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Joined: Jan 2013
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Haha, this is obviously a false statement that is not supported by reason or evidence. All right. 2+2 = 4. Discuss. You can't. At least not meaningfully, unless you invent a new kind of math. If you insist that what you say is truth, and what I say is nonsense, well ... then I have one indisputable fact for you: this conversation is a waste of my time. Good night.
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What was this thread about again?   I think it's about some Chopin etude I've personally never had the desire or patience to learn myself. We're sure having fun here aren't we !!  I happen to be working on this one but found the OP somewhat dubious. As for the rest I'm still searching for some illumination.
- Schimmel Upright
- Kawai VPC-1 with Pianoteq
Any issues or concerns are piped to /dev/null
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- Objective: Music is about producing sounds, not movements (for that we have dance), and we seem to agree that Horowitz "sounded good"...
No, I do not agree that Horowitz sounded good. I can't listen to most of his recordings. I can hear too many technical issues including wrong notes. That's your portrait of what kind of musician you are. If you can't listen most of Horowitz recordings, I'll take as a compliment that you think (without ever heard me, that's said) that I'm a not very good pianist. I've never been, nor want to be your ideal of pianist. Thank you so much 
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You know nothing about me. You simply can't know if I'm a good pianist or not, anyway I'm not interested at all in your opinion. Would I be a better pianist in your imagination if I'd agree with you? Hahaha, this thread is getting funny.
I insist in my opinion, you are a piano noob. I'm really sick of dilettantes like you who spread their false information on Internet forums. Dunning-Kreuger may apply to you, not me. I'm not the one who is telling nonsensical things based on some personal opinions with no evidence at all.
BTW, only out of curiosity, what are your credentials, whom have you studied with and where? What's your background? I think I asked it before.
This is nothing but nonsense and poor reasoning in action. Notice the appeal to authority as well. Try again poor "Carlo". I don't need to try it again, "Atrys". BTW, who the heck are you, faulty's advocate? I think he can defend by himself...
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All right.
2+2 = 4.
Discuss.
You can't.
Yes I can: a/2 + a/2 = a Let a = 4 Then, 2 + 2 = 4 That was easy.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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BTW, who the heck are you, faulty's advocate? I think he can defend by himself...
No one is "defending" anyone, except those lost souls defending the sloppy Horowitz. I'm just pointing fingers at stupid ideas spread by silly people.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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being able to improvise at the highest creative level - well, that's a gift !!
Do you have evidence to support this claim, or are you making things up again? I can't do it myself - therefore it is a gift. Of course, I never tried very hard to learn how to do it......as I was more interested in playing classical stuff from the score. In fact, the evidence available to us points to the contrary. If that were really true then perhaps every pianist who really wanted to improvise exceptionally well would be doing it - don't you think? And in the great scheme of things (evidence or no evidence) - what does it matter?????
Last edited by carey; 07/21/14 05:37 PM.
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If that were really true then perhaps every pianist who really wanted to improvise exceptionally well would be doing it - don't you think?
No, I don't think that because it is not that simple. Extremely high levels of improv proficiency can be achieved by basically anyone, but that does not imply it is "easy", and it does not imply that everyone who wants to learn actually sets out to do so.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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BTW, who the heck are you, faulty's advocate? I think he can defend by himself...
No one is "defending" anyone, except those lost souls defending the sloppy Horowitz. I'm just pointing fingers at stupid ideas spread by silly people. Watch that bitterness, will led you to have an ulcer... (I pity you)
Last edited by CarloPiano; 07/21/14 05:51 PM. Reason: It's not worth
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If that were really true then perhaps every pianist who really wanted to improvise exceptionally well would be doing it - don't you think?
No, I don't think that because it is not that simple. Extremely high levels of improv proficiency can be achieved by basically anyone, but that does not imply it is "easy", and it does not imply that everyone who wants to learn actually sets out to do so. Fair enough. 
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....he's been at it for almost 50 years.... Another (inadvertent) understatement!  OK - perhaps it's been a little over 50 years (I vaguely recall you saying once that you started around age 12). I've been at it myself for 60 years now. Of course time spent has absolutely nothing to do with level of proficiency achieved.
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For even such a self-proclaimed 'expert' as yourself, you've said a lot of stuff which is pure nonsense on this thread already, but this really takes the biscuit.
That people use the entire range of movements on a daily basis? Even pianists?
Go ask a doctor, or an anatomist, or a physical therapist.
Nobody - not even a gymnast, or ballet dancer, or contortionist - uses the entire range of possible movements in any one joint on any one day.
See, you purposefully distort the idea to suit your needs. Then you say that people must be able to do backflips, side splits, or they can't play the piano. Do you see how ludicrous your line of reasoning is? All that was stated is that the range of movements are used on a daily basis. You move your fingers. Rotate forearms, slide the wrists, arch the back, etc. This is what's meant. Not backflips or somersaults.
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Its OK if Mark plays better than you. After all he's been at it for almost 50 years.
And of course, "anyone" can learn basic improvisational skills - but being able to improvise at the highest creative level - well, that's a gift !!
And Horowitz had been at it fore more than 50 years and he played terribly, progressively getting worse. What's your point?  How long you do something doesn't guarantee mastery. E.g. teachers don't get better (student learning outcomes) the longer they teach.
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For even such a self-proclaimed 'expert' as yourself, you've said a lot of stuff which is pure nonsense on this thread already, but this really takes the biscuit.
That people use the entire range of movements on a daily basis? Even pianists?
Go ask a doctor, or an anatomist, or a physical therapist.
Nobody - not even a gymnast, or ballet dancer, or contortionist - uses the entire range of possible movements in any one joint on any one day.
See, you purposefully distort the idea to suit your needs. Then you say that people must be able to do backflips, side splits, or they can't play the piano. Do you see how ludicrous your line of reasoning is? All that was stated is that the range of movements are used on a daily basis. You move your fingers. Rotate forearms, slide the wrists, arch the back, etc. This is what's meant. Not backflips or somersaults. Who said anything about backflips or somersaults? I'm talking about the shoulder, elbow, wrist and finger joints. The ones that pianists use when playing. So, are you going to admit you're wrong? Or are you going to do an 'Atrysism', and attempt to bluster your way out of this?
If music be the food of love, play on!
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....vaguely recall you saying once that you started around age 12.... (half that!)  ....Of course time spent has absolutely nothing to do with level of proficiency achieved Don't I know it.... BTW, I hope nobody ever finds this thread and thinks it's any kind of source for what kind of pianist Horowitz was.
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BTW, only out of curiosity, what are your credentials, whom have you studied with and where? What's your background? I think I asked it before. Ignoring the insulting diatribe at the beginning of your post, I once had a teacher tell me on the very first lesson that he was the student of a student of Rachmaninoff. I couldn't have cared less. He wasn't a very good teacher (student learning outcomes) and most of the injuries at my school came from his students. Also, don't think PhD means much of anything, especially in this day and age. There are more idiots with PhDs than in any time in the history of Western schooling. Further, the literature shows that teacher education attainment (degrees) have no correlation with SLOs.
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Extremely high levels of improv proficiency can be achieved by basically anyone lol
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Who said anything about backflips or somersaults?
I'm talking about the shoulder, elbow, wrist and finger joints. The ones that pianists use when playing.
So, are you going to admit you're wrong?
Or are you going to do an 'Atrysism', and attempt to bluster your way out of this?
Please don't make off-handed insults against other members of this forum or against me for that matter. It severely weakens any argument you make because you digress to attacking the individual and not what is stated. To address your question: If you move the joint, you're making the movement.
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....vaguely recall you saying once that you started around age 12.... (half that!) I stand corrected !!
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BTW, I hope nobody ever finds this thread and thinks it's any kind of source for what kind of pianist Horowitz was.
A sloppy one? It's better that people know the truth.
"A good intention but fixed and resolute - bent on high and holy ends, we shall find means to them on every side and at every moment; and even obstacles and opposition will but make us 'like the fabled specter-ships,' which sail the fastest in the very teeth of the wind."
R. W. Emerson
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