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#2305060 - 07/21/14 08:12 PM Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 874
If the fully rebuilt pianos only use the original
frame and plate, and the rim material doesn't affect
the tone that much:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2302409

Then why not just buy a new piano, and stick a Steinway
sticker on it (or whatever hyped-brand you worship)? If so little of the original piano is there anyways!

Aren't the costs about the same anyways?

Oh, and uh.....let's try to keep this thread somewhat
civilized, ok? Thanks!

thumb


Edited by Paul678 (07/21/14 08:17 PM)

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#2305073 - 07/21/14 08:48 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
Ben_NZ Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/16/14
Posts: 100
Loc: Auckland, New Zealand
Do you mean why not stick your choice of brand name on your rebuilt (not 'new') piano, because so little of the original piano remains that its original manufacturer no longer matters?

I think I'd be very cautious about buying a rebuilt piano with an unknown name cast into the plate but a Steinway decal on the fallboard.

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#2305108 - 07/21/14 10:18 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
Retsacnal Online   content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Registered: 10/11/12
Posts: 727
Loc: Northern Virgina
Originally Posted By: Paul678
If the fully rebuilt pianos only use the original
frame and plate, and the rim material doesn't affect
the tone that much:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2302409

Then why not just buy a new piano, and stick a Steinway
sticker on it (or whatever hyped-brand you worship)? If so little of the original piano is there anyways!

Aren't the costs about the same anyways?

Oh, and uh.....let's try to keep this thread somewhat
civilized, ok? Thanks!

thumb


Wow, how many ways is that wrong...?
  • The new piano doesn't have a Steinway frame or plate; otherwise it'd have a Steinway decal already.
  • The new and presumably cheaper piano isn't built to the same level of quality (materials or workmanship) that the Steinway is; otherwise--again--it'd have a Steinway decal on it already (or some other quality marque).
  • The rebuild ideally should be rebuilt to the same level of quality as the underlying core piano merits; otherwise it's probably not worth rebuilding.
_________________________
1950 Baldwin M

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#2305114 - 07/21/14 10:35 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2107
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: Paul678

Oh, and uh.....let's try to keep this thread somewhat
civilized, ok? Thanks!

thumb


Civilized? ... Civilized?.... Did you say, Civilized?!........ Okie Dokie!
Here ya go..... Civilized...


EDIT: Seriously....there is so much that can be said. It sounds to me like you've never really experienced an S&S that is all an S&S can be. They have a reputation for a reason. That one poster, early on in the other thread. I'd suggest you go to his store and he most likely has some S&S's that are all they can be. New or rebuilt. Doesn't matter.


Edited by rnaple (07/21/14 10:49 PM)
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2305119 - 07/21/14 10:43 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: rnaple]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21912
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: rnaple
Civilized? ... Civilized?.... Did you say, Civilized?!........ Okie Dokie!
Here ya go..... Civilized...




I hate to watch these videos of better performers than me!
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2305123 - 07/21/14 10:50 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2411
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Damm!! I am going to sue someone!! Where did they get that video of me!! I didn't give anyone permission.

At least the photo's are taken from my "good side".
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2305136 - 07/21/14 11:13 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 874
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Damm!! I am going to sue someone!! Where did they get that video of me!! I didn't give anyone permission.

At least the photo's are taken from my "good side".


Worst yet, I'm gonna steal your song ideas, Ed!

I'll just change the key, and put my own bridge
into it, and no one will know I ripped you off!!

Haha! I'm gonna make money off your tune!!!

laugh thumb

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#2305164 - 07/22/14 01:07 AM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Retsacnal]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 874
Originally Posted By: Retsacnal

Wow, how many ways is that wrong...?
  • The new piano doesn't have a Steinway frame or plate; otherwise it'd have a Steinway decal already.
  • The new and presumably cheaper piano isn't built to the same level of quality (materials or workmanship) that the Steinway is; otherwise--again--it'd have a Steinway decal on it already (or some other quality marque).
  • The rebuild ideally should be rebuilt to the same level of quality as the underlying core piano merits; otherwise it's probably not worth rebuilding.


You are missing my point, my friend.

Apparently, Steinway does not consider a re-build
a Steinway unless it has been re-built with "genuine"
Steinway parts, with Steinway trained builders, so
with all the variety of piano shops out there, how
can you be sure it's up to snuff?

The main question is: How much does it cost, on the
average, to do a FULL re-build on a piano, and then
how much would a comparable NEW piano, of the same
size and brand and model, cost?

Please include the cost of buying the "core" of the
re-built piano.

yippie

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#2305173 - 07/22/14 01:36 AM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3367
Originally Posted By: Paul678

The main question is: How much does it cost, on the
average, to do a FULL re-build on a piano, and then
how much would a comparable NEW piano, of the same
size and brand and model, cost?

Please include the cost of buying the "core" of the
re-built piano.

yippie


The cost of a FULL rebuild for a Steinway is roughly 70% of a comparable new instrument, though this will vary somewhat, depending on your local market.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2305178 - 07/22/14 01:54 AM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2411
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Paul678,
Does Steinway produce great Steinways every time they build one OR rebuild one?

Does that make the ones the company makes that aren't great, "Steinwas"? Even though they contain 100% approved components and are worked on by company employees?

What guaranty does the company offer about quality?

I do find Steinway is very capable at building pianos-but for obvious reasons I do not like it when they denigrate independent rebuilders by making broad, oversimplified statements about the state of contemporary piano rebuilding.

I can claim that Steinway is far from a leadership role in state of the art of piano technology. If you want a Steinway piano that utilizes the most durable, dynamic, stable, and controllable tone and touch with materials, configurations and methods that are the most technologically advanced-you will need to do business with an independent rebuilder. I am talking about making a Steinway that is a better Steinway than the company currently produces.

You can say I should remove the brand-but I say what I am doing is taking the traditions that built the Steinway greatness and moving them along the same trajectories you can see they used as they evolved their designs.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2305187 - 07/22/14 02:18 AM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1437
Paul,

The cost of rebuilding any piano is virtually the same regardless of make.

There is some extra cost involved with Steinway parts because they charge a premium. In this country Steinway use renner to manufacture action parts but you can only buy the Steinway approved parts from Steinway. You can also ask Steinway to do the strings plank and board for you, but they will not sell the board for third party installation. Their rebuilds are good quality but I think that there is an element of paying extra for the Steinway name, and their rebuilds aren't necessarily better than a competent independent workshop who has the facility to install new soundboards.

In the UK if you go to an independent workshop direct, expect to pay in the region of 15000 to have a full rebuild with a new soundboard, plank, action and keys and a satin finish.

For a Steinway piano with a Steinway action and keyboard installed, but a plank and board from the independent workshop expect to pay 23000 .

For a Steinway rebuilt in Hamburg through Steinway hall in London it costs 40000

For a Bluthner rebuild through Bluthner in the UK it costs about 18000 to have it rebuilt in the UK workshop, or 23000 to have it rebuilt in Germany in their Leipzig factory. The main cost difference there is shipping.

To buy a fully rebuilt Steinway from Steinway hall in black, costs about 80 percent of the purchase price of a new one.

To buy a Bluthner rebuilt from Bluthner UK costs about 50 percent of the purchase price of a new one, weighing it in at 28000 for a six feet grand.

To buy a bosendorfer fully rebuilt from an independent UK workshop costs around 28000, a Bluthner 23000 and a Steinway about 35000.

Those are prices I have seen in the past year with mine own eyes.

Are the rebuilds as good as a new Yamaha? You decide. I prefer them, you might not.

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#2305188 - 07/22/14 02:20 AM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1437
PS - price of a new Steinway A is 65000, price of a Bosendorfer 185 is 66000 and price of a Bluthner model 6 is 58000 pounds

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#2305208 - 07/22/14 05:09 AM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
Paul678 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/13
Posts: 874
Ok, great info, gentlemen. Thank you much.

So if a fully re-built piano can be 50-80% of a comparable new
piano, you can certainly save quite a bit of cash getting
a re-built one, especially with the top tier instruments.

Not to mention the sentimental value of re-building an instrument that has been in your family for the past 80 years or so, even if most components of the old instrument will be replaced with new ones.

Of course, it all depends on who does the re-building, as from what I have read, the quality of the work can run the gamut of better-than-the-original, to absolute <censored!>!

So how does one find the best re-builders? They all seem to denigrate each other!

I suppose the best way would be to try their instruments yourself....

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#2305217 - 07/22/14 06:29 AM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1437
Yes, you can get a top tier piano, of equal quality to new, for a substantial saving over the cost of a new piano by taking the rebuilding route.

BUT there are certain things that you should consider:

If you want a new Bechstein or new Bluthner of the modern design, you won't find that in a rebuild because the designs have changed over the years - the tone has changed in some ways (difficult to put into words), usually it's a little brighter. So it really depends if you like that individual piano or not.

Bosendorfers have changed over the last 80 years too, but less so, and Steinways from 80 to 100 years ago can be rebuilt to their modern day equivalent, meaning that if you have an old model B from 1890, but you want a new model B, you can have your old model B rebuilt to a specification indistinguishable from the new one. In that case the 40,000 is well worth it because a new model B is 75,000.

Oh wait there is a second option for all rebuilds - you can have the piano customized. That means you can opt to have say, a composite action and/or soundboard installed, you can have the downbearing changed or optimized, you can have the scale design optimized etc. There are some forum members here that can do that kind of work. A level of customization goes in to all rebuilds of course, it's a natural part of the job, because problems crop up and solutions must be found for each individual piano.

My own piano was rebuild by Piano Restorations Ltd in the United Kingdom and the end result is a top quality restoration job, equal to when the piano was new. I had one modification made and that was to replace the old Bluthner Patent Action with a modern roller action. I would say that Piano Restorations Ltd are the best rebuilder in the UK.

Steinway Hall in the UK also offer a rebuilding service as I stated before, and their work is also excellent, but they can't replace soundboards on non-Steinway pianos because they don't have the machinery to do it. Also, they only replace soundboards on the current production models - so if you have a Style II or Style III steinway, or basically a piano which is not an A, B, C, D, S, M, O or L, they can't do the soundboard on it because their jigs only cope with Steinway pianos. That's fine. They have enough work from restoring Steinway pianos and they do it very well. They are the most expensive restoration facility in Europe though, and you'd have to decide yourself if the premium is worth it. If you want already have a Steinway that requires restoration, and you want a new Steinway piano, I'd say that it is worth it - but I have seen others restorations and their work, whilst it might not be 'authentic' Steinway soundboards - is virtually indistinguishable from Steinways..... (duck and cover.....!!!)

Having just said that about Steinway in the UK not replacing soundboards on other makes of piano - if someone on this forum knows different then please correct me, but it was somebody at Steinways that told me that themselves. It might be different in New York of course!

Another thing to consider is that there were many makes of piano around in the late 19th and early 20th Century, and some of them were absolutely excellent - the old Irmler is very similar to Bluthner and of equal quality, but they sell for so little cash. The later Hagspiel can be very good pianos, and don't sell for very much money at all - in fact some of these pianos find themselves dumped or given away! Makes like Ronisch, Ibach, Schiedmeyer (very similar to Steinway) are all instruments that have very little value on the second hand market but that can be rebuilt to a quality equal to anything you'd buy from a tier one showroom. Communist era Bluthner and Estonia can also undergo full rebuilds and turn out equal to a new instrument.

That means that for around 10-12,000 you could have a hand built tier one grand piano. There are some issues with this route, and the main one is the unknown factor - so few of them have been rebuilt, it's difficult to know exactly how they will turn out, but your rebuilder will advise you on whether you should proceed or not. I've seen some pianos that were pretty ropey before rebuilding turned into real gems - even Challen uprights and grands which normally you wouldn't think to spend the money on, turn out to be beauties in the right workshop. Yes, you don't get your money back if you sell them, but we're talking here about having a high quality instrument, not a financial investment.

You can of course walk into a piano store and buy a new Kawai GX-2 for 16,000 ( I have also seen that price on one in the last year, although I admit it's quite low), and you'd have to decide yourself if it's worth taking the route of the rebuild, or buying the Kawai, that you can touch and play in the store before you buy. It's a leap of faith going for the rebuild. In my experience, it paid off and was well worth it, and everyone I know who has taken that route has been thrilled with the end result.

It IS difficult to find a good rebuilder - for one thing, round here there are so few very good rebuilders. Many don't have the facility to replace soundboards and planks, and many even claim that it is always best to preserve original boards and planks because it changes the piano too much - but that's usually something they say simply because they can't do the necessary work. Sometimes keeping an old board is a good idea, but usually the piano has to be young (although not always). You can't even really tell by the price an instrument is being sold for, or the price the work is being done at, if the restoration workshop is of high quality, but what I can tell you is that if someone is selling a 'fully restored' early 20th Century Steinway for less than 25,000, it most probably hasn't been fully restored (this is not always the case), and if someone is selling a fully restored Bluthner or Bechstein for 8000 - 10,000 - then again it probably hasn't been fully restored. A restorer has said to me that he has never seen a Bluthner or Bechstein from the 1890-1930 period that doesn't require a new soundboard and tuning plank, and given the pianos that I have heard, I tend to agree. That means that I, personally, wouldn't regard a Bechstein or Bluthner without a new board as anything other than a core piano, and if it is being sold as fully rebuild without a new board, I would have a hard time trusting it. Anyway it most probably wouldn't sound that good - I've seen three rebuilt Bluthners without new boards. Two of them had new roller actions installed. They had really boomy basses and glassy trebles, and a really weak tone, short and brittle if you like, in the octaves above middle C. I've seen Bechsteins like that as well. New soundboards transform these instruments into wonderful pianos.

The workshops in Poland get a bad press, mainly because there was so much terrible work coming out of Poland in the 1990s and even now some of the work there is terrible. But so is some of the work here in the UK, and I'm sure it's the same in America. There are some good Polish workshops and I know that SAP renovation and Piano Fiks are good, I've seen their work and it's pretty impressive, but I don't know the work from any other Polish workshop. SAP and Piano Fiks are not the cheapest either, so it's not really a money saving exercise going there - you have to choose it because you think their work is the best for your piano.

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#2305341 - 07/22/14 12:28 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
Karl Watson Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 383
Paul:

As a very independent-minded pianist, I can tell you, absolutely, that the rebuilt pianos coming from Astoria are just OK. I think that they're more for non-pianists, non-musicians. I have a short list of about a half-dozen boutique rebuilders who do glorious work restoring Steinways to a state that I doubt they enjoyed when new.

For an example from a somewhat larger than average rebuilding shop, about ten months ago I played a large-scale A at Cunningham's that was nearing the final phase of a comprehensive rebuild. Trust me when I say that it left NOTHING to be desired and was the very sign and symbol of everything wonderful in a Steinway piano and, in the special case of the large A scale, addressed successfully that model's drawbacks (overly thick tenor range).

I support completely Ed's contention that the really beautiful and super-fine work is to be found in the premium rebuilding shops.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

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#2305461 - 07/22/14 03:23 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1437
I only know the Hamburg rebuilds which are very good. It seems that America has a wealth of very fine rebuilders to choose from which is amazing.

Here we have one workshop that can replace soundboards in house, and the rest either don't bother or send the piano away to be done.

Even in Europe it's still not routine for full rebuilds to take place, and it's common to shim and revarnish soundboards on pianos even from the 1870s And 1880s.

It's only in the last ten to 15 years that Europe has woken up to soundboard and plank replacement although Bluthner UK started doing it in 1977 or something, so Colin Leverett told me.

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#2305466 - 07/22/14 03:33 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
KawaiDon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 1237
Loc: Orange County, CA
When buying a new piano, one has the opportunity to try the piano and decide if it is right for you.
When buying a rebuilt piano in a store, you also have the opportunity to see and hear the completed product.
When rebuilding an old piano you are relying completely on the rebuilding shop / technician to do the job well, and also to be able to customize the sound to your taste.

If you do not already work with the technician, you would want referrals to other piano owners who have previously rebuilt pianos by this technician. Then you can get an idea of the end quality of the technician's work.

So with a rebuild the problem becomes not just one of choice (of piano and technician), but of trust.
_________________________
Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America

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#2305478 - 07/22/14 03:44 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: joe80]
BerndAB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 545
Loc: Germany
Quote:

and Steinways from 80 to 100 years ago can be rebuilt to their modern day equivalent, meaning that if you have an old model B from 1890, but you want a new model B, you can have your old model B rebuilt to a specification indistinguishable from the new one. In that case the 40,000 is well worth it because a new model B is 75,000
..to be most accurate...it would demand to have a B built after 1892 because this was the year when the 85 keys grands ended in production. All Steinway grands afterwards are 88 keyers. ...for New York Made ones... from Hamburg there are known pianos built until 1906 which are 85 keyers still.


Edited by BerndAB (07/22/14 03:49 PM)
_________________________
Pls excuse any bad english.

D 1877 satin black plain

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#2305494 - 07/22/14 04:00 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
Markarian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/12
Posts: 489
Loc: Seattle Area
I know this is slightly OT, but I tend to shy away from pianos that have ivory keys. Because I grew up playing digitals the newer, plastic keys feel more natural to me. And the recent heavy-handed over-enforcement of the world ivory ban is effectively trying to retroactively punish the piano industry for killing elephants. The last thing I would want in my house is an instrument that will suddenly turn into contraband.
_________________________
2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Korg Kross 61

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#2305532 - 07/22/14 05:18 PM Re: Fully-Rebuilt Pianos Versus New Pianos [Re: Paul678]
joe80 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 1437
Hi Barnard, the 85 note model B and A are still rebuilt at Steinway Hamburg, they turn out more or less the same except for the top three notes, but yeah I know it's an important point and difference because it limits repertoire,

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