|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
65 members (aphexdisklavier, bobrunyan, anotherscott, AaronSF, apianostudent, beeboss, brdwyguy, benkeys, 14 invisible),
2,188
guests, and
386
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452 |
And even if the experienced members don't make that claim of Horowitz et al, others do, as this thread has some examples. Rather new here? Welcome anyway. Sure - welcome. And since you are a new member - why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. Your "profile" is rather open ended (i.e., blank). Faulty was a very active member on the pianostreet forums, so I ask him -why did you come here? My guess is involuntarily... Anyways, welcome! You'll find that the general level of knowledge here is much higher than on your previous forum, so don't expect to be able to behave the same way you did before. You're having a fresh start! Think about this.
Last edited by Francisco Scalco; 07/20/14 12:05 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561 |
I don't believe in one infallible interpretation. I'll accept many. There may be a hundred ways to play a piece that work, and many that don't. I don't think Ashkenazy's worked because it was too aggressive, didn't breathe. Chopin was a delicate creature, and as vehement as some of his pieces are, they are always classy.
Michael
"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience." Leonardo da Vinci
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391 |
You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.
As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.
John I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having a conviction about how you wish to interpret a piece. I think, in fact, that one must believe what they're doing to such a degree that they can pull it off effectively. So I get what Parks was saying, I think. When I have a specific idea of how I want to interpret a piece, that is what I want to hear. Not that I can't enjoy something else, but if it differs too much from how I feel the music speaks to me, I may not choose to listen beyond once or twice. It somehow doesn't satisfy. Still, I can get lots of ideas from other's interpretations when I'm not sure, or if I want to change things up a bit and look at something with fresh "ears". I think drumour was talking to faulty... Yes, and it's on a forum where we all can participate in the conversation.
private piano/voice teacher FT
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 189
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 189 |
Dare I ask what you think of Glenn Gould as a pianist?
He had focal dystonia. If you injure yourself doing something you love, you're either a masochist or Glenn Gould. LOL!!! I don't see what's so funny.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 452 |
You get an inspirational teacher who knows what they're doing and (finally?) your playing takes off. It's tempting to believe that their way - now your way - is the only way. Bad way to think! There are patently many ways that work.
As bad, is deciding what you want from a piece and that anything different falls short. That is a closed mindedness which, amongst other things ties music down and diminishes it. It's probably better to accept that you're not the centre of the universe and that other perspectives can be just as valid.
John I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with having a conviction about how you wish to interpret a piece. I think, in fact, that one must believe what they're doing to such a degree that they can pull it off effectively. So I get what Parks was saying, I think. When I have a specific idea of how I want to interpret a piece, that is what I want to hear. Not that I can't enjoy something else, but if it differs too much from how I feel the music speaks to me, I may not choose to listen beyond once or twice. It somehow doesn't satisfy. Still, I can get lots of ideas from other's interpretations when I'm not sure, or if I want to change things up a bit and look at something with fresh "ears". I think drumour was talking to faulty... Yes, and it's on a forum where we all can participate in the conversation. Oh I though you understood drumour was talking to parks. Nevermind then.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561 |
Oh I though you understood drumour was talking to parks. So did I...
Michael
"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience." Leonardo da Vinci
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69 |
Faulty was a very active member on the pianostreet forums, so I ask him -why did you come here? My guess is involuntarily... Anyways, welcome! You'll find that the general level of knowledge here is much higher than on your previous forum, so don't expect to be able to behave the same way you did before. You're having a fresh start! Think about this.
Excuse you, but you imply that I behaved badly on that forum when it was the other way around. Other members behaved badly (name calling, sexual innuendos, personal attacks, etc.). They didn't agree with me so they attacked me. What's amazing is that other members didn't even read my posts but assumed, because these harassing members accused me of being uncivil, that it was true. Kind of like those teenage girl rumors intended to damage reputations, no one checks to see if it's true; looking at who the finger is pointing to, not the person pointing the finger. It was the people pointing fingers who had the issues. Anyway, yes, there seems to be a slightly higher level of maturity and knowledge here which is why I decided to post. But there are still the young ones who still need to learn the difference between what is said and who says it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69 |
I don't care for Ashkenazy's piano playing... In this recording: too fast.. It's actually on the slow side. Chopin's own tempo marking is noticeably faster. Ashkenazy also accents a lot of notes on his way through the arpeggios which makes it somewhat grounded, percussive. The character of the piece is much more lifted, floating. Thus, he failed to capture the character.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,391 |
Oh I though you understood drumour was talking to parks. So did I... I did understand, and I was offering my opinion on the subject. What's the problem?
private piano/voice teacher FT
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 24,601 |
You're basically asking him to try to behave better. I'm not sure it's about anything like that. It seems more a thing of what kinds of strongly-held views he has, unless he's just goofing on us, which I don't think he is. He seems genuinely to think stuff like that Horowitz and Rubinstein didn't play real well, not to mention that you shouldn't have to practice a piece like this very much. I'm not sure how we can help someone to be a good member when he just really thinks stuff like that.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956 |
You're basically asking him to try to behave better. I'm not sure it's about anything like that. It seems more a thing of what kinds of strongly-held views he has, unless he's just goofing on us, which I don't think he is. He seems genuinely to think stuff like that Horowitz and Rubinstein didn't play real well, not to mention that you shouldn't have to practice a piece like this very much. I'm not sure how we can help someone to be a good member when he just really thinks stuff like that. I decided to delete my post because, quite frankly, in the great scheme of things, it doesn't matter.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392 |
You'll find that the general level of knowledge here is much higher than on your previous forum... Bit of an understatement. I haven't posted there in several years, and the site is no longer bookmarked.
Jason
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69 |
He seems genuinely to think stuff like that Horowitz and Rubinstein didn't play real well, not to mention that you shouldn't have to practice a piece like this very much. I'm not sure how we can help someone to be a good member when he just really thinks stuff like that. Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique. However, they didn't sound bad at all (though I strongly disagree.) For this reason, people make the assumption that if you sound good, then you must also play good. This is a fallacy. You can go from A to B via a straight line or you can take the most crooked path possible but still end up at the final destination. As I've already stated, technique is nothing more than the movements necessary to depress the keys in a manner that reproduces the desired sound. If you don't use the best ones, you will be handicapping yourself, like trying to sprint by hopping on one leg. You should use both legs, keep upright, and swing the arms. While you can run without moving the arms, swinging the arms saves energy and you can run faster. However, there are many pianists who run by hopping on one leg, without swinging the arms, or both. They get frustrated because they are exhausted and can't run as fast as they'd like. Then they can't figure out why other pianists don't seem to get tired and can run faster than they can. So they use the idol-worship excuse: those pianists are just different from the rest of us. In reality, the only thing they did differently was swing their arms and used both legs. You can spend thousands of hours running on one leg but you'll never be as fast as using two. You can spend thousands of hours running with both legs but you'll never be as fast as you can by swinging your arms. If you did both, you wouldn't need to waste thousands hopping on one leg. You'd get there pretty quickly. This is a very different paradigm that most pianists are aware, which is more practice=better pianist, i.e. practice makes perfect. Thus, because it's so contrary to what pianists believe, it's difficult to even comprehend what this means on the practical level so it's easy to dismiss it. And I guess in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't bother me that much that so many pianists are hopping around on one leg. But wouldn't running with both legs be easier?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956 |
Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique. However, they didn't sound bad at all (though I strongly disagree.) Faulty - If you can/will acknowledge that this is YOUR OPINION - and not a statement of fact - you'll probably do fine here.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990 |
Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique.
This is contingent on the placement of the "poor" cursor on the technique scale. It's probably more accurate to say that their technique was not nearly as high of caliber as is celebrated by pedagogy today; look at some members here who will praise long-dead pianists as the pinnacle of technical and musical achievement. Even in the music department at my school there are piano students who play technical circles around the sloppy Rubinstein. Horowitz was also quite sloppy and there is no reason to believe those who came before (Liszt, Beethoven, et al) were just as sloppy. I agree that there are many fools who are stuck in the outdated and irrational scope of traditional piano pedagogy. Many of these people are active in these forums, but I'm speaking about their kind in general. They deny advancements in science and continue living in a bubble of self righteousness. And of course, as you've said already, the romantic appeal to dead pianists is fallacious thinking, but these sort of people are not worth your time: they literally live this line of their life in ignorance and are closed to objective, scientific, factual analysis.
Last edited by Atrys; 07/20/14 07:57 PM.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind." R. W. Emerson
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,956 |
Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique.
This is contingent on the placement of the "poor" cursor on the technique scale. It's probably more accurate to say that their technique was not nearly as high of caliber as is celebrated by pedagogy today; look at some members here who will praise long-dead pianists as the pinnacle of technical and musical achievement. Even in the music department at my school there are piano students who play technical circles around the sloppy Rubinstein. Horowitz was also quite sloppy and there is no reason to believe those who came before (Liszt, Beethoven, et al) were just as sloppy. Perhaps "technique" isn't everything. I agree that there are many fools who are stuck in the outdated and irrational scope of traditional piano pedagogy. Many of these people are active in these forums, but I'm speaking about their kind in general. They deny advancements in science and continue living in a bubble of self righteousness. And of course, as you've said already, the romantic appeal to dead pianists is fallacious thinking, but these sort of people are not worth your time: they literally live this line of their life in ignorance and are closed to objective, scientific, factual analysis. Generally speaking, there are all kinds of self righteous fools in the world. Objectivity, science and factual analysis are fine as long as they are tempered with tolerance and compassion.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990
500 Post Club Member
|
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 990 |
Perhaps "technique" isn't everything.
Agree 100%; what makes a musical legend is musical achievement, I only mean to speak strictly about technical facility. Objectivity, science and factual analysis are fine as long as they are tempered with tolerance and compassion.
I see what you're saying, and agree on some level, but "tolerance" is not the right word. The problem mechanism I'm pointing at is the denial of truth, which is a disservice to education.
Last edited by Atrys; 07/20/14 09:47 PM.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind." R. W. Emerson
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69 |
Horowitz and Rubinstein (along with a host of other famous pianists) had poor technique. However, they didn't sound bad at all (though I strongly disagree.) Faulty - If you can/will acknowledge that this is YOUR OPINION - and not a statement of fact - you'll probably do fine here. How is it not my opinion? I am writing my own posts, am I not? (Yes, I am indeed.) Thus, it is implicitly acknowledged that it is my opinion on the matter. Further, it's already implicitly implied that these are not facts that can be verified (like the speed of gravity or the absorption of light by chlorophyll) because these are qualitative statements, not quantitative ones. And about writing, when making an argument, it is unnecessary to constantly state, "my opinion". It's already understood it's an opinion. This is what is taught in writing classes - or has writing instruction dropped so low that people don't know how to write anymore? (Reading various forums suggests that this is the case, that many people don't know how to write to communicate clearly.)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 69 |
Perhaps "technique" isn't everything. That depends on how "technique" is defined. Often, when discussing technique, for the ease of communication, it must be separated from the discussion of music. Otherwise, it would be difficult to tease apart sound and movement and the audience will have a difficult time understanding. Thus, "technique isn't everything" is understood in the sense that it is different from sound. However, in practice, neither can be separated. And since technique is a precursor to playing, technique is, in fact, everything leading up to the actual production of sound.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392
9000 Post Club Member
|
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,392 |
Generally speaking, there are all kinds of self righteous fools in the world. Objectivity, science and factual analysis are fine as long as they are tempered with tolerance and compassion.
Interesting that Chopin wrote this about Liszt: Liszt is playing my etudes, and transporting me outside of my respectable thoughts. I should like to steal from him the way to play my own etudes. I do wonder if Chopin might have said that about Ashkenazy's Melodiya recording also.
Jason
|
|
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,408
Posts3,349,457
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|