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#2304703 - 07/21/14 07:05 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: WilliamTruitt]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Hello, I believe it is necessary, jig or no.

A first marquing with a pointed punch or the tool with 3points to locate the pins hole (sold by Renner for instance, a set with 2points, 3points, different spacings)

So, that tool is used vertically.

Then with a single point punch a tap is done with the pin orientation, so the conical hole is well oriented and the drill does not slip.

Regards
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#2304712 - 07/21/14 07:49 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: WilliamTruitt]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: WilliamTruitt
And Jim - more explanation on your "multiple pecks" method, if you please.


Pecking is the machinist lingo for plunging and retracting the bit several times per hole to clear the bit. One can't peck a precise hole by hand, or at least I can't...each time in, the angle changes and the top of the hole, which is the important part, becomes oblong.

The technique I was taught to avoid pecking, was to run the bit wildly fast to clear chips, but that just burns bits if you feed one hole too slowly. Then subsequent holes with the burnt bit, before you realized it was burnt and then didn't have another one anyway, means the rest of the holes change size from previous to the burn. With this jig, the slowed down rotation and the pecking, there is no burning, and the consistency of the pin fit was way beyond what I was able to do before.

Drilling this way is slower than what I've seen guys do free-hand, but clarity up here in the treble is so important to me, time spent here, in my opinion, is well spent.

My first version of this jig used a drawer slide as well, but it was a miserable failure. The slide has way too much slop and actually accentuated the drill bit wander as it entered the hole. The linear bearing I used is by Igus.com located in RI.

I'll take a pic of my layout tools

Glad to hear you are struggling with falseness too...well not glad, but misery loves company. I have not used the Paullelo past the 4th octave yet, but may give it a try as well. I use it throughout the wraps and nickel plated up through the mid-tenor so far.

Oh, and regrading the depth stop, no I tried it and didn't like it. I just flag the bit and drill a bit deeper than I will be setting the pin. The reasoning here is Nossaman's, ie that the pin is going to migrate up and down anyway, so bottoming the pin in the hole seems to be a complication that is not worth the effort, at least in my current thinking.

Jim Ialeggio


Edited by jim ialeggio (07/21/14 08:23 AM)
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304735 - 07/21/14 08:53 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
Isaac, that is the way I have been doing it. I thought you meant something else.

Jim, I am a bit confused by the pecking method you describe as pertains to your jig. Your jig looks like it would have to be hand fed unless I am missing something, but you say that hand feeding is not accurate enough. Or do you mean that you can handfeed your jig into the cap accurately enough to peck properly?

I too have burnt bits and then they clog, running at too high speeds. What speed is your Foredom running at approximately?

My drawer slide guide also suffers from slop in the bearing track when pressure is put on it.

I agree that the shape and consistency of size of the entrance for the bridge pin hole is very important. And I think the hardness of the capping surface is very important too. I too have been using maple laminated caps (with Unibond 800 as the glue). Since it is a laminate, there is no reason to not experiment with harder veneers as the top laminate or two. I have played with Ipe, but it is too difficult to work with. I want to get some Goiabao from Herzog veneers and experiment with that. I have been able to notch laminates by hand, using VERY sharp chisels.

I have not used the nickel yet - it is insanely expensive. But I have used the polished. I now have 29 (count em!)sizes and types of the M, O, 1, and XM. Mostly M and O. Just adding them as the scaling tells me I need them.

It is my experience that using the Paulello wire in the top half of the piano does add clarity and color, and will blend the registers better, even when the wire sizes or type otherwise do not change. The ears of others confirm that observation. I think it will give your ear more of what it wants to hear.

I am eager to use this wire on smaller pianos. I think it really expands our horizons in ways that have not been available before.

Thanks, I'll check out Igus.com for the linear bearings.

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2304736 - 07/21/14 08:58 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Here are the bridge pin marking tools.

I have a whole series of them graduated for different pin sizes and graduated front/back pin distances from 10mm high treble to 15mm end of long bridge...18-20mm bass bridge. They are laid out in autocad and run on the bridgeport so no matter what the front/back distance is, and no matter what pin size is being used for that unison, I end up with a consistent 13 deg string termination at the bridge.

I have a series of these targeting 10 deg termination angle, but found, prior to using the present drilling jig, that the 10 degs autocad layout actually ended up about 7 deg, which I took to be contributing to falseness in the high treble. I may be fingering that less than 10 termination angle incorrectly as contributing to falseness, but that is how I'm proceeding at this point, pending clearer evidence of how to clean up that high treble.

The current drilling protocol, with the epoxy/veneer lam cap, #6pins trough most of the long bridge,careful stringing, 13 deg termination at the pins, close 10-12mm front/back pin distance in the high treble is getting my best yet trebles clarity. There are still a few stragglers, and I'm gun'in for them with whatever ammunition I can muster!







Jim Ialeggio


Edited by jim ialeggio (07/21/14 08:59 AM)
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304744 - 07/21/14 09:11 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: WilliamTruitt]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: WilliamTruitt
Jim, I am a bit confused by the pecking method you describe as pertains to your jig.


I mean I'm avoiding holding the drill and creating the angle by hand and eye, letting the jig do all the guiding. To actually plunge the bit into the wood, gravity does the trick, mostly. I may apply some plunge force by hand with larger bits, but the holes remain straight and consistent, because the motion of the drill is consistent, straight and in plane with the motion of the bearing.

So I let the jig very slowly enter the marked hole, resisting the pull of gravity with my finger on the carriage until the initial hole entry is cut true, then let gravity take over. I adjust the foot pedal speed just fast enough to get chips expelling. The speed will differ with different size bits...small bits seem to clear chips at a slower speed than larger bits. I watch the chips by eye and feel and adjust the foot pedal as necessary. I usually find a shim placed under the foot pedal for each drill size mostly gets the right speed for that bit. Partially down the drilled hole, if I feel the expelled chips are slowing down or getting stuck lower in the hole, I retract the sliding carriage, let the chip spin clear, and let gravity take the bit back into the hole. This retract and resume of the plunge is the "peck"

Jim Ialeggio


Edited by jim ialeggio (07/21/14 09:15 AM)
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304781 - 07/21/14 10:42 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Jim, do you use specific drill bits for wood? Their hélicoïdal shape get the chops out efficiently.

Nothing as usual metal bits.
Then no clogging or undue heating.

I understand you do not like to be given advice or information from elsewhere, or from foreign piano design people. This seem to be a common "admirable" attitude. Personally I found worth and very useful to avoid reinvent things that where yet analyzed and understood to some point.
That allows to have benefit from old timers and avoid experiment too much on customers pianos, so I stick with that attitude and remain only vigilant, but I noticed that the most vociferous piano people are strongly reaffirming things with no much desire for contradiction, so I did a full step on the side from there.

And go back to reading, seminars and exchange with traditionally trained piano builders. Hopefully most of the basic concepts they learned are simple enough to be understood at large.

Most advances are on some "detail points" today, some being more important than others.

Foundations for high quality seem to relate still to very old process that where refined.

End of rant. If it was one!
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2304790 - 07/21/14 10:53 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Olek]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Olek,
This is how I punch the bridge before drilling. Then I use high-helix parabolic bits in my variable speed, air powered drill. The pattern is laid out on masking tape and meticulously corrected for uniform position and speaking length to provide the most uniform pin placement I can derive from the original pattern and the existing plate.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2304791 - 07/21/14 10:55 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: WilliamTruitt]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: WilliamTruitt
Isaac, that is the way I have been doing it. I thought you meant something else.






And you still have slipping bits?

The small bits I have for wood will heat in glue, but they are very sharp and the chips are immediately extracted. So they follow nicely the pointing, even free hand.

Yes Paulello M in high treble is more coherently consistance in tone (brillancy)

As they are a little stronger than Roseau that can help of course. I find them to stabilize extremely fast, also.

Then, the tone have less "meat" more "finesse" it is a style in itself.

Regards
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2304801 - 07/21/14 11:11 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Olek]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
Actually, Isaac, I never said they were skipping or sliding. Only that if the drill bit was not dead center in the index hole that the drill bit would flex. How much will be determined by how far off you are from center. Since the drill will more or less self correct the angle as you go deeper into the wood, that means the angle will vary. That introduces the opportunity for the hole to oblongate at the top - where it most needs to be consistently sized and rounded to most tightly grip the pin that will be driven into it.

For that reason, any methodology that would be more likely to provide a straight path would be most desirable. And Jim is most generously sharing his latest methodology, which I find very intriguing.

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2304819 - 07/21/14 12:31 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
Hi Ed:

This is what I have used to lay out bridges:
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?part...w&cId=PDIO1
It is a thin vinyl drawer lining material that is white. It is self-adhesive, so you peel off the backing after cutting it roughly to shape on the bridge (the roll is 20" by 24 feet, and costs about 10 bucks). It is fairly thin, but you can lay it down without creases. Cut to shape with razor. Nice and visible for layout. If you make a mistake, peel it off before you commit and start over. When you are done, peels off easily as long as you don't leave it on several days. I like it and find it useful. I found it at my local Lowes.

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2304820 - 07/21/14 12:42 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Olek]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
Isaac:

Don't mistake Jim for someone else we both know who is a bit of a dragon. I know Jim, and he's a creampuff. He is a nice guy.
Smart too. Not a bad combination.

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2304821 - 07/21/14 12:43 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: jim ialeggio]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
Thanks Jim for both the pictures of your layout, and your explanation.
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2304827 - 07/21/14 12:54 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: WilliamTruitt]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: WilliamTruitt
Actually, Isaac, I never said they were skipping or sliding. Only that if the drill bit was not dead center in the index hole that the drill bit would flex. How much will be determined by how far off you are from center. Since the drill will more or less self correct the angle as you go deeper into the wood, that means the angle will vary. That introduces the opportunity for the hole to oblongate at the top - where it most needs to be consistently sized and rounded to most tightly grip the pin that will be driven into it.

For that reason, any methodology that would be more likely to provide a straight path would be most desirable. And Jim is most generously sharing his latest methodology, which I find very intriguing.

Will


It cannot be round if bored with an angle. In any case. But the second punching is prepping the centering and the orientation, then certainly a small gig may ensure more consistency.

I just learned that the pins have to be lightly tapped after stringing, and also the bridge is designed with the small imprints of the strings taken in account, that will determine the location of the pin.
When I see how strong the strings where or are massaged at the factory, I would not be surprised than part of the final indentation of the cap is yet installed immediately at stringing time.

About tone clarity, without voicing much is expected, with voicing the piano is way more forgiving.

The energy raise obtained with voicing tend to drive the tone more, and light defects are hidden.
False beats are not a common problem, in my case. I don't dismiss their existence and more with bad constructions but I can get rid of them, most often.


Edited by Olek (07/21/14 01:06 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2304830 - 07/21/14 01:01 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: WilliamTruitt]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: WilliamTruitt
Isaac:

Don't mistake Jim for someone else we both know who is a bit of a dragon. I know Jim, and he's a creampuff. He is a nice guy.
Smart too. Not a bad combination.

Will


I just provided him all my personal translation of the German design books, Klauss Fenner, Ulrich Laible , Bluethner, without a thank you nor any comment, constructive or not.
A good guy that want to discover all by himself.
That is, some are of course agressive and not listening at all, but that lack of curiosity for the German masters is astonishing (yes I know they loose the war..).

You cannot on one side praise the European piano building as a good example and on the other dismiss what was written.
At last a critical reading would allow to add something.
But no, soundboard are good without inner stress to lighten them, and others the tone exigence quality seem to be so different, may be in the end those books where of no interest in the end!

Regards



Edited by Olek (07/21/14 01:03 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2304844 - 07/21/14 01:29 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Out of curiosity: do rebuilders have any strong opinions on how the side-bearing of the strings should be set/calculated? Like down bearing, I find modern day side-bearing to be generally excessive. Do you care about bridge pin size, and/or the height of the pin above the bridge?
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2304938 - 07/21/14 04:23 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: A454.7]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: A443
I find modern day side-bearing to be generally excessive.

interested in the minimum side bearing that allows complete termination, but not sure what that minimum is
Originally Posted By: A443

Do you care about bridge pin size

experimenting with Ed Mcmorrow's protocol here, # 6 pins quite tightly spaced front to back high treble,10mm graduating to 12mm around #69. #6 well down the long bridge, transitioning to #7 for wrapped tri chords or bi-chords bottom of long bridge. #8 hi bass, #9 monochords. I think Ed may be doing this a bit differently, but that's what I've done so far...pending results

Originally Posted By: A443
and/or the height of the pin above the bridge?

don't care

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2304950 - 07/21/14 04:52 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: jim ialeggio]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
I'm going to assume that the tight spacing front to back is to give more side bearing in the top section, and that is where we most often see the least amount of side bearing angle (and sometimes too little).

Is the use of the smaller bridge pin sizes to give a sharper bend of the wire at the bridge pin, and perhaps a more defined termination?

Will
_________________________
fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

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#2305056 - 07/21/14 08:00 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: WilliamTruitt]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: WilliamTruitt
I'm going to assume that the tight spacing front to back is to give more side bearing in the top section, and that is where we most often see the least amount of side bearing angle (and sometimes too little).


Actually on this, I'm relying on Ed's empirical evidence for now, and seeing what happens. I have not been happy with the impedance model for the top capo section and this has inspired me to purchase a 1 piano license from Ed to do a test of his Fully Tempered Duplex Scale according to portions of his patent application.

My sense is that the high treble is mostly about the terminations, and I think he has a good line on what's going on up there. The explanations regarding the L modes are an unproved hypothesis at this point, but whether his explanation is correct or not, his empirical evidence says to me he's on to something up there, and I'm going with it to see where it goes.

Add to that, as I travel around to service calls, I have noticed, even here in New England piano heck, that though the mid trebles and their boards are dead in tired New England grands,and the bass is always without any musical sustain, though the high treble is beat, bridges hurting, etc, given some time with the hammers I routinely can find possibilities up there by dealing with other than soundboard related issues. I would really like to just do some seious bridge work, hammer work, and strike point work up there on a beat grand and see just how much can still be had out of a dead belly's high treble. The reiterate, I'm referring to the top capo section in particular, not the rest of the belly.

So anyway, the tight spacing is on Ed's advice...as far as side bearing, no, for me, its not, about increasing side bearing. My layout jigs are producing consistent 13 deg angles through the entire compass.

Smaller bridge pins are about reducing bridge weight.

Its all an experiment which, from what I can hear right now in this belly is going to work nicely...I will not know for sure until the fat lady sings, and I get the action done sometime late in august.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

Top
#2305089 - 07/21/14 09:20 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: jim ialeggio]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
My layout jigs are producing consistent 13 deg angles through the entire compass.
Have you ever experimented with what a 12 deg angle feel like when tuning, or 11, 10, 9, etc.? When the combined down-bearing and side-bearing angles are too extreme, I immediately know it when I am tuning: the string movement is not as smooth and it requires more rendering (aka banging) to equalise the madness. Does anyone know what the sound/feel problem is when there is not enough? What observations tell us there is not enough? I'm not sure I know this problem through experience...
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2305098 - 07/21/14 10:02 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: A454.7]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: A443
Does anyone know what the sound/feel problem is when there is not enough? What observations tell us there is not enough? I'm not sure I know this problem through experience...


The first set of these layout jigs which I used on a different piano, were targeting 10 deg, but ended up, with drill bit entry drift at 7 deg. Bass, tenor, 1st capo were fine, actually singing quite nicely, great sustain, no noise. However the top capo section, which for me is where I'm really working these questions, was a chorus of false beats which I could not cure. They quieted down with a good tuning, but they were still there and pissed me off.

I'm not quite sure its fair to finger the 7 deg angle as the culprit, but I'm gun shy right now. At least until cause and effect of recalcitrant falseness becomes clearer. The current belly with 13 deg angle, much more precise drilling, and epoxy lam cap is miles better than this 7 deg patient regarding falseness.

By the way, I have always endeavored to string as you describe in your earlier thread with the pic above in this thread, and re-stringing has not improved recalitrant beating, at least in the case I described above. Sometimes its hard to read where the natural curve will end up, but often it lays down correctly. So I'm interested in why your results are conclusive and mine are not. This is not a challenge, but rather an attempt to understand.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2305160 - 07/22/14 12:56 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
One reason I decided to try a piano with reduced distance between the front and back row of bridge pins was to increase the holding power of the pins without increasing the side forces. Since the stagger offset string angle is kept the same-having the string segment shorter between them increases the apparent stiffness of the termination due to the stiff nature of piano wire. I believe it makes it harder for the speaking length to "vibrate" the string segment on the top of the bridge. Of course any motion of this segment that is separate from the bridge motion is bad.

Also, since I use the copper plated pins, the string is able to indent the plating and this also helps hold the string from climbing the pin.

Another reason is to keep the neighboring rows of pins as far away from each other as is practicable.

My FTDS implemented in the way my license requires, produces a high treble tone that is very, very good. Better I think than any piano that has ever been made. Upon hearing how clear, dynamic and full the tone is, you may start to think about adding notes above 88.

I have done a couple of bridges where the side bearing stagger angle of the strings was low. These pianos are more difficult to get the string to stay exactly in perfect tune when hit very hard. They just keep "wandering" a very slight bit. More false beats too.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2305176 - 07/22/14 01:41 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1843
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
One reason I decided to try a piano with reduced distance between the front and back row of bridge pins was to increase the holding power of the pins without increasing the side forces. Since the stagger offset string angle is kept the same-having the string segment shorter between them increases the apparent stiffness of the termination due to the stiff nature of piano wire. I believe it makes it harder for the speaking length to "vibrate" the string segment on the top of the bridge. Of course any motion of this segment that is separate from the bridge motion is bad.

Also, since I use the copper plated pins, the string is able to indent the plating and this also helps hold the string from climbing the pin.

Another reason is to keep the neighboring rows of pins as far away from each other as is practicable.

My FTDS implemented in the way my license requires, produces a high treble tone that is very, very good. Better I think than any piano that has ever been made. Upon hearing how clear, dynamic and full the tone is, you may start to think about adding notes above 88.

I have done a couple of bridges where the side bearing stagger angle of the strings was low. These pianos are more difficult to get the string to stay exactly in perfect tune when hit very hard. They just keep "wandering" a very slight bit. More false beats too.


Finding just the right balance betwixt makes all the difference. Conversely, one maker of a lesser Korean grand of the day, 4'6" I think, had a penchant for adding way too much side bearing at the bass bridge. Perhaps to help stabilize the tuning of an inherently unstable design? or just sloppy work? After only a few years ruptured bass bridges were not altogether unknown. Seemed like an eternity to get a new bridge shipped from Asia. An unexpected surprise: when we installed the new bridge with proper side bearing we expected a trade-off manifested in a lack of tuning stability. That didn't happen. It tuned up just fine. And so, maybe it was just sloppy work after all.


Edited by bkw58 (07/22/14 01:43 AM)
Edit Reason: typo
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#2305247 - 07/22/14 08:18 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
Jim, here is another question:

Kudos to you for the great care that you are taking to make sure the bridge pin holes are centered and drilled straight. As you have described it, I see no reason why you would not have greater consistency and less likelihood to abuse the hole in the act of drilling, and achieve a better result.

We all drive the bridge pins in by hand using a punch and a hammer. With approximately 500 pins to drive in, the opportunity to have an off target blow with the hammer is there. I certainly have, and sometimes I have even bent the smaller bridge pins. I may be clumsier than the average bear, but I suspect we all have done this at one time or another.

That misplaced blow can distort the top of the hole, making otherwise careful work for naught. What are you doing to minimize this? Have you created a dedicated arbor press to push the pins in to depth, since you are doing your bridge work outside of the piano?

Will
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#2305256 - 07/22/14 09:01 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: WilliamTruitt]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 746
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: WilliamTruitt
We all drive the bridge pins in by hand using a punch and a hammer. With approximately 500 pins to drive in, the opportunity to have an off target blow with the hammer is there. Will


I do this by hand...early in my career, as a site finish carpenter, I was known far and wide to have the worst hammer aim this side of Spokane. So I feel your pain...literally...ouch smile

I do have a dedicated series of brass punches I made, which allow you to insert the various size pins snuggly into the punch to accurately start the pin at the appropriate angle, and drive it most of the way...errant hammer strikes are well removed from the top of the cap. I also place a smaller size pin in adjacent holes to help me eyeball the actual angle that I want to start the new pin at.

But no, no press. And yes I have bent a #6 pin ...arghh...cludgers unite!

I'm not sure a press would help, because aligning a press shaft travel to the precise angle of the already drilled hole would be very difficult to pull off. A CNC where a rotating multi tool head drills then inserts at the same position, would be ideal. As I mentioned before, in field service, I routinely notice how clean sounding machine pinned laminated caps are, even if the instrument is cheap. They have plenty of other issues but falseness often isn't one of them.

I don't know what the actual physics of this is, but my sense is that a #6 pin is exerting less distortional force on a hole than a large pin, particularly if the pin is started off coarse. Can any material science guys out there address this?

Jim Ialeggio
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#2305318 - 07/22/14 11:37 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
The quarter-sawn maple bridge cap has a certain elasticity. So it can tolerate a certain amount of mis-directed hammer force without compromising the tightness of the hole on the pin. The highly laminated caps would actually have less of this. So they would require a higher degree of pin driving accuracy. I use a regular nail set to install the pin after I start it in the hole with the hammer alone. I do bend a #6 pin or two, at the start-I just pull it out and stick in a new pin. Very slight vertical bending can be done after driving in to further align the pins or remove any slight bending the driving produced.
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#2305335 - 07/22/14 12:22 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
WilliamTruitt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/14
Posts: 138
Loc: New Hampshire
And another cludger comes out of the closet..... smile

Are some of the laminated caps densified in the glue up process? (such as a falconwood block would be). Otherwise I don't see that laminating the piece would make its external surface any harder, if it is made of the same materials (rock maple)

Will
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#2305351 - 07/22/14 12:40 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
How tight a fit are people striving for with the bridge pins? What observations do you use to ascertain if the fit is too tight/loose? Any follow-up hand reaming, or just machine drilling?
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Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
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#2305679 - 07/22/14 11:31 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
A454.7 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/12
Posts: 1577
Loc: Manywheres
For those that prefer a tighter bridge-pin fit, one can freeze the pins beforehand to temporary reduce their size upon installation. It helps prevent excess friction and accidental bendings, but it also allows for a more consistent and tighter fit of the pins.

Freezing also works well with the installation of tuning pins and consistency/feel of hammer at the pin. cool
_________________________
Masters degree in piano technology, +factory(s) training, etc., blah, blah, yada, yada, yada...[uncensored break-out in song]..."it don't mean a thing, if you aint got that swing."
--Klavierbaukuenstler des Erwachens--
Email: klavierbaukuenstler@gmail.com

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#2305680 - 07/22/14 11:32 PM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2409
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
If you can pull the pin out without making definite dents in the pin from the pliers-it is loose. But many pianos have pins that loose and they can sound quite clean regarding false beats. But the piano has to start out tight or they get too loose for good tone in a few years.
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#2305769 - 07/23/14 06:48 AM Re: Fascinating Restoration Video [Re: Paul678]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
A little from Fenner :
t remains to say something about the bridge pins. If possible, the pins thickness should not be less than 2.3 mm in the treble, which is sufficient even in the medium range. For small little piano, equipped with the above mentioned reduced Bass bridge, this strength is enough there, too.
For larger instruments with strong core wire and heavy bars bridge pins are thicker in the bass of course as required.
Some manufacturers use bridge pins made of brass, which looks nice at first.
It is well remembered that in countries with a humid climate, these pins can not rust . But they can corrode, and this is much worse. Experiences, for example, from England confirm this dilemma. It must be remembered, too, that brass pins with the same dimensions are less stable than iron pins.
Also, pins made of stainless steel, as used in needle roller bearings have been sometimes already used.
This promises to advantages, especially when these pins are harder than usual from ordinary iron. There are, however, not been enough experience with the use of such bridge pins before to assess what the results can be.


Edited by Olek (07/23/14 06:54 AM)
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