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#2304233 - 07/19/14 11:46 PM Fascinating Restoration Video
Paul678 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 913
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKVgv2IUOro

Great video!

I was surprised to see the bridge pin holes
were drilled by hand, but I suppose the angle
is not that critical, right?

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#2304260 - 07/20/14 02:14 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1534
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Bridge pin lean angle determines string offset and plays a key roll in string termination. It is easy to elongate the holes with hand drilling making it possible to have a bit looser fit. False beats can happen with termination mistakes.
Bridge pins also determine string spacing.
Also as the bridge work is in your face when lid is open, inconsistencies are easy to pick out with the eye.
I would say that precision bridge work is very important.
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#2304272 - 07/20/14 04:01 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Gene Nelson]
Paul678 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 913
Originally Posted By: Gene Nelson
Bridge pin lean angle determines string offset and plays a key roll in string termination. It is easy to elongate the holes with hand drilling making it possible to have a bit looser fit. False beats can happen with termination mistakes.
Bridge pins also determine string spacing.
Also as the bridge work is in your face when lid is open, inconsistencies are easy to pick out with the eye.
I would say that precision bridge work is very important.


Ok, so did I see that correctly?

Because unlike the tuning pin holes, which were
obviously drilled out at the correct angle with
a drill press, it looked like the bridge pin holes
were drilled out with a hand-held drill, unless
I saw it wrong....

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#2304322 - 07/20/14 08:57 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1534
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Looked like hand drilling to me too
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#2304346 - 07/20/14 10:52 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19649
Loc: New York City
Very nice video, but why not add a lot more explanation either orally or in print for those that are not technicians or are not too familiar with the process?

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#2304371 - 07/20/14 11:33 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: Paul678
I was surprised to see the bridge pin holes were drilled by hand, but I suppose the angle is not that critical, right?
They are indeed very important, yet are often drilled with a hand-held power tool like that. Some rebuilders/manufacturers affix a gauge to the back of the tool so that they can better guesstimate the angle of attack. Small differences in the angles affect the side bearing, which in turn has implications on the tune-ability of the piano (i.e., the higher the side bearing, the more rendering is necessary during the tuning to ensure stability).
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2304379 - 07/20/14 11:58 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 751
Loc: shirley, MA
In trying to assure trebles have as little falseness as possible, I've taken to being anal regarding all terminations. After several iterations, I now have a drill set up which guides a Foredom tool, running quite slow, in multiple "pecks" for consistency of angle and trueness of the hole. Its actually quite easy to drill a wandering hole with many small drill setups...especially by hand.

I drill (and notch) on the bench, and use a dedicated drill setup with linear bearings, layout the bridge pin offsets with a Bridgeport laid out starting hole jig. Cap is an epoxy saturated lamination of hard maple veneer which has to be notched on a notching machine.

I find the treble bridge pin drilling to be more difficult to pull off well than one might think, and hence the increased attention to this aspect of the work. Tenor and bass drilling, not as picky, but I still do it with the machine.

Also experimenting with Ed Mcmorrow's # 6 pins through much of the long bridge, quite tightly spaced in the treble = 10mm for and aft pins.

Jim Ialeggio


Edited by jim ialeggio (07/20/14 11:59 AM)
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304386 - 07/20/14 12:22 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Speaking of string falseness: beyond that which is created by tapping down on the speaking length at the bridge, the way those wires were installed actually ensures more falseness in the stings (i.e., one side was a 1/4 turn, and the other a 1/2 turn).

However, the way they trimmed the hammer shanks from the hammers was nicely thought out!
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2304389 - 07/20/14 12:27 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: A454.7]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: A443
Originally Posted By: Paul678
I was surprised to see the bridge pin holes were drilled by hand, but I suppose the angle is not that critical, right?
They are indeed very important, yet are often drilled with a hand-held power tool like that. Some rebuilders/manufacturers affix a gauge to the back of the tool so that they can better guesstimate the angle of attack. Small differences in the angles affect the side bearing, which in turn has implications on the tune-ability of the piano (i.e., the higher the side bearing, the more rendering is necessary during the tuning to ensure stability).


Yes a support to guide the drill is certainly better, but with a double pointing of the hole (one vertical to locate it, then anothe slightly angled) you can have your drill correctly driven where you want it (not slipping on the surface)

The same for pinblocks, they can be bored by hand.

I think that is the way it is learned, to even make the parts and elements of the piano with minimal hand tools.

factory setups may differ of course.

I recall working on the assembly of small verticals (the parts came from different places) we drilled all pinblocks by hand, and it was not that bad, with the help f visuial gauges and the pin bushings.
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#2304407 - 07/20/14 01:00 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2437
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Like in the video, I notch the bridge in the piano. But I protect the surface of the soundboard from errant chisel action by having some SB panel scraps that I keep in front of the chisel. I also don't want the nose bolts in there while I am doing that for the same reason.

I could never drill a decent bridge with a hand held electric drill like they are using. Too massive. I use my air compressor to drive a very light weight drill modified for speed control.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2304421 - 07/20/14 02:04 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: A454.7]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 751
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: A443
Speaking of string falseness...the way those wires were installed actually ensures more falseness in the stings (i.e., one side was a 1/4 turn, and the other a 1/2 turn).


443,

Have you done controlled test of this? On recalcitrant false strings, where I'm satisfied that the pin is okay, I've tried carefully restringing the note as you describe, but often get no improvement.

Curious as to your method, and success rate...falseness can be a real pain, and sometimes after much messing about, I have to accept defeat. Machine drilling has helped in this regard. I've also noticed on pianos which clearly have machine drilled/notched laminate bridges, there is consistently very little falseness...

Always interested in any tested perspective on this issue.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304425 - 07/20/14 02:07 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
I enjoyed the video. It's a bit different in being a totally visual capsule of the rebuilding process. Perfect for those who are not in the biz to watch when they are contemplating the engagement of a rebuilder.

As far as I can tell, this is a vintage S&S-C, however there is a shot (or maybe more) which indicates that not all of what is presented is of the same piano.

Can you spot it?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2304431 - 07/20/14 02:32 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2437
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
There are many different pianos include in the video. I see M&H and Steinway both. Several different models also.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2304446 - 07/20/14 02:55 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
gynnis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/16/14
Posts: 253
Loc: Florida, Connecticut
One of the shots looks like a Mason Hamlin. Surprised by the amount of hand drilling.
_________________________
Seiler 206, Chickering 145, Estey 2 manual reed organ, Fudge clavichord, Zuckerman single harpsichord, Technics P-30, Roland RD-100.

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#2304453 - 07/20/14 03:09 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
I think that the Tension Resonator was a marvelous S&S achievement!

confused - crazy - wink
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2304461 - 07/20/14 03:41 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 221
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Great video!!

The background music not that great.



HW
_________________________
.

"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu

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#2304466 - 07/20/14 03:57 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 141
Loc: New Hampshire
I think that one thing that has been left out of the discussion is how many factories have over many years used small electric hand drills such as we see in the pictures on the video. I remember seeing it done this way in the Sohmer factory, If memory serves me, Steinway was also doing it by hand 15 or 20 years ago. This method is very commonly used by rebuilders, including me (for 30 years or more). I have made drilling jigs and have not found one yet that truly suited me. If they are too large and heavy, they are unwieldly. I've drilled them on a drill press, and moving the bridge itself can be awkward. A pneumatic drill is nice for its small size, but I have found the air hose to be destabilizing because it tends to make the unit top heavy and wants to bear to one side or another. I think any angle jig that we might use needs to allow the entire set up to be small and light, because it is easier to control.

Jim, you build great jigs - can you post a picture of yours?

Another thing that has not been mentioned is how much flex there is in drill bits. If you are slightly off center to the hole index, the bit will find the hole, but the drill bit will flex and change the angle, with or without a guide. And by the way, that happens with tuning pin drills also, for the same reason. I did notice in the video that when he was drilling the pinblock in the piano, when he pressed the drill bit into the block as he was drilling, that I could see that his platform was flexing downward. This would change and increase the angle throughout the stroke. Whether that affects the tightness of the pinblock and consistency of torque I cannot say.

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2304475 - 07/20/14 04:34 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Herr Weiss]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Herr Weiss

The background music not that great.

The best thing about the background music was that it is totally dismissible. If it were a piano recording, I would have been wondering about the piano and pianist and not concentrating on the vid.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2304476 - 07/20/14 04:35 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 751
Loc: shirley, MA
Hey there Will,

hmmm...I usually document this kind of thing...but I just checked the SD card and there's nothing there. I'll see if I can quickly rig the jig up a get a shot. I also now have a self feed drill head mounted on a steel pneumatically floated frame, for in the piano block and plate drilling, but I was saving that for a separate thread when I had some free time...huhh...

I completely agree about the way the bit wanders in a non guided hole. The wander follows the rotation of the bit. Its a real pain, though I don't think most folks are aware its happening. The smaller the bit, the worse it is. Same with the pin block drilling. If the bit is squealing, the bit ain't traveling straight in a straight hole.

None of this chat should be construed to be yanking on the folks in the video...its a nice job. My interest is in trading ideas with topics inspired by the video. I'll see if I can get some pics tonight.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304489 - 07/20/14 05:11 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: WilliamTruitt]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: WilliamTruitt
I think that one thing that has been left out of the discussion is how many factories have over many years used small electric hand drills such as we see in the pictures on the video. I remember seeing it done this way in the Sohmer factory, If memory serves me, Steinway was also doing it by hand 15 or 20 years ago. This method is very commonly used by rebuilders, including me (for 30 years or more). I have made drilling jigs and have not found one yet that truly suited me. If they are too large and heavy, they are unwieldly. I've drilled them on a drill press, and moving the bridge itself can be awkward. A pneumatic drill is nice for its small size, but I have found the air hose to be destabilizing because it tends to make the unit top heavy and wants to bear to one side or another. I think any angle jig that we might use needs to allow the entire set up to be small and light, because it is easier to control.

Jim, you build great jigs - can you post a picture of yours?

Another thing that has not been mentioned is how much flex there is in drill bits. If you are slightly off center to the hole index, the bit will find the hole, but the drill bit will flex and change the angle, with or without a guide. And by the way, that happens with tuning pin drills also, for the same reason. I did notice in the video that when he was drilling the pinblock in the piano, when he pressed the drill bit into the block as he was drilling, that I could see that his platform was flexing downward. This would change and increase the angle throughout the stroke. Whether that affects the tightness of the pinblock and consistency of torque I cannot say.

Will


Will I gave you the solution above. Very efficient (and indispensable)

Regards
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2304536 - 07/20/14 08:14 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1858
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Very nice. Has to be the fastest fitting of block to plate flange in history. Must have blinked. wink
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2304558 - 07/20/14 09:30 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 751
Loc: shirley, MA
Here you go Will,


[img:center][/img]

[img:center][/img]
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304574 - 07/20/14 10:18 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1534
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Nice jig Jim

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#2304581 - 07/20/14 10:40 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: jim ialeggio]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: A443
Speaking of string falseness...the way those wires were installed actually ensures more falseness in the stings (i.e., one side was a 1/4 turn, and the other a 1/2 turn).
Have you done controlled test of this? On recalcitrant false strings, where I'm satisfied that the pin is okay, I've tried carefully restringing the note as you describe, but often get no improvement.

Curious as to your method, and success rate...falseness can be a real pain, and sometimes after much messing about, I have to accept defeat. Machine drilling has helped in this regard. I've also noticed on pianos which clearly have machine drilled/notched laminate bridges, there is consistently very little falseness...
Yes: we did controlled tests, first to cause falseness, then to prevent it from happening. Any banging/bending on the wire will introduce falseness--unfortunately, this includes levelling the strings.

It stands to reason that it is best not to have to do very much string levelling, if at all possible. The best way to approach that objective is to ensure that the strings are installed following the same path, with no twists and turns. I recommend bending the wire so both sides follow the same natural curvature (i.e., a half circle), installing it in the piano so that the ends point towards the plate (i.e., and upside-down U), and then making the beckets/coils on the left side of the strings (i.e, NOT with the natural downwards curvature of the wire).

Resist the temptation to bang and yank on things, and the problem will go away...until the wire degrades naturally with age.

That procedure produces a very clean tone, with no/minimal falseness, and a very consistent string level.
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2304587 - 07/20/14 11:13 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 751
Loc: shirley, MA
443,

Interesting. I'm having trouble seeing what you are recommending from the words...

Maybe a pic??? or did you have a pic on that thread you started a while ago?

Let me try to rephrase...For the treble, the hitch shares 2 notes. Wire taken off the coil has a curvature which resembles a half circle. Bend that half-circle around a pin and you now have 2 half-circles facing in opposite directions, somewhat along the plane of the strings, and somewhat up or down depending on how you orient it on the hitch. I let the curve go up, as its easier to handle when coiling, and coil on the right side of the pins, mainly going with the string's opinion of where it wants to go given its natural curvature.

You are saying turn the orientation down. I can see how this might change the orientation of the natural curvature as it goes over the capo, tending to straighten out the natural curvature. What does the making the becket from the left side accomplish?

Interesting.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304592 - 07/20/14 11:25 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 751
Loc: shirley, MA
443,

I found that thread and pic, but the pic shows the wire curving up not down??? is the description off or the pic not what you mean?



JI
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304626 - 07/21/14 01:07 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
I'll bend some wire in sequence and take some pictures, so that the progression makes more sense...

However, for now:
I start with a O [string shape] and bend it so it makes two CC [string shapes] going in the same exact direction (i.e., installed facing downwards). The bend to the Left--instead of with the natural curvature of the wire downwards--is to prevent the resultant 1/4 twist necessary to then put the becket into the tuning pin! These bends are what helps force the wires run straight/parallel throughout the entire length of the string, in the same way, on both string segments.

I used to install with the CC segments facing upwards--simply because it was convenient. But, recently I reconsidered that installing it facing downwards means that it could also potentially help with the prevention of an earlier onset of capo buzzing (i.e., the wire along the capo bend naturally resists that direction of bend and produces a more of a U vs. V shape with the inversion of the wire's natural curvature).
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2304684 - 07/21/14 05:41 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 141
Loc: New Hampshire
To Jim - thanks for your pictures. As usual, an elegant and simple jig from you. Why would I expect any different?

I built a very similar jig to this a couple of years ago, based on pictures of one that I had seen on Michael Spreeman's website for Ravenscroft pianos, and emailed Michael and asked some questions. My slider and track was a drawer slide (which runs on ball bearings. I was using a small air grinder as my drill.)

The difference between mine and yours was that I was using mine to drill in the piano. It was just too big and awkward and slow to feel all that comfortable using it again.

What you have done is to build a dedicated drill press for drilling outside the piano. Since you are doing R,C, & S boards, it is ideal for the task.

Did you add a depth stop to your jig? I didn't see one.

Thanks for sharing,

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2304690 - 07/21/14 05:58 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 141
Loc: New Hampshire
And Jim - more explanation on your "multiple pecks" method, if you please.

And your layout efforts too.

I have struggled to rid my rebuilds of falseness also. I have come to believe that the quality of the wire itself has been part of the problem, particularly as the wire sizes get much smaller in the high treble.

Since I have been using Paulello wire in the various types throughout the entire piano, the unisons are VERY clean. This has been noticed and remarked on by others who have heard the pianos. The wire is so good it makes you want to do your best bridge work.

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2304694 - 07/21/14 06:30 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 141
Loc: New Hampshire
Isaac, could you please explain more fully your "double pointing"? I am having trouble envisioning what you are talking about.

Thanks,

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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