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#2304572 - 07/20/14 10:02 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: argerichfan]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: carey

Generally speaking, there are all kinds of self righteous fools in the world. Objectivity, science and factual analysis are fine as long as they are tempered with tolerance and compassion.

Interesting that Chopin wrote this about Liszt:

Liszt is playing my etudes, and transporting me outside of my respectable thoughts. I should like to steal from him the way to play my own etudes.

I do wonder if Chopin might have said that about Ashkenazy's Melodiya recording also.


It's funny that this quote has been used to describe that Chopin enjoyed Liszt's playing of his studies. And yet, it really sounds like an indirect way of saying that Liszt played like crap (but was considered rude to state such things so bluntly.)

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#2304595 - 07/20/14 11:33 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6373
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: carey

Generally speaking, there are all kinds of self righteous fools in the world. Objectivity, science and factual analysis are fine as long as they are tempered with tolerance and compassion.

Interesting that Chopin wrote this about Liszt:

Liszt is playing my etudes, and transporting me outside of my respectable thoughts. I should like to steal from him the way to play my own etudes.

I do wonder if Chopin might have said that about Ashkenazy's Melodiya recording also.
It's funny that this quote has been used to describe that Chopin enjoyed Liszt's playing of his studies. And yet, it really sounds like an indirect way of saying that Liszt played like crap (but was considered rude to state such things so bluntly.)
Or perhaps the true meaning of Chopin's statement simply got lost in translation. grin


Edited by carey (07/20/14 11:33 PM)
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#2304608 - 07/20/14 11:55 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: carey]
Parks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/14
Posts: 441
Loc: Northern CA
Originally Posted By: carey
Or perhaps the true meaning of Chopin's statement simply got lost in translation. grin

Yeah, it sounds way better in Polish.
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"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
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#2304610 - 07/21/14 12:02 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Atrys]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6373
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: carey

Perhaps "technique" isn't everything.
Agree 100%; what makes a musical legend is musical achievement, I only mean to speak strictly about technical facility.
thumb
Originally Posted By: Atrys
Originally Posted By: carey
Objectivity, science and factual analysis are fine as long as they are tempered with tolerance and compassion.
I see what you're saying, and agree on some level, but "tolerance" is not the right word. The problem mechanism I'm pointing at is the denial of truth, which is a disservice to education.

And taking this to the extreme....... grin

“One man's gospel truth is another man's blasphemous lie. The dangerous thing about people is the way we'll try to kill anyone whose truth doesn't agree with ours.” Mira Grant


Edited by carey (07/21/14 12:11 AM)
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#2304611 - 07/21/14 12:11 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6373
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique. However, they didn't sound bad at all (though I strongly disagree.)

Faulty - If you can/will acknowledge that this is YOUR OPINION - and not a statement of fact - you'll probably do fine here. grin

How is it not my opinion? I am writing my own posts, am I not? (Yes, I am indeed.) Thus, it is implicitly acknowledged that it is my opinion on the matter. Further, it's already implicitly implied that these are not facts that can be verified (like the speed of gravity or the absorption of light by chlorophyll) because these are qualitative statements, not quantitative ones.
And about writing, when making an argument, it is unnecessary to constantly state, "my opinion". It's already understood it's an opinion. This is what is taught in writing classes - or has writing instruction dropped so low that people don't know how to write anymore? (Reading various forums suggests that this is the case, that many people don't know how to write to communicate clearly.)

I'm simply suggesting that what may seem perfectly implicit to you may not be quite as implicit to others. smile
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#2304614 - 07/21/14 12:31 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6373
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: carey

Perhaps "technique" isn't everything. smile


That depends on how "technique" is defined. Often, when discussing technique, for the ease of communication, it must be separated from the discussion of music. Otherwise, it would be difficult to tease apart sound and movement and the audience will have a difficult time understanding. Thus, "technique isn't everything" is understood in the sense that it is different from sound. However, in practice, neither can be separated. And since technique is a precursor to playing, technique is, in fact, everything leading up to the actual production of sound.

Actually when I said "technique isn't everything" I was thinking about the unique ability of Rubinstein and Horowitz to communicate musical ideas (whether due to or in spite of their techniques), Beethoven's sheer genius and Liszt's skill as a composer. smile
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#2304617 - 07/21/14 12:48 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Parks]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Parks
Originally Posted By: carey
Or perhaps the true meaning of Chopin's statement simply got lost in translation. grin

Yeah, it sounds way better in Polish.


I'm pretty certain he wrote it in French.

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#2304618 - 07/21/14 12:49 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: carey]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: carey
I'm simply suggesting that what may seem perfectly implicit to you may not be quite as implicit to others. smile


So you're saying that I'm making a naive assumption that my audience is educated. blush
What a nice way to make an insult. grin

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#2304621 - 07/21/14 12:54 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: carey
I'm simply suggesting that what may seem perfectly implicit to you may not be quite as implicit to others. smile

So you're saying that I'm making a naive assumption that my audience is educated. blush
What a nice way to make an insult. grin

Notice the "seem."
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#2304627 - 07/21/14 01:15 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
outo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 729
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: Parks
Originally Posted By: carey
Or perhaps the true meaning of Chopin's statement simply got lost in translation. grin

Yeah, it sounds way better in Polish.


I'm pretty certain he wrote it in French.


He did, to Ferdinand Hiller. But I don't think we should make too many assumptions on his opinions based on that, since it was a joint letter from Chopin, Liszt and Franchomme, not a personal one...


Edited by outo (07/21/14 01:15 AM)

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#2304638 - 07/21/14 01:41 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Ferdinand Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/07
Posts: 943
Loc: California
A famous pianist (I'm not remembering who, exactly) was asked during an interview whether such and such a piece was difficult to play. He replied "There is no such thing as a difficult piece; either it's easy or it's impossible."

I take this to mean that unless one has a sense of ease and freedom while playing, it isn't really playing, and the piece is not truly mastered. To arrive at a state where a piece becomes easy might take days, months, or years depending on the piece and the contents of one's technical tool box at the beginning of study.

Assuming for the sake of argument that faulty_Damper's assertion (that adopting the correct set of motions particular to a passage is necessary and sufficient for technical mastery) is correct, the question arises: why, for most people, does it take so much time and effort to master certain passages?

I see three possibilities.
1) One never finds the correct motions, but with diligent work, achieves a semblance of a good performance using motions that are not optimum.

2) By trial and error experiment and the help of good luck, one learns to recognize the correct motions and trains oneself out of the habit of using the incorrect ones. Having a good teacher can speed up the process.

3) Certain motion combinations themselves must be acquired. In some cases the solution is (to use FD's analogy) as simple as realizing that running works better with swinging arms. Other cases require motions that must be learned, that are not naturally built in. Instead of running, it's more like intricate moves in ballet, to learn which one must first learn (laboriously and patiently) the five positions of feet, pliés, battements, etc., which no one is born knowing.*

*(Dancers here, please excuse any wrong terminology.)

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#2304648 - 07/21/14 02:19 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: outo]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6373
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: outo
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: Parks
Originally Posted By: carey
Or perhaps the true meaning of Chopin's statement simply got lost in translation. grin

Yeah, it sounds way better in Polish.

I'm pretty certain he wrote it in French.

He did, to Ferdinand Hiller. But I don't think we should make too many assumptions on his opinions based on that, since it was a joint letter from Chopin, Liszt and Franchomme, not a personal one...
It always helps to know the "context" in which something was written. One must assume that Chopin sincerely meant this as a compliment. grin
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#2304656 - 07/21/14 02:38 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
CarloPiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/21/12
Posts: 169
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
Originally Posted By: Francisco Scalco

Faulty was a very active member on the pianostreet forums, so I ask him -why did you come here? My guess is involuntarily... Anyways, welcome! You'll find that the general level of knowledge here is much higher than on your previous forum, so don't expect to be able to behave the same way you did before. You're having a fresh start! Think about this.


Excuse you, but you imply that I behaved badly on that forum when it was the other way around. Other members behaved badly (name calling, sexual innuendos, personal attacks, etc.). They didn't agree with me so they attacked me. What's amazing is that other members didn't even read my posts but assumed, because these harassing members accused me of being uncivil, that it was true. Kind of like those teenage girl rumors intended to damage reputations, no one checks to see if it's true; looking at who the finger is pointing to, not the person pointing the finger. It was the people pointing fingers who had the issues.

Anyway, yes, there seems to be a slightly higher level of maturity and knowledge here which is why I decided to post. But there are still the young ones who still need to learn the difference between what is said and who says it.


That's quite a victim point of view. I think the world will start to become better the day most people will start assuming the responsibility of their acts instead of justifying everything on other's reactions. I've been reading a few posts of you on Pianostreet and I think you may ask yourself sincerely if you really didn't anything that could annoy other people or wrote something that could offend somebody on that forum...

As other people said, you have the opportunity to make a fresh start...

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#2304670 - 07/21/14 03:32 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: CarloPiano]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: CarloPiano

That's quite a victim point of view. I think the world will start to become better the day most people will start assuming the responsibility of their acts instead of justifying everything on other's reactions. I've been reading a few posts of you on Pianostreet and I think you may ask yourself sincerely if you really didn't anything that could annoy other people or wrote something that could offend somebody on that forum...

As other people said, you have the opportunity to make a fresh start...

You should read everything in context, which means others' posts. You'll notice I addressed the topics very directly, never pussyfooting around the issue. The harassment went on for several months so I doubt you even had a glimpse of the extent of it. You'll also note that I never (with two exceptions, one that got me banned) retaliated. I was a member for over 10 years and it was only in the past several months that this harassment occurred. The moment I mentioned Horowitz et al had bad technique and weren't very good musicians did the barrage of insults, personal attacks, etc. commence. They were offended that their idols were being criticized so they attacked me. And how did they justify the name calling? They didn't like my tone, those were famous virtuosos, etc. Bwahahaha. ha I don't like sagging pants or skinny jeans, but I don't call them "stupid" if they choose to wear them.

However, I will concede that I'm aware of how sensitive some people are. In order to express an idea clearly, it must be said in a way that eliminates any misunderstandings. I said what I said knowing that certain people (not all) would be offended by my directness, probably because they've never heard any different. My purpose was not to offend, but offer genuine criticism to help open their minds to new ideas, especially considering how so many of them were still struggling with basic issues. Sometimes, in order to get people to brush their teeth (and tongue) you have to tell them the truth, that their breath stinks. Wouldn't you want to be told your breath stinks? I'm glad I was. I'm now confident that my breath smells like a pot of potpourri. grin

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#2304683 - 07/21/14 05:05 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5276
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper

Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique.

Who, in your opinion, has good technique?
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2304685 - 07/21/14 05:43 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: bennevis]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper

Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique.

Who, in your opinion, has good technique?

I can't name a single famous pianist who has it all, and I'm ignoring musicianship to make this simple, and focussing only on movements. I've yet to see a single pianist use all available movements to facilitate playing.

It may be easier to specifically cite certain pianists in certain parts of performance that they use the optimum combination of movements, like I did with Louis Lortie's use of the wrist to align the fingers. However, his left hand apparatus, which only plays octaves, is poor (he presses down unnecessarily as well as using unnecessary legato fingering [the pedal makes legato fingering unnecessary.])

It may also be easy just to list pianists who typically have limited movements. Y*** W***, H*****tz, R*******n, L*** L***, Y**** L*, R*******ff, S***** H****, L**** L*****, M***-A**** H******.... etc. Note that these pianists just use limited movements, but some are much more limited than others. Of the list, the last has the least limited movements, which is probably why he can play such a vast repertoire including rather difficult ones. He is most limited when he plays fast runs, in which he articulates his fingers without aligning them. This may be the reason why he can't play melodies expressively (crescendo/decrescendo) as his performances are often criticized on this point as being dull, flat, and unexpressive.

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#2304692 - 07/21/14 06:01 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5276
OK, just to see if you have anything positive to say about somebody for a change, how about the pianists you haven't got on your list (who all have poor technique, but amazingly, are all considered among the greatest virtuosi): Maurizio Pollini, Krystian Zimerman, Grigory Sokolov, Arcadi Volodos, Evgeny Kissin, Mikhail Pletnev, Denis Matsuev, Daniil Trifonov, Boris Berezovsky.....

And also, how about other deceased greats like Sviatoslav Richter, Emil Gilels, György Cziffra, Van Cliburn?
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2304732 - 07/21/14 08:49 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Morodiene Online   content
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Posts: 12049
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
It's easy to criticize, so it comes down to this: what can you do that is different? Presumably if you are offering criticism that no one does this with regularity, then is it really something to worry about? I don't think anyone here considers themselves anywhere near the ability of those pianists mentioned, nor have I ever heard anyone say they were perfect. What they have to offer is a musical experience for the listener. Some are more expressive than others, some are more technical than others, but they are all talented and deserve to be considered "great" or "good" at what they do.

Now your comments about movements still sounds to me like saying something obvious. The goal when learning a piece is to make it easy. - to become efficient with what you're doing so that you can get beyond the "how" and get into the "what" you are trying to say through your music. That, I think, most people would agree is the goal - at least in the classical music genre.

So two things about what I believe you are saying:
1) Perfection will never be achieved in any sense because we are flawed human beings, but it is a worthy goal to do your best and to continue to improve over a lifetime
2) In the end, all that really matters is if you can move people. Music is communication to the soul, and if you can do that effectively, the rest is secondary.

I think some of the famous pianists mentioned in this thread aren't very effective in moving, and some are more expressive. Ask someone else and they'll tell you who moves them the most, and it will be different from my list.

It is worthwhile to try and do one's own best and to study what other pianists are doing and learn from them - both what they do well and what they fail at - but it crosses a line if you expect from them something impossible and something that you yourself are not able to achieve. I can criticize singers and identify exactly what is wrong with their technique after hearing only a few notes, but I know that you can find good recordings of Caruso, Tebaldi, Callas, and terrible ones. When they were good, they were awesome - flawed, but awesome - and those moments were worth listening for. It's not idol worship, it's a healthy respect. I think that kind of respect goes a long way toward convincing others if you have criticisms to share that can benefit others, but saying large sweeping statements along the lines of "everyone sucks and you've been duped into thinking they were great" doesn't go very far. IMO. smile


Edited by Morodiene (07/21/14 08:55 AM)
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#2304768 - 07/21/14 10:14 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
MikeN Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 579
Loc: Ohio
Why look at the cup as half empty instead of half full? Certainly we do the best with what we have. Some have more, some less.


Edited by MikeN (07/21/14 11:39 AM)

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#2304800 - 07/21/14 11:08 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Saranoya Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/13
Posts: 632
Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: Faulty_Damper
I've yet to see a single pianist use all available movements to facilitate playing.


If none of them use all available movements, perhaps there's a reason for that. Perhaps people choose, consciously or unconsciously, to limit their repertoire to those movements that are (a) within their physical limits, and (b) comfortable to them. If they do in fact choose limit their movements in this way, but they still sound good, then to me, there is no problem. That's because I am of the opinion that the ultimate goal for a concert pianist is not to have "perfect technique" (for whatever is your definition of "perfect"), but to perform beautifully (for whatever is your definition of "beautifully").

Of course, in order to play the piano beautifully, one needs a certain level of technical proficiency. So anyone who wishes to become a good pianist should pursue "good technique". But in doing so, they are necessarily going to have to work within whatever range of movement their body will allow them to comfortably execute. For example: I can comfortably span distances larger than a ninth with one hand. My piano teacher cannot. Of the two of us, guess who's the better pianist.

Most people will naturally gravitate towards doing certain things a certain way, and for the most part, that's OK. There are, for instance, many different ways to handle the fingering on any given Bach fugue. Some of them are objectively better than others, but some are simply an acknowledgement of the way a given person's body physically functions.

That doesn't mean, of course, that if a pianist is having trouble mastering a specific skill or a specific musical passage, he or she can't or shouldn't look for ways to solve that problem. Perhaps the solution will be the introduction of a new physical movement. Perhaps it will be something else. But when you, Faulty_Damper, see a pianist who "sits too low" in your opinion, and yet the music coming out sounds good regardless, then the problem may not be with the way that person chooses to sit. The problem may be that *you* think (s)he needs to sit differently, when in fact perhaps (s)he's tried that and concluded that sitting low just works better for him (or her).

When I was in primary school, I had a classmate with no arms. He could draw very beautifully. He was better than any of us on the Nintendo game console. He could tie shoelaces faster than I ever saw anyone else do it, before or since. How did he accomplish those things? He used his legs and feet in ways that none of us can.

You may argue that if this guy had had hands, and if he had been able to use a pencil the way most of us are taught to use it, he may have been even better at drawing beautiful pictures. But the point is that he *didn't* have hands, and he still drew very beautifully.

Other people's physical limitations may not be quite that obvious, but the idea remains the same. All of the pianists you listed have a limited repertoire of movements. That's either because they lack the physical ability to perform certain movements, or because they choose not to deploy those movements -- perhaps there are others that work better for them. Either way, they all end up sounding better than the vast majority of people in the world who have ever tried their hand at playing the piano. So just because, for one reason or another, they choose to limit their repertoire of movements, doesn't mean they are bad pianists.


Edited by Saranoya (07/21/14 12:07 PM)
Edit Reason: edited for clarity

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#2304805 - 07/21/14 11:27 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Morodiene]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6373
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
1) Perfection will never be achieved in any sense because we are flawed human beings, but it is a worthy goal to do your best and to continue to improve over a lifetime
2) In the end, all that really matters is if you can move people. Music is communication to the soul, and if you can do that effectively, the rest is secondary.


thumb thumb thumb thumb thumb thumb
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#2304808 - 07/21/14 11:32 AM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6373
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper
However, I will concede that I'm aware of how sensitive some people are. In order to express an idea clearly, it must be said in a way that eliminates any misunderstandings. I said what I said knowing that certain people (not all) would be offended by my directness, probably because they've never heard any different. My purpose was not to offend, but offer genuine criticism to help open their minds to new ideas, especially considering how so many of them were still struggling with basic issues. Sometimes, in order to get people to brush their teeth (and tongue) you have to tell them the truth, that their breath stinks. Wouldn't you want to be told your breath stinks? I'm glad I was. I'm now confident that my breath smells like a pot of potpourri. grin

That's wonderful !! But what about your piano technique?? laugh


Edited by carey (07/21/14 11:33 AM)
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#2304811 - 07/21/14 12:09 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Hakki Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2667
Carey, no need to care for or try to convince such a poster.

faulty is one of those that quickly gets into my ignore list. He/she is just a troll that tries to get some attention.
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#2304824 - 07/21/14 12:50 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: bennevis]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: bennevis
OK, just to see if you have anything positive to say about somebody for a change, how about the pianists you haven't got on your list (who all have poor technique, but amazingly, are all considered among the greatest virtuosi): Maurizio Pollini, Krystian Zimerman, Grigory Sokolov, Arcadi Volodos, Evgeny Kissin, Mikhail Pletnev, Denis Matsuev, Daniil Trifonov, Boris Berezovsky.....

And also, how about other deceased greats like Sviatoslav Richter, Emil Gilels, György Cziffra, Van Cliburn?


I didn't name all of those because the list would have been too long and the response would have been the same. Many of the ones you listed have similar movement repertoire and a few of them use a lot of unnecessary force, some much more than others (Berezovsky, Pletnev, Kissin, Richter, etc.) However, of those listed, Volodos has excellent musicianship; he hears especially well when it gets intense. The reason is due to his choice of movements when it gets fast and loud because it's more efficient. You can't put him next to the others in terms of musicianship because when it gets fast and loud, they others get tense and sloppy.

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#2304832 - 07/21/14 01:06 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Morodiene]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
It's easy to criticize, so it comes down to this: what can you do that is different? Presumably if you are offering criticism that no one does this with regularity, then is it really something to worry about? I don't think anyone here considers themselves anywhere near the ability of those pianists mentioned, nor have I ever heard anyone say they were perfect. What they have to offer is a musical experience for the listener. Some are more expressive than others, some are more technical than others, but they are all talented and deserve to be considered "great" or "good" at what they do.

If you were a teacher, would you want your students to be held back by limited movements? Or would you want them to be free of technical constraints so that they can focus and express the music? Technique is simply a means to an end, that end being musical expression. I once had a rather famous pianist as a teacher who didn't want his students to play better than he.

Quote:
Now your comments about movements still sounds to me like saying something obvious.

It sounds obvious, but very few people actually realize this in their practice. There's a huge difference between what is said and how we act.

Quote:
So two things about what I believe you are saying:
1) Perfection will never be achieved in any sense because we are flawed human beings, but it is a worthy goal to do your best and to continue to improve over a lifetime
2) In the end, all that really matters is if you can move people. Music is communication to the soul, and if you can do that effectively, the rest is secondary.


I'm not saying any of those things because it's too abstract. I'm speaking very concretely. Perfection (technique-wise) here defined as simply using the combination of movements necessary to achieve the desired sound using the least amount of energy. To this end, it's very possible for perfection to be achieved because there are only a few movements that the body is capable. The difficulty is in the combination of movements that are not incorporated.

Quote:
I think that kind of respect goes a long way toward convincing others if you have criticisms to share that can benefit others, but saying large sweeping statements along the lines of "everyone sucks and you've been duped into thinking they were great" doesn't go very far

There is a big difference between admiring their musicianship and assuming their technique is equally flawless. You can sound great without having to play great. Like driving an F1 race car or a Ferrari, the F1 race car will lap the Ferrari even though both can go +200mph. Which looks better doing it? That's a qualitative question, not a quantitative one. Here, I'm addressing the quantitative aspect of technique which can be observed. Do you keep your wrist still while playing a C major scale or is the wrist actively moving to align each finger? One is easier (energy-wise) than the other, though that one requires greater coordination and awareness of bodily kinesthetics.

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#2304835 - 07/21/14 01:13 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: carey]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: carey

That's wonderful !! But what about your piano technique?? laugh

I've refused to do so before but maybe I'll actually post a recording (when I make one) here (in the audition room). I've found that it's the fastest way people shut up. The downside, and this is part of the reason why I didn't want to post, is that people suddenly stop replying. My goal is not to shut people up. It's to open up their minds to possibilities they've never considered and hopefully, by learning new ways, they improve.

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#2304836 - 07/21/14 01:15 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: faulty_Damper]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5276
Originally Posted By: faulty_Damper

I didn't name all of those because the list would have been too long and the response would have been the same. Many of the ones you listed have similar movement repertoire and a few of them use a lot of unnecessary force, some much more than others (Berezovsky, Pletnev, Kissin, Richter, etc.) However, of those listed, Volodos has excellent musicianship; he hears especially well when it gets intense. The reason is due to his choice of movements when it gets fast and loud because it's more efficient. You can't put him next to the others in terms of musicianship because when it gets fast and loud, they others get tense and sloppy.

In other words, only Volodos, among the virtuosi listed (which just about covers every living classical pianist with a big reputation, other than those you've already summarily dismissed as totally incompetent), comes anywhere near your extraordinarily high, exalted, and exacting standards...... thumb.

Have you thought of setting up your own piano school, so that you can pass on the benefit of your (no doubt) incredibly profound and stupendous acumen to budding virtuosi, who are still malleable enough to be moulded to your will? (All established virtuosi, of course, are too far gone, and already no-hopers, and need not even dream of applying.....).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2304837 - 07/21/14 01:17 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: rov]
Hakki Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2667
To the OP rov:

I see that you have not made a second post after starting this thread.

If you think that is because you felt that your thread has been hijacked, then you might better start another thread, this time with a video of you playing this etude.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2304840 - 07/21/14 01:22 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: Saranoya]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Saranoya

If none of them use all available movements, perhaps there's a reason for that. Perhaps people choose, consciously or unconsciously, to limit their repertoire to those movements that are (a) within their physical limits, and (b) comfortable to them. If they do in fact choose limit their movements in this way, but they still sound good, then to me, there is no problem. That's because I am of the opinion that the ultimate goal for a concert pianist is not to have "perfect technique" (for whatever is your definition of "perfect"), but to perform beautifully (for whatever is your definition of "beautifully").


The reason is actually much simpler. There are some movement combinations that aren't obvious at all because you can use other movements to accomplish the same task. For example:
1) The apparatus going straight down vs. going at a down and slightly forward. Moving forward to depress the keys sounds counter-intuitive. Thus, this movement is never discovered but is incredibly energy-efficient.
2) Dropping the wrist and rotating the forearm to play the 5, vs. articulating only the 5. The 5 is the shortest finger, thus needs to articulate more to depress the keys. However, by dropping the hand so that it's lower, the 5 will move about the same as the other fingers, eliminating that awkwardness.

And lastly, making beautiful music is always the goal. But you can't do that without technique. If you're struggling with your own body to produce a sound, that's not good technique.

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#2304845 - 07/21/14 01:30 PM Re: Play chopin étude op 10 no 1 at 104 bpm in a week [Re: bennevis]
faulty_Damper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: bennevis

In other words, only Volodos, among the virtuosi listed (which just about covers every living classical pianist with a big reputation, other than those you've already summarily dismissed as totally incompetent), comes anywhere near your extraordinarily high, exalted, and exacting standards...... thumb.


I only mentioned him because of his musicianship which is the result of technical control. [Also, in order to make a good argument, never refer to mass
opinion. It makes you seem less resolute in your own opinion when you have to digress to using others as a shield. In other words, don't hide behind what other people say; think for yourself.]

Quote:
Have you thought of setting up your own piano school, so that you can pass on the benefit of your (no doubt) incredibly profound and stupendous acumen to budding virtuosi, who are still malleable enough to be moulded to your will? (All established virtuosi, of course, are too far gone, and already no-hopers, and need not even dream of applying.....).

Excusing your sarcasm, I'll address your question seriously.

I plan on teaching my children how to play the piano but only if they want to learn. If they don't, then I won't. Learning to use all available movements isn't some trade secret. In fact, everyone probably uses all of those movements on a daily basis. But for some reason, the moment they sit at the piano, the act like they're in straight jacket.

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