps - but that's the way it is.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305467 - 07/22/14 03:36 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Vid]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5531
Originally Posted By: Vid
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Vid
Can you site sources where scientific knowledge is applied to piano technique and pedagogy?

This isn't a challenge to your views at all but I'm genuinely interested in investigating such sources and find out what scientific research offers to the field.
Oy. You don't think this has been asked ad nauseum?


Learned my lesson. Just go to all scientific literature in the English language and I will find the answer.

Alternatively, become adept with the Google search engine, and you'll soon discover where the troll finds his ludicrous and nonsensical 'facts'.

Seriously, the troll is spewing out lots of silly conjectures based on choice bits picked up from various websites, most of which are laughable in their idiocy. The latest one on the interossei muscles of the hand (which I'm very familiar with, having dissected my way through a cadaver during the training for my present job) is but one of numerous examples in this thread alone.

Let's all stop feeding this troll, before some of us - especially newer PW members - start questioning our own (and our teachers') judgements and reasonings of the how and why of the art of playing the piano.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2305469 - 07/22/14 03:38 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: carey]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: carey

As for artistic pedagogy - many teachers simply teach the same way they were taught

That right there is precisely the problem.

Originally Posted By: carey

Not all folks are interested in or capable of doing that.

These people are known as "ignorant" or "close-minded", but yes, I agree these sorts of people do exist. Those poor people.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305470 - 07/22/14 03:39 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6469
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Atrys
None of those things address the physical act of playing. They may help with artistic ideas (which are really just material happenings in your brain), but they won't help with an understanding of the physical act of piano play.
Perhaps this entire thread has simply been a material happening in my brain....although it feels more like a broken record that keeps repeating and repeating and repeating......
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305472 - 07/22/14 03:40 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 632
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Vid

Just go to all scientific literature in the English language and I will find the answer.

No, you won't be able to do that, and you don't need to either.

Just perform some searches on some journals as a starting point; it's pretty easy to intuit your way around the research-space after that.


Cite one specific source *you* think is relevant to your point. *That* would be a starting point relevant to this discussion.

Just a single one, so we can judge for ourselves whether any of what you are saying has been tested and proven through rigorous research as thoroughly as you claim. That's not asking too much, is it?

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#2305473 - 07/22/14 03:40 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: carey]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: carey

Perhaps this entire thread has simply been a material happening in my brain

I can confirm that it is not, and this thread is indeed real. It exists in a MySQL database outside of your mind...
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305475 - 07/22/14 03:42 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Saranoya]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Saranoya

Cite one specific source you think is relevant to your point.

Which point?
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305479 - 07/22/14 03:44 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
chopin_r_us Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: carey

Perhaps this entire thread has simply been a material happening in my brain

I can confirm that it is not, and this thread is indeed real. It exists in a MySQL database outside of your mind...
The internet has come alive. It's alive I tell you!

Top
#2305490 - 07/22/14 03:53 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6469
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: carey

As for artistic pedagogy - many teachers simply teach the same way they were taught

That right there is precisely the problem.
Of course it is. A no brainer.
Originally Posted By: atrys
Originally Posted By: carey
Not all folks are interested in or capable of doing that.
These people are known as "ignorant" or "close-minded", but yes, I agree these sorts of people do exist. Those poor people.
No - that's simply how YOU apparently choose to perceive and classify them. And I hope you realize how unbelievably condescending your "these sorts of people" and "those poor people" statements are.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305492 - 07/22/14 03:56 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: carey]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: carey
No - that's simply how YOU apparently choose to perceive and classify them.

Nope. It is a factually correct statement to say that these sorts of people are ignorant. It's not only my opinion, it's also a factual claim to truth.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305493 - 07/22/14 03:57 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 632
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
@ Atrys: A page or so ago, Vid asked you this question: can you cite sources where scientific knowledge is applied to piano technique and pedagogy?

Your response was to refer him to a Wikipedia page listing whatever scientific journals random people have thought to add, in a variety of disciplines so wide as to be pointless in the context of this particular conversation. It makes me think you are pulling your "objective truths" out of your hat, and to hide it, you tell people to "do their own homework".

Get me one peer-reviewed article that reports specifically on the relationship between movement and pianistic skill. Then perhaps, we can have a meaningful conversation based on that.

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#2305495 - 07/22/14 04:00 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Saranoya]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Saranoya
Vid asked you this question: can you cite sources where scientific knowledge is applied to piano technique and pedagogy?

My response was appropriate and addressed his request.

Originally Posted By: Saranoya

Get me one peer-reviewed article that reports specifically on the relationship between movement and pianistic skill.

One does not need an article to know that piano play is a physical feat, so of course movement and motions makeup this feat.

Jesus, it's like some of you people have never done homework or research or any other kind of intellectual endeavor in your whole life. Don't expect to be spoonfed everything. Laziness is just one of many paths to ignorance.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305499 - 07/22/14 04:11 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6469
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: carey
No - that's simply how YOU apparently choose to perceive and classify them.

Nope. It is a factually correct statement to say that these sorts of people are ignorant. It's not only my opinion, it's also a factual claim to truth.

Sure - whatever you want to believe is fine. Perception is reality after all. grin


Edited by carey (07/22/14 04:14 PM)
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2305501 - 07/22/14 04:14 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 632
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: Saranoya
Vid asked you this question: can you cite sources where scientific knowledge is applied to piano technique and pedagogy?

My response was appropriate and addressed his request.

Originally Posted By: Saranoya

Get me one peer-reviewed article that reports specifically on the relationship between movement and pianistic skill.

One does not need an article to know that piano play is a physical feat, so of course movement and motions makeup this feat.

Jesus, it's like some of you people have never done homework or research or any other kind of intellectual endeavor in your whole life. Don't expect to be spoonfed everything. Laziness is just one of many paths to ignorance.


You are a funny guy, Atrys. And so, oh so predictable. Once more, you've convinced me that talking to you is a waste of my time. This time it took only two posts. I'm learning.

By the way, I am in fact currently engaged in the writing of a chapter for an international scientific monograph, slated for publication in the first half of 2016. I know exactly how to "do my own homework". I just doubt that you do.

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#2305502 - 07/22/14 04:14 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Saranoya]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5531
Originally Posted By: Saranoya
@ Atrys: A page or so ago, Vid asked you this question: can you cite sources where scientific knowledge is applied to piano technique and pedagogy?

Your response was to refer him to a Wikipedia page listing whatever scientific journals random people have thought to add, in a variety of disciplines so wide as to be pointless in the context of this particular conversation. It makes me think you are pulling your "objective truths" out of your hat, and to hide it, you tell people to "do their own homework".


thumb

You got it - the troll claims that everything he says is validated by scientific research, when in fact none of them are. By throwing in lots of big, and seemingly 'scientific' words in every sentence (in the context of which real scientists would never use, and would laugh at their usage here), he apparently impressed a few people here enough to take him seriously - until the coin drops, when they realize that there is no substance to anything he says.

In other words, he is spouting total rubbish.

Let's all put a stop to this nonsense - he's already befuddled a new PW member on a neighboring thread, who's completely taken in by this charlatan.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#2305504 - 07/22/14 04:18 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Saranoya]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Saranoya
I know exactly how to "do my own homework".

Apparently not, since doing research seems out of your capability.

All you have to do is try, it's that simple.

I've addressed yours and Vid's points; don't get frustrated that you don't really know what it is you're asking (or doing).


Edited by Atrys (07/22/14 04:18 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305519 - 07/22/14 04:41 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 632
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: Atrys
I've addressed yours and Vid's points; don't get frustrated that you don't really know what it is you're asking (or doing).


I have two "pro tips" for you. After that I will leave this thread alone, because bennevis is right: it is profoundly pointless to keep feeding the trolls.
  • If you want to have any credibility whatsoever when accusing other people of using 'ad hominem' attacks in lieu of solid argumentation, then you should probably refrain from insulting others when you can't make your point, yourself.
  • Most of what comes up in any given Google search cannot actually be considered scientific knowledge, let alone "objective truth". Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

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#2305522 - 07/22/14 04:47 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 601
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Again, something cannot be true for you and be false for me; something is either true or it is false. You will not be able to find a counter-example to this claim.

Yes I can.

Statement: Grass is green.
This is true for humans who are not colorblind.
But it is not true for intelligent lifeforms who have a concept of colors, but perceive colors differently than humans.

Another quote about "objective truths" I like is: "Believing in objectivity means believing that observations can be made without an observer."

But I digress.

To come back to piano playing: I have not yet read all replies to this thread. I believe that maybe there are techniques that may be more efficient for a vast majority of people (like putting fingers forward); but if pianists are reluctant to use them for whatever reason, they should not be forced to use them.
Sort of like swimmers who don't want to do flip-turns and do open turns.

I believe that in order to make great music, pianists have to feel comfortable while piano playing. And there is no universal truth on which technique is best suited for it.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

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#2305524 - 07/22/14 04:49 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Saranoya]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: Saranoya

If you want to have any credibility when accusing other people of using 'ad hominem' attacks in lieu of solid argumentation, then you should probably refrain from insulting others when you can't make your point, yourself.

I can make my points. My factual assertions are sometimes attacked by ignorant and usually arrogant people who misunderstand the material and therefore think it's "wrong".

Originally Posted By: Saranoya

Most of what comes up in any given Google search cannot actually be considered scientific knowledge, let alone "objective truth". Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

No one actually "believes everything they read on the internet". Of course sourcing parties matter and what is being said even more, but an uneducated fool trying to have discourse with someone who knows their material will lose every time.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305525 - 07/22/14 04:56 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: patH]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: patH

Statement: Grass is green.
This is true for humans who are not colorblind.
But it is not true for intelligent lifeforms who have a concept of colors, but perceive colors differently than humans.

Good on you for actually trying this exercise without peppering your post with quips and snipes like many others.

Now, here is why you are wrong about the statement "Grass is green." The objective truth of this statement is contingent on what is meant by "green". Green is a color, and color is nothing but a virtual property of wavelengths that are perceived. The statement is not a statement that can be evaluated objectively, so this is not a valid example.

Originally Posted By: patH

Another quote about "objective truths" I like is: "Believing in objectivity means believing that observations can be made without an observer."

That is not what "believing in objectivity" means. This quote is off the mark. Further, one doesn't "believe" in objective truths, one simply acknowledges that they exist.
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305537 - 07/22/14 05:41 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 601
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Jesus, it's like some of you people have never done homework or research or any other kind of intellectual endeavor in your whole life. Don't expect to be spoonfed everything. Laziness is just one of many paths to ignorance.
Translation: You got nothing.
I am not surprised.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

Top
#2305540 - 07/22/14 05:50 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 601
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Now, here is why you are wrong about the statement "Grass is green." The objective truth of this statement is contingent on what is meant by "green". Green is a color, and color is nothing but a virtual property of wavelengths that are perceived. The statement is not a statement that can be evaluated objectively, so this is not a valid example.

You got the point: No objective truths exist.
Especially not in the world of piano playing, when it comes to evaluate "good" or "bad" piano playing. It's all subjective.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

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#2305543 - 07/22/14 06:00 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: patH]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
Originally Posted By: patH

No objective truths exist.

Yes they do, and they are abundant. The following is an objectively true statement (subject to intertial frame): The speed of light in a vacuum is 299,792,458 m/s

It's not "all subjective"; many things are subjective, but many things aren't.


Edited by Atrys (07/22/14 06:00 PM)
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
#2305544 - 07/22/14 06:03 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Atrys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 990
_________________________
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson

Top
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